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    #4281 11/09/07 06:17 PM
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    Hi everyone I am new here. I have known my son was "gifted" since he was a small child with the high vocabulary, long attention span, interest in very unusual things, etc. But he has also had problems along the way with skipping words while reading, reversing letters, problems lining number up, etc. He was tested for the gifted program and scored very high in the verbal comprehension area,138, but much lower in the other areas with an over all 120, so he did not "qualify". I have just recently figured out he has a visual perception/tracking problem and he is now receiving therapy for this. I had a meeting with the school today to explain the 2e situation and why I believe he is gifted (the high score which would be used for gifted criteria elsewhere) and also learning disabled (the visual problem) and how I felt this had definitely hurt his scoring as he scored lower in the areas where the visual perception would hinder him. It was like hitting a brick wall. I was asked why I needed to have him labeled; and that obviously if he does have a problem he would not be able to keep up in the gifted class; and that I am just guessing that his visual problem is what caused him to score lower, etc. Now I have the options of just going away, which would not hurt him in the slightest, or pursuing this further with others higher up. I'm not sure what to do. He gets good grades and I am getting him therapy for the problems so is it worth it to pursue??

    Again, I don't think this would hurt him if I don't pursue it but it also doesn't seem right that the school system doesn't recognize 2e kids needs. I kind of feel like I need to advocate just for the sake of educating if nothing else. But I don't know if it would be worth the time and effort. I'd appreciate any thoughts. Thanks!

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    Thanks for the warm welcome! He is 9 years old and currently in 4th grade and tested at the end of 2nd grade. It is a long story, but I have been working on this for about a year and a half. The rules seem to have changed mid-stream for how you get admitted to the program. At any rate, I finally know what is going on with him with the visual disability and all, so I am excited to finally have that figured out.

    The GT thing is just a pull out for 1 hour a week. He has lots of friends in there so he would like to be in there also. I don't think he feels under challenged at all because he does struggle with things due to his visual problems. He has a wide interest in lots of topics and I guess I was hoping the GT program would give him some extra, different kinds of stuff to do that would excite him. Also, with all the struggling he has done, I would love to have his intelligence celebrated. It would be good for his self esteem.

    He is in a magnet school and it is an excellerated program already. He is making straight A's currently so he is being able to compensate for the visual problems (and he has a wonderfully understanding and accommodating teacher). That is why I am not sure it is worth pursuing. I don't know that the program is that special to warrant any further effort on my part. If I truly thought it would be wonderfully beneficial I would fight on, but I'm just not sure. But like I said before, somehow this just all doesn't seem right. The teacher today seemed to know less about 2e kids than I did, and I've only just learned about it and began researching it a week ago!!!! That seems wrong somehow.

    Why do schools not recognize the high verbal score?? From what I read on the internet this is a good indicator. However, she kept saying he was obvious advanced in the verbal area but not in other areas and she wasn't receptive to the idea that the visual perception and tracking problems could have been the cause of that. I was very disappointed in the response and the lack of understanding to be honest.

    I'd appreciate your take on the situation. Thanks!

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    I think I will definitely quote your school saying that the verbal is the best indicator!!!! :-) It is crazy how they just say whatever they feel like. I'm glad you finally got your daughter's abilities recognized. Sounds like you had quite a struggle too.

    I took in a plethora of articles today and it was still just "he doesn't meet the scores" and all the other insulting things I posted earlier. I was definitely not "heard".

    I will have to keep thinking it over but I probably will have to pursue it a bit further. If only because I want some answers as to what our system's policy is for 2e kids. Thanks so much for the best wishes!


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    Ah, so she still had to "meet the scores". I have a feeling my son wouldn't be able to do that at this time based on his visual perception problems. He has had achievement testing done and he needed 3 out of 4 above 90% and he had 2 above and 1 at 88% and 1 at 78% (math - where he struggles most), so he didn't meet that either. But they aren't low enough to show up as something being seriously wrong. His ability to adapt has been amazing to me. I just worry for the future as things get harder. But hopefully his therapy will help alot.

    Anyway, I am thinking of e-mailing the supervisor of the gifted program and just see what is done for 2e kids here. I have a feeling the answer will be nothing, but at least I will have asked. It is amazing to me that gifted kids have to fit in a "box" in order to have their "out of the box"ness celebrated. 2e's aren't going to fit in the box most of the time. So are they undeserving of having their uniquness recognized and nurtured also? I don't get it at all.

    It will be interesting to see what the reply will be. Maybe I'm not giving them enough credit. We'll see!!!! :-)


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    I am in the process of composing my e-mail to the supervisor. I have to write, think about it, let it sit, think about it some more and write some more. :-) I just want to make sure I say what I want to say.

    I think that is so wonderful that your school found another 2e on their own!!! That does show that they do care and just needed educating, and then they were able to run with the information. Good for you and good for them! That was my biggest problem with the teacher I talked to. She obviously did not know what I was talking about but was totally uninterested in hearing about it. I would hope these educators would want to do all they can to serve the children that they teach. You have given me hope that maybe others will be willing to at least listen to me. I am also hopeful that the supervisor of this entire county's gifted program will at least be familiar with 2e and can direct me in what steps are being taken to help this particular population of gifted children.

    You have been so supportive and I really appreciate that. I don't know anyone else with a 2e (although I am sure I actually do know them but they haven't been identified) so no one else really understands what I am going through. It helps to talk with some else that has been there. Thank you so much!!!! :-)

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    The e-mail is gone, now to just wait. I honestly don't think it will do any good but maybe I can get a few answers. Sounds like you have lots of other stuff going on with your kids. My sister skipped a grade back in grade school and I've known one child now that skipped a grade but they don't seem to do it as often as they used to. Has that worked well with your DS?

    My son is no where near needing to skip a grade. He isn't nearly as advanced as many of these kids being talked about on this board. But he is advanced in certain areas and I would liked those nurtured. I guess we'll see if the school system has anything they can offer and if not, I will just keep providing the opportunities myself. I'll let you know when/if I hear something back.

    Thanks!

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    No oil here, sadly. The supervisor replied with a "he doesn't meet the scores" reply and totally ignored all my questioning about the states recognition/alternative testing/etc. for 2e kids which is what my e-mail was about. I didn't even ask for anything for my DS I just gave her a quick overview of what we have gone through and asked for general info about how 2e kids are identified and helped in our state. I guess that means they aren't. Sigh.....I did e-mail her back asking for further clarification but I don't think I will get anything.

    Oh she did say he had a VERY high verbal score and hopefully his achievement testing would be higher in the future. Doesn't sound like she's getting the whole visual tracking/perception issue does it??

    Oh well, I don't know where I could go from here. I'll have to give it some thought. Brick wall after brick wall. I'm just so disappointed in these educators, although I don't know what I was expecting. Maybe I'll come up with something else to do. But what??????

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    Thanks again for your encouraging words. I hope things continue to go well with your children, it sounds like you are doing a great job finding what is best for them.

    As for the scores, I guess we'll see!!! :-)

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    Hi EandCmom,
    I wanted to welcome you. I really enjoyed the book "Uniquely Gifted." It was the first "Gifted" book I ever read. I think you might enjoy it - sort of like having a great party where everyone attending is an expert on some aspect of "2E."

    I'm glad that you are making space for yourself here on this board even though your son doesn't remind you of some of the children here. In my view it's all about meeting the educational needs of the child that wouldn't be met in a regular classroom. I don't care how severe the need is - or how many subjects it is in - a need is a need is a need!

    I'm so glad that you have a school which gives all the children an accelerated curriculum. Sounds like a pretty good fit to start with, which is something to celebrate. I'm hoping that the visual issues clear up with the therapy - that would be so wonderful.

    Smiles,
    Trinity


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    Hi Trinity! Thanks for the welcome too.

    I got a call from the supervisor today and she was WONDERFUL and she got what I was saying and she understood where I was coming from and I finally felt heard!!!!! Of course, our state doesn't have any alternative criteria to help right now but she was hopeful after he has been in therapy for awhile, his scores might be such that he would qualify. I don't really care about that at this point but it is nice that someone finally got what I was saying!!!! And was interested and wanted to know more!!! :-)

    I have already ordered "Uniquely Gifted" from my library and I am really looking forward to reading it. I am so thrilled to finally understand what is going on with my DS and can't wait to learn more. I'm a researcher (I research EVERYTHING)so I would love any more suggestions if anyone has any more.

    Thanks!

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    Originally Posted by EandCmom
    I got a call from the supervisor today and she was WONDERFUL and she got what I was saying and she understood where I was coming from and I finally felt heard!!!!!

    Yippee!
    Big Smiles,
    Trinity


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    Good to hear that someone was using their listening ears! I have a 2E son age 8. It has taken me 4 years to finally get to the point that his school will consider Gifted and Learning disabled as a combined difficulty. The biggest issue we have is that his processing and organization scores are significantly lower than his Verbal and Non Verbal scores. However, they are not the required 2 standard deviations below normal that would qualify him for services. But they are low enough that they hold him back in his other scores and on his Full scale IQ so that he doesn't meet the magic 130.
    Oddly enough getting a possible ADHD and possible Bi-Polar DX label did get him services and they are working on the processing and organization under a designation of Other Health Impairment.
    I think my point is don't give up and sometimes a back door approach works.
    After observing him, the school is convinced that he is most likely in the PG range of gifted and is working on figuring out what to change to provide a challenging education while still meeting his social/emotional needs. That meeting is set for later this month...

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    EandC,
    I'm curious what measurement was used to evaluate his abilities? I'm also curious, with scatter that would cause a full standard deviation+ drop between VERBAL and Overall IQ, what the other scores were. If it was the WISC IV, then what were his VCI, PRI, WMI and PSI scores?



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    The test was the WISC-IV and I'm not completely sure what the VCI, etc. you asked about are but I'm assuming this is verbal comprehension, perceptual reasoning, etc. Going on that assumption, the VCI was 138, the PRI was 119, the WMI was 107 and the PSI 85 and the full scale was 120. The very low PSI was the killer. We have since found out he has a visual perception/tracking problem which causes problems with the way he perceives things. This causes problems with lining numbers up, patterns, etc. This is what I believe caused the skew in the scores but of course I have no proof of that.

    Any opinion or advice would be most welcome!!! :-)

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    The PSI was 6 in coding and 9 in symbol search. They told me he had very, very slow performance and was just determined to do it all perfectly but couldn't do it quickly at all. So I don't know if what he did get finished he got right or if he was slow and still missing things. They didn't tell me that. Knowing what I know now, it all makes sense to me that his visual issues really hurt him in these areas, but again, that doesn't seem to count.

    He is progressing with his visual problems and we are seeing some improvement already which is very exciting!!! I don't know - I guess I could request that he be tested again in the spring but I'm not sure they would do it. Also, he has gotten kind of discouraged with the whole process and when we talked about it the other day, he said he just wanted to quit pursuing it. I don't know of any other options I have anyway (other than private testing and I'm just not sure what good that would realistically do him) so I guess I'm going to have to let it go at this point. Unless anyone has any other suggestions???

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    I appreciate your interest as "an intrigued third party"!! :-) He has taken the TerraNova test and that is it. They take them every spring so he'll take them again about April. The supervisor I talked to was hopeful the results would be wonderful this time (I'm not convinced they will be) so that that would start the ball rolling again. But we'll see!

    He does know too much about the whole thing. The problem is that about 1/4 of his class is in this program and just about all of his good friends are and he wants to be in there too. He understands what it is all about because he has asked and asked and he won't be put off by little answers! LOL!!! This is the kid that at 4 told me "I know you're my mom because I grew inside of you, but how do I know my daddy is my daddy?" and I started off with small answers but he would not be put off until I had explained the whole thing! :-) He will not be put off when he wants to know something and I try to be as honest as I can be with my kids, so I have answered his questions, for better or worse. He might be freaked out if we tried again, and that is another reason I'm not sure that it is worth it. I just don't know. Sometimes it's so hard to know what is the right thing to do!

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    My nine year old is similar in some ways, especially the advanced vocabulary, sometimes reversing letters and numbers, long attention span (at least for things he is interested in), interest in very unusual things, but he skipped lines instead of words and would lose his place while reading, problems lining numbers up (long division was difficult for him until we just let him have a whole sheet of paper for each problem and he had plenty of room to write) and we use Aleks for math now so it doesn't require that he do very many problems before it lets him move on. But my son's problem is visual motor integration and focusing when his eyes are tired.

    When my son was tested at age 7 he could read, at most, one paragraph from a magazine like Newsweek as he did at the optometrist's office, before he would start skipping lines. But even with vision focusing and tracking problems he scored high on visual perceptual, so apparently his eyes were not tired at the time he took this test. If his eyes were tired I don't think he would have been able to do this. The educational psychologist and developmental pediatrician noticed that he seemed to have some vision problems when they tested him, so we took him to a developmental psychologist and we did vision therapy with flipper glasses at home. It helped some but he still doesn't read a lot on his own except on the computer--he likes text based rpg games, mmorpg games, and simulation games and I found that some of these require fairly high level reading ability and comprehension. He prefers reading magazines like Game Informer or Popular Science and National Geographic so the things he does read contain a higher vocabulary level than the books his older gifted friends read so I think this is why his vocabulary level and comprehension are probably higher than theirs even though one of his gifted friends (4 years older) reads all the time. My son often uses this advanced vocabulary in his speech and last year at a Cub Scout event this friend, who was at the event to watch his younger brother and my son compete in the pinewood derby, asked his mother (a teacher) why my son knew so many words and why he seemed so much smarter than the other kids he knew (including gifted kids). I loved it that the special education director was sitting right in front of her when he asked this and I am pretty sure he heard us talking. When we took the results of my son's WIAT to this special ed director he told us that they had never seen a child like my son before and it would be difficult to provide an appropriate education for him at our small town school, so we got nothing from our school. When we complained to the superintendent, he told us we needed to continue homeschooling. When we contacted the state gifted coordinator's office, they told me there is no law in our state requiring an appropriate education for 2E kids, so we have no choice but to homeschool.

    I guess I hoped that the special ed director might be interested in how he was learning, and what simple things we did to allow him to learn--like typing and using the computer and doing spelling and tests orally instead of having to write and not requiring that he "color in the lines." I thought he might be interested, just in case they did see another kid like my son. But the sad truth is they don't care. In my state, they are not going to do any more than they have to do, which is one reason we have mediocre schools where we live.

    My son has never had an IQ test because in addition to our not being able to afford it, I don't believe the results would be accurate because of his sensory and motor problems. The certified educational psychologist who tested him told us that my son would need to take the test over more than one day because of his issues. He also predicted a score that is in the range of what Davidson requires but we still don't plan to have his IQ tested. He will, however, take the Explore test and I am trying to figure out what accommodations to ask for.

    I talked to some of my son's gifted public schooled friends about their "gifted classes" and they don't sound like much to me, just a one hour pull-out. His friend said they ask questions that my son would be really good at answering but they are not allowed to work above grade level in regular classes unless they take a test to skip a grade and score above 90%. Since each school is allowed to come up with their own tests and they don't like kids to be working above grade level and therefore discourage it, nobody passes them. So almost all gifted kids at this school are only doing grade level work and they are not challenged. I think these tests might be even harder for 2E kids to pass.

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    Dottie,

    Can you tell me what kind of supportive documentation they want? We don't have an IEP since my son has been homeschooled since he finished Kindergarten. One of his problems in Kindergarten was that he couldn't color in the lines, so filling in bubbles will be difficult. He can do it now, but slowly, and if he has to erase something he will be in trouble.

    He will be seeing the developmental optometrist tomorrow to see if he still has vision problems. If he does, I will try to get a statement from him about vision issues. I have referrals to see the developmental pediatrician and neurologist so maybe I can get statements about his issues from them, if we can get in to see them before the testing date. Do you think this will be enough?

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    Lori - My son does visual therapy on a computer program at home every day for 20 minutes and then once a week for 30 to 45 minutes at the therapist's office. I found the doctor on this website http://covd.org. You may have already gone through these kinds of hoops since your child has received some vision therapy but it doesn't sound like the same kind of thing my son does. I hope Dottie's information helps you get the accommodations your DS needs! :-)

    Dottie - thanks for your encouragement. Maybe one day his abilities will be recognized, but you're right, when they get older it really isn't that important, just as long as they are getting appropriately challenging work. His teacher gets it at least and she is very supportive. Thanks!

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    Dottie,

    Thank you. That is helpful.

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    EandCmom,

    Thanks. Hopefully if he needs further vision therapy, we can do most of it at home.

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    Lori:

    You said you were told "it would be difficult to provide an appropriate education for him at our small town school, so we got nothing from our school. When we complained to the superintendent, he told us we needed to continue homeschooling. When we contacted the state gifted coordinator's office, they told me there is no law in our state requiring an appropriate education for 2E kids, so we have no choice but to homeschool."

    All I can say is how awful that they said there was nothing your state's schools could do!!! He does sound as if he has some similar problems to my DS as far as the visual issues though. It is interesting that he didn't test as having a perceptual problem.

    The doctor showed me one test they did for my son where he had to read a list of numbers going up and down and he was timed doing this. He was then given the same numbers to read going across. Theoretically they should be read during the same amount of time. However, the up and down reading was much faster than the across reading. My son made a comment about how the numbers were all over the place and not in a line and how hard it was to read them that way!!! I was shocked because I saw the numbers and they were in perfectly straight lines. It made me realize how things are perceived by him and how this could definitely cause him problems with reading and with numbers. Has your son made any comments such as this to let you know what he is perceiving as he looks at the numbers or when he reads? If nothing else it has helped me to relate to what he is going through a little better.

    I hope you can do any further therapy at home too. The doctor's who specialize in this kind of thing are few and far between. At least in my area they are. I hope you get some answers from the doctor's you are taking him too and I really hope you get the accommodations he needs. If he needed glasses they'd let him use those! It's so much harder with the problems that can't be "seen".

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    The optometrist did not recommend further vision therapy, since the therapy my son did have did all it could do, and my son did not need glasses. He said my son does have some problems related to vision but he says it is something glasses will not fix. We told him about the headaches, slight lack of coordination, low tone, vestibular and proprioceptive issues, occasionally reversing letters and numbers and that we were just looking for answers and wanted to see if his vision has anything to do with these problems. He said it did, but it wasn't something he could do anything about. He recommend some exercises where my son has to catch different sized balls that I throw to him. There is another where I have to hold a small flashlight with one hand and have him look from that to my other hand that I move up and down--I guess this is to help with tracking. My son asked if we could do this without the flashlight since he is sensitive to the light. The optometrist is supposed to send a report to the developmental pediatrician--so we have one more piece to add to the puzzle.

    My son absolutely could not tolerate the "puff test" that is part of a regular eye exam. I don't know if this is a sensory issue or not. He knows in his head that it isn't anything to be afraid of. He watched his dad have it done and the lady that did the testing showed him the screen that she looked at while doing the testing, and none of it made any difference. I guess he has some kind of "puff test phobia" or something. He says he knows this fear is irrational but can't seem to overcome it.

    Tomorrow I will have him practice coloring in bubble sheets to see if he can do it without accommodations for testing.

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    Oh Lori -
    I'm sorry to hear that the Optomitrist doesn't have anything further to offer, although he did confirm that vision is involved. I hope the Developmental Ped can offer you more help.

    I hate that Puff test too! I don't see how anyone can wear contact lenses.

    Smiles,
    Trin


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    Lori, was the doctor a FCOVD??? These guys are the specialists in the vision tracking/perception/etc. problems. My optometrist said he didn't know of anything to do for my DS's problems but he admitted he didn't know much about it. These specialists are very scattered about. Did he do a full screening on your DS? My child had about an hour to an hour and a half full screening before they determined his problems. You may have already gone through all of this but I am kind of surprised the doctor didn't have anything to help you.

    Also, alot of doctor's don't do the "puff" test anymore. There is a new glaucoma test that doesn't use the puff. My doctor has used the new test for the last few years on me. I haven't had a puff test in probably at least 5 years. You might see if your doctor knows about the other kind of test.

    Hopefully the other doctor's will have something else to offer you!! :-)

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    Hi EandCmom --

    This has been very interesting to follow, since I'm wondering if DS8 has a "tracking" problem. What does FCOVD stand for?

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    Hi bk1! My link I posted above doesn't go where I wanted it to go!!! Sorry! Here is one I hope works http://www.covd.org/ .A FCOVD is a Fellow of College of Optometrists in Vision Development(FCOVD). They do very specialized testing and therapy for different visual problems. You should check out this site to see if it sounds like it is something that could help your child. They have a doctor finder and you type in your zip code and it finds ones in your area. In a 100 mile area around me there are only about 10 so there aren't lots of them out there. Luckily there is one about 30 minutes from where I live so I am able to take my child for therapy once a week and he does therapy on the computer for 20 minutes every other day. It has been wonderful and I am seeing results with him already!

    Hope this helps! :-)

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    Your reply was faster than a speeding bullet! Thanks!

    The link worked. There are two within 2 miles in my very dense urban neighborhood. Now if they take my insurance....

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    Also, with your child's varied scores, it might be worth making a pitch to evaluate using the GAI (Gifted Ability Index, I think) which is measured using just VCI and PR. See http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/PDF_files/NewWISC.pdf

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    Wow, 2 within 2 miles!!! That is fantastic! Hopefully they will take your insurance. I have no vision insurance and my medical won't cover it, so I am paying for it all. But it is worth it as I can see it helping him already and he's only been doing it for 6 weeks.

    Thanks for the link too - he comes up with a 129!! So close, yet so still so far...... LOL! Actually I am good with the whole situation as it stands. I'll just continue doing what I am doing as far as doing enrichment type activities and I don't think he'll miss out on too much. (I hope anyway!!) :-)

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