Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Gifted and Hitting a Wall

VENTING!
OK, I�ve had it with my DS (10). As DH put it recently (outside of DS�s hearing) DS is the dumbest bright kid he�s ever known. I might change the dumbest to most stubborn and shortsighted but understand where DH is coming from.

How hard is to grasp that if you really don�t like doing something, doing it right the first time means less time spent doing it overall?

How difficult is it to actually double check tests and homework for careless errors?

How hard is it to remember that homework comes before free time after school and stop throwing a temper tantrum daily?

I am spending most of my time redirecting DS (at this point often very loudly) to do the need to things before the want to activities.

Since Christmas, DS�s grades have dropped in all subjects from high A�s to mid B-C range. It isn�t that he doesn�t get the material, he just doesn�t want to double check ANYTHING and is rushing through stuff and not thinking about his answers. Often, he isn�t even reading the directions and does the entire assignment wrong. Any discussion of the issue with him leads to melt downs and temper tantrums. DH and I constantly try to get him to understand that a few errors are fine and getting something wrong because you don�t understand the concept is fine. It is only amount of correctable (if he double checked his work) errors that is causing our concern.

I have tried many incentive programs, positive reinforcements, negative consequences, calm discussions about his thoughts and such about his options and what he thinks is going on. I have talked with his teachers who are as frustrated as DH and I. We are all out of ideas. All of us know that DS has the ability to do the work; he just doesn�t appear to be putting any effort into it. I know DS is getting very anxious about school. He is hiding his tests from me, preferring to spend recess inside for not getting them signed than bring them home for DH and I to see. He also is tearing the grades of the top of his class work before bringing them home. I know he is unhappy with how he is doing, but his answer is that he�s not good at math, reading etc.

I am thinking about having him write 1 page essays for me about the impact of not paying attention to details and double checking his work when he brings home work that is below a B due to rushing or carelessness. Most of his careless mistakes are in how he is spelling in his words in essays or how is forming the letters in cursive. Ls and bs are the biggest problem. When he is rushing (apparently the written assignments are timed) he skips words, endings of words or just doesn�t back up his conclusions. DS really hates to physically write. It is still painful both physically and emotionally for him to write. However, I am wondering if going through extra writing assignments from me might get the point across that if he doesn�t want to spend more time writing, he needs to pay attention to his other assignments? It seems a bit cruel knowing that he has processing speed issues and dysgraphia, however, I am worried that if he doesn�t break through this wall, he is going to completely give up on school and learning.

Outside of school, he also has little to no interest in any activities that take attention to detail or effort.. He won�t do pleasure reading, fun math or any kind of writing. I do think that his ADHD type issues are contributing to his problems but our options are limited to behavioral interventions (that aren�t working) due to other health issues.

Sorry for the very down post, but I�m so frustrated and tired of daily battles. I have to make him do his homework, but I�m to the point of dreading to see him get off the bus in the afternoons. I�m trying to stay positive with him and failing miserably. At this point despite the test scores, I would have a hard time as a teacher believing that this student is gifted. As his parent, I am not convinced that he belongs in the gifted program right now even knowing that good grades are not required to be gifted!

Thanks for letting me vent! I know I'm whining and appreciate this forum to do so. DH is very supportive but out of ideas and family just thinks we "pushed" DS too hard and his current work is too hard for him and we should accept that he really isn't capable of the work. Maybe that is true, but then I would think we'd be seeing concept and comprehension problems not simple errors. Even his teacher says that if she asks DS to answer a question verbally, she gets a completely different level of answer than he shows in seat work.

Thanks Again!

oh! *hug* I wish i could offer some help..... but at least I have shoulder to cry on.....

Thanks 'Soup and good luck on those applications

"If you run into a wall, don't turn around and give up. Figure out how to climb it, go through it, or work around it."
Michael Jordan

Throwing out some ideas to help you find a way over, through or around this wall.

What kind of things do interest him?


I'd focus my efforts on changing this. There's a quote I've been trying to put into practice since reading Gordon Nuefeld's Hold Onto Your Kids. He talks about "connection before direction."

Can you focus on making a strong connection with your son when he gets off the bus? I'd put aside the homework issue until after this has been accomplished.

Glad you're not giving up!

so sorry you are going through all this. It sounds quite frustrating. I don't know if you really want any advice or thoughts on this, I would assume so...but if you didn't want any words of advice then feel free to skip on to the next post from someone, LOL.

In reading your post it sounds like DS is gifted, but that he also has difficulty processing information, focusing on details, organizing data, etc. You mentioned Dysgraphia and "ADHD type issues" does he also have an ADHD diagnosis? Because what you are describing sounds a lot like ADHD. I have worked with lots of intelligent and some gifted children with ADHD that have similar problems with assignments. It could also be some other type of learning disorder, NVLD (I honestly don't know much about this one but thought I would throw it out there). It really doesn't sound like he is benefiting at all from rushing through things. The anxiety, the tantrums, the meltdowns, none of that sounds fun at all. He obviously isn't gaining from that and doesn't feel confident in himself in those areas at all. It sounds to me that he has limited control over these behaviors and they are a result of something else going on with him. And the more anxious he becomes about it, the more mistakes and things he will make.

I would suggest pursuing finding out more about what could be causing things difficulties and maybe adjusting his workload based on this, or having him do his assignments differently (typing, etc.). I do think it is important to teach him attention to detail, you don't want to let everything slide. But if it is truly something that is that hard for him to do and has limited control over, then he needs the tools to help him to be successful and it is not fair to expect him to be able to perform in that way.

And as to the writing assignment you were thinking about giving him. I say no way to that one. I see what could make you think that would be a good idea, but it would make things a lot worse by pushing that. Especially since he isn't doing it on purpose and is just going to make him feel worse. I do understand being that frustrated though and wondering what in the world you are supposed to do and how to teach him. We have had many times with our DS4 that we wonder how he could possibly be so smart, and yet so dumb as well. I feel bad saying that, but it is true. Maybe not the best way of putting it, but true nonetheless.

Hope that is somewhat helpful. Just my 2 cents. : )

I just realized that you mentioned this has been doing on since Christmas. Is this a new issue? If so then I wouldn't necessarily suspect ADHD. Thought I would mention that, I guess I would need to know more about it.

Sounds like he does not like to write and both of you are focusing too much on his weakness with it?

What are the consequences of backing off and letting him take the lead? Will Bs and Cs for a few weeks hurt him down the line?

How about some cash incentives? We had offered $8.00 per A and $6.00 per high B (90-92%) when they had quarter report cards. All A�s (93% and up) earned a $50.00 bonus. Since they are now on semesters, the incentives have doubled.

We have never really given allowance for chores, but rather bought what they needed and given money for their wants as they earned it by reading books and writing a report for us or earning good grades at school. In some cases we rewarded the effort rather than the result.

I know this is a controversial approach. They are no longer paid a penny per page for outside reading-they simply read for pleasure. If we still paid that rate we would be broke, so I guess this method at the very least didn�t backfire.

*Next time he earns a good grade, ask him how it makes him feel. Then tell him to remember that feeling the next time he has to chose between rushing through an assignment or taking a little extra care while completing it.

I definitely agree with some of what Shelly said. If he's hiding tests, showing frustration, and having meltdowns, it does not sound like a child who is deriving any personal benefit from not double-checking his work. If this has only been going on since Christmas, is there some major event that has recently occured that could be affecting him?

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, I am looking for suggestions and help!

Shellymos, He does have an diagnosis of ADHD type behaviors and an official LD of LD- undefined. He is on an IEP to help him with the behavioral issue, impulse control, organization and stuff like that. So far it isn't evident that it is helping. However, he is on a medication for another medical that contradicts with the ADHD medications so that is not an option. So while the drop in grades is more recent, the behaviors are ongoing.

I would love to get him the accomodation to type his assignments. This is one place that the school will not budge. His fine motor delay at his most recent evealuation was 77% of age level. He has to be 74% to get accomodations.

Inky, the only things that interest him outside of school are music (Drums, Oboe and Piano.) Not practicing LOL, but he really enjoys just goofing off with them. He spends alot of time playing with Legos and building all sorts of spaceships. Other interests are bakugon(sp), animals, a beginning interest in cooking, roughhousing with Mom and being outside.

I have tried to let home work wait until after we have some time to go for a walk, or goof off together for a while. However, the melt downs and temper tantrums are worse and homework takes even longer than when I give him a 15 minute snack break and then have him start the assignments. So I've started trying to go for our walk after homework is done. This works better when homework actually gets done in less than 3 hours....

Austin, the consequences of the b's and c's are that he may not be allowed to participate in the gifted program next year and they could pull him from his subject advancement in math and Reading. At this point maybe that is an acceptable consequence for his actions but repeating this same coursework next year sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Thanks again all

How frustrating! Sounds like some accomodations would help a lot.

You say the school won't budge, so you must have tried to reason with them already. It should be plain enough for them to see the change in your son and want to help him do the quality of work he was doing before.

Is there anyway to go around, or over or smash through the 74%cut off? (paraphrasing Michael Jordan quote)


What else has changed since he was getting A's? something besides the medications?

Is your son aware of these consequences?

What if you approached him with the view from where you are sitting and asked him to collaborate with you on a solution.
Or let him take the lead on problem solving?

Your reason to do homework first makes sense. It may be too high a goal to have ALL the homework finished before going on a walk. What about setting a goal to spend one hour on the most important homework and then a walk (or Lego break), followed by another hour if needed? 3 hours seems like a lot.

I'd put a positive spin on his interests as they're great opportunities to develop attention to detail and effort (cooking, Legos, music, animals). Maybe pointing out his strengths in these areas will help.

My 6-yr-old son sounds like a miniature version of yours...

We have tried to make the rule-- no playing with your friend until homework is done-- but we find it makes homework drag out LONGER. He seems unable to see the logic of: finish your homework quickly first and then you can play all afternoon. This works on every other child I have ever known. Instead, he sits at the table agonizing and the whole thing takes longer and we all wind up frustrated.

For us it works better to let him play and get his yayas out, then do his homework, say, after he has eaten dinner, with dessert as the payoff.

But then I'm talking about first grade homework-- just busywork, really. I don't know what I'll do when he's 10.

But I agree that 3 hours of homework sounds like too much for anyone.

From recent research my DH has done into the brain - it's apparently been reported lately that 10 minutes on one subject, a quick break and 10 minutes on another subject works best for MOST humans - anyone. So I believe switching subjects - or taking breaks is the way to go - and I've heard positive things about many ED and LD people finding comfort outside - so outdoors - and extra oxygen to the brain - always a good idea. Spend time around trees!

Sorry you are facing this situation. I know I could be in it myself in a while. Our doctor said that without treatement ADHD may well cause a decline in DS's performance. However, also trying to read that book on Misdiagnosis and paying attention to Dr. Ruf's site and the over prescription of medication for ADHD -as maybe our kids don't have it at all? I've wondered too how their performance is affected if you give them medication that affects their alpha waves - or brain in general ....when perhaps that's where their genius is coming from?

Has anyone on this site collected articles/resources together regarding Misdiagnosis and/or advoacy attempts - perhaps successful ones regarding allowing a child to type instead of write? It seems a LOT of parents are having this issue and if your child hates to write of course they will hate 3 hrs of work! I keep thinking it would be easier for us as indivdual parents to lobby the schools - if we have a collected body of success stories/articles/ to give- to the schools, to the parent advocacy groups working right now with WAshington etc.

Anyone else feel a need to divide up the current resources section on this sight into more "manageable" chunks / topics? I would need to spend a little more time there analyzing it myself - but I don't think this has been done yet.

That is really tough that his other medications would not work with ADHD medications. I am not always a fan of medication, but with a kid who is clearly struggling this much it would definitely be something to consider if you didn't have that issue. Wow, 3 hours on homework. That is a really long time. Now I know somedays it probably goes quicker, and that probably some of it is spent being distracted, trying to get back on task, reminding him, etc (I used to be a therapist and worked lots with children and families in a school, and I worked a lot with kids with ADHD as well as other issues, so I do get it). But still, that is too much for all of you to handle. Does the school know it is taking that long? I know you run the risk of having him pulled from the gifted program if they reduce workload so this is a tough issue, but what is going on doesn't seem to be working for anyone...it exhausts me just thinking about it. Maybe you could meet with the school and let them know how long he is spending on it. When I had this issue before with students I would work with the teachers and determine an agreed up time that was acceptable to spend on work. (honestly this may be surprising but it averages about 10 minutes per grade). Now with the added ADHD I would add a little more time, but not tons more. When time is up, time is up...whatever is done goes in the bag. It just can't go on like that for anyone's sake. And also if you do feel like he is just lollygagging at times...it could speed him up and help him to be more focused. Just a thought, not the best idea ever but a thought : )

Just want to add that another point to note is that the problem often occurs when he has to write quickly (timed exercises) and that he hates writing. These two together, form a major obstacle to learning for many bright people- their writing cannot keep up with the flow of ideas in their brain.
So... how's about he's allowed to keyboard his assignments? Use a laptop in class? There is also fairly cheap software available now to automatically type what you speak into the computer. If assignments are assessing his thinking, then the school should have no problem with helping your son to find alternative ways to get his ideas down. (Also check out software like Inspiration - for 'brainstorming' ideas, and then organising them...)

I agree with previous comments, that lessening the pressure on your son is the major goal at the moment

In reading your initial post a few red flags jumped out at me. I keep thinking something else may be going on here especially since the school work issues began around December.
Couple of things:
Could he be depressed? 10 is the beginning of a difficult time for many kids. Would it make sense to have a professional assess him for this? Did something happen at school? Is he being bullied? Girl troubles? Is he doing this because he wants out of the gifted program (maybe doesn't like the kids or teacher)? Has there been a new teacher or student since December??? It just seems like there's something else going on here. In my work as a behavior analyst, when I run into such cases there's usually a new variable like a new student or something that caused the change. Just a thought.
I'm astonished that the school wont allow your son to type when hand writing is a known area of need. The one good thing I will say about our NJ district is there's almost no emphasis on handwriting. This has been good and bad, but mostly good in my DS7's case. I'm not familiar with the 74% rule. Maybe you could ask for a "due process" hearing and fight the school for accommodations. ??? In NJ if a parent of a child with an IEP drops the "due process" line, schools ultimately wave the white flag of surrender because they don't want to go to court.
My heart aches for you. Sometimes I worry that I will be in your situation if my DS7 doesn't get it through his head that he needs to check his work and not be careless. He doesn't have ADHD but he is the classic absent minded professor.
I wish you the best with this. Keep us posted. This is a wonderful forum, especially when times are tough and no one else seems to understand.

FrNJMom - yes, I thought so too...total non-expert however.
Throwing in my two cents, yes the change sounds very abrupt! You should look for a particular event that might have triggered the sudden change in outlook for your ds. Might be something a counselor could work on with him. I was told by a dev. pediatrician that some kids just need a neutral party to talk to sometimes to work out issues they have a hard time either telling more familiar people about, or even realizing themselves that they are occuring. This makes sense to me. Good luck to you and ds, Elh!

I think for my son, 10 has been a difficult age. I have noticed that he seems more concerned about not appearing "weak" or different in any way. A few years ago he said he didn't care what other people thought. I never really believed this. It looked to me like he at least cared a little because he always tried to hide his handwriting and drawing at Cub Scouts, but he refused to admit it.

Now there seems to be more of an effort to prove that he is tough and things like getting the biggest bruise while playing paintball is something to be proud of. He seems more willing to try things that might involve pain.

He heard me talking to my special ed teacher friend about his handwriting issues and how I just couldn't understand why any teacher would have a problem with letting those kids who have difficulty getting their thoughts on paper type. She agreed with me that typing should be allowed for kids like my son, but my son talked to me about this later. He said it is not that easy. Even if the teachers did allow typing, the other kids would find out about it and he would not want anyone to think that he had an unfair advantage or that he wasn't good at something. My son says he would only feel comfortable learning around other twice exceptional kids, and since that isn't possible at our school, we have to homeschool.

I can't tell you how much your responses have helped to get me down off that ledge before I jumped.

Just to clarify, the 3 hours/night homework is NOT due to the school. If he sat down and just did it it would be less than an hour of homework. It is the temper tanrums, unreadable answers and corrections required that add up to so much time. They are not allowed to bring in uncorrected homework. The parents are responsible for making sure the homework is correct. On the occassional good night, DS spends less than an hour on the same assignments that the next night take 3 hours.

I do agree that there could be a social aspect to the problem. Although most of his close friends are also in the fast learner class (in fact the school did that deliberately for him this year), he still stands out for how he thinks and reasons. he doesn't stand out necessarily for his grades (especially now :)) but I think there is pressure both to know all the answers and also to not be too different. That would be hard to balance.

I also do think that he may be depressed, One set of grandparents who he saw almost daily moved to FL the end of Jan and took along their dogs. Also, soccer season ended and he wasn't able to participate in the Spring season due to my not knowing the sign up date.

regarding ADHD, his teacher says that he isn't one of her behavior problems in class. I can't help think that he holds it together in class and just doesn't have anything left by the time he gets home.

We do reward good report cards with his choice of a specific amount of money or a special treat. We define a good report card as maintaining an A or bringing up a grade at least 3 percentage points. A's can be any percentage 100-94. Anything else if it improves at least 3% points gets added to the pot. We don't take anything away for grades that drop but they also don't add to the pot. We also reward good homework nights (no temper tantrums or melt downs) neat writing, less than 5 corrections to try to make things more immediate.

I am considering due process but really other than the typing issue (which is major) his school has done things for him that they have never tried before. I don't want to ruin an overall good working relationship. His next IEP meeting is late April.
We have tried to get him to understand that his current actions can impact what he is doing next year but either he wants to lose the accomodations or just can't see that far ahead yet.

So at this point I think I'm going to try breaking up the homework into smaller pieces with short breaks. We did that a couple years ago but it might be time to try it again. I'm going to try even harder to keep my cool with him. I'm going to ask his Gifted Teacher, Emotional Support teacher and Guidance councelor to see what they can find out.

Thanks all for helping me to develop a plan. I do feel better

EL,

Is there a time of day he does his HW best? Can you set a ritual?

A good friend does his best HW from 4am to 7am and when we were roommates, it drove me nuts to hear him muttering over his homework. He would fix his tea, put is blanket over his shoulders, then get to work. I know another high achiever who goes to bed at 9pm then gets up at 3 am. If I have some very hard things to think about, I like to take a nap from 4pm to 8pm then work all night.

Even an hour of homework seems like a lot at that age, I think. Especially if it's every night. IMHO...

My friend had success with "You're only doing homework for 1hr each night. You get done what you get done." For some reason, this helped her to focus and she actually gets more done.

My son needed frequent breaks. Although it makes it seem like homework is going on all night, he got it done that way.

Update: I heard back from the school. They think that this is a problem that we shouldn't try to solve. Instead, it is a good learning experience for him to learn to be bored and to handle frustration. No comments from them on the spread between comprehension and processing speed. No comments on how to help him get his mind and hands working together. Just have him communicate his frustrations but we aren't going to look at changing anything. Oh, but I can schedule a conference if I want...

Now that I've banged my head a few times on the desk, deleted an emotional response and am feeling slightly catatonic. I'm going to go through his Evals with a fine tooth comb, list out the places that DS is struggling in terms of the eval results and set up the darn meeting. I may be looking at threatening due process.

On the home front, breaking the homework up into smaller doses is helping

i think that they are inviting you to take it to the next level

Although I am one for "playing politics" for as long as it takes, it sounds like the time has come to raise the bar. I would follow the chain of command up the ladder until you find someone that gives a crap. Enough of nice, it's not working.

I would call a meeting and come prepared with SENG-style information on behaviors for gifted kids -- and 2E kids. whether or not he actually GOEs to the gifted program it is worth fighting to keep him eligible.

Argh!!! Yes. Time to move up the food chain.

So sorry!

Your posts sounds too familiar :S....


Try a quiet corner with headphones that block out all sound (or even plays music...classical)

I made my teen wear these recently and he was able focus on his work better and I placed his desk in a corner where there would be no distractions. Now that he is able to describe and communicate what keeps him from completing his assignments, he says the earphones help him tremendously. Sometimes, I have to remind him it's time for bed because he had no idea how much time has passed. I wish I thought of this earlier when he was in elementary school.

Anyway, I think the classroom just naturally has too many things to take away his concentration. He was minimally engaged in his assignments and knew what everyone else was doing as well as where the missing pencil is.

Update:
We had another school meeting recently. I think that the specials (GT teacher, Emotional support and Guidence Councelor) in the room finally got the problem. The regular classroom teachers for this year and next seem resistant (maybe just not understanding that gifted does not always mean high acheiving) to understanding the issues for DS.

I'm on a teeter-totter right now. I'm thrilled that some of the issues I've been trying to get across have reached some ears. We will be making some changes to his IEP. Also, there is talk (FINALLY!) of letting DS keyboard at least some of his writing assignments if he puts the effort in this summer to bring up his typing speed. Also the specials all seem to be in agreement that the volume of work DS is expected to do is more than he can physically and emotionally handle right now and exceeds that required of his age peers.

Now, I'll be a bit more optomistic if the regular teacher gets a better understanding of 2E in the classroom. I got the impression that she might not have every knowingly had a 2E child in her class. Comments like he lacks focus and direction, needs to pay attention better, doesn't get straight 100's, he could be doing more to get further ahead but lacks ambition make me concerned. She seems to equate gifted with high achieving. She has had him for a subject skip this year and will most likely be his ful ltime teacher next year. On the positive side the others in the meeting seem to understand that she might have been missing the 2E piece of the puzzle.

Keep you fingers crossed please!

Did the regular teacher seem open to learning more about 2E? Hopefully you and the specials can broaden her view between now and the start of the school year.
Do you have any follow on meetings planned? If not, I'd follow up with at least a letter summarizing the planned IEP changes, workload reduction, and keyboarding.
May the forward momentum will continue!

Inky,
We are meeting again the first week of June and also the first week of the school year next Fall to work out details for the IEP and make sure everyone is on the same page. I've been assured that his teacher is one of the best in the school for learning new tricks so I'm cautiously optomistic. I really do hope that she is able and willing to learn about 2E. I am also following up with a letter summarizing my understanding of yesterday's meeting.
Taking deep breathes and praying!

THe meeting sounds promising! All fingers crossed!