Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Need advice communicating to kindergarten teacher

Hello,

I'm relatively new to the forum. I'm hoping some of you can help with the situation I'm having with my daughter's kindergarten teacher. My daughter has tested in the 99.6% on the WPPSI. She is a June b-day and I've noticed in the past the teacher has tended to sent the older kids to the enrichment class. Her report recommends she should participate in all gifted and enrichment programming has been turned in to the principal. C-Dog, as her dad calls her :), can read but is not real interested in doing that. She started reading words at 3, but when I would ask her to start reading books she refused and asked me to read to her. I thought that was fine and she does read, just probably at a first grade level. Her teacher informed me that C-Dog didn't know how to read simple words such as "My" and that the enrichment teacher really expects the "cream of the crop". She also states that C-Dog is not raising her hand and answering questions to the extent that teacher expects with a gifted child. C-Dog was very enthusiastic when school started, but would come home crying that the teacher wouldn't always call on her, even when no one else had her hand up. She told me that she doesn't raise her hand always because she doesn't always get called on. We've explained that she won't always get called on, others need a turn and she should always raise her hand, but not expect to be called on every time. I explained that C-dog is having some reservations because she realizes the others aren't doing what she is and she is feeling self conscience and clamming up. The Dr. that tested her and I agree that she needs to always go to enrichment because she needs to be with others like her in an environment where the other kids are capable of doing the same work she can do at home. I told her C-dog is doing some very advanced science experiments at home. At this point she said that some parents push their kids at home, so they shut down at school. This is not the case in our home, we follow our children's interests, not the other way around. I think just by advocating for my child she sees me as the pushy parent. I also think she totally disregards the IQ test administered by the very respected PhD. (by the way, this is the guy the school works with) specializing in gifted children. She feels that C-dog just isn't "as smart" as we think she is. Now, the enrichment program isn't that great so I'm not sure how upset I should be if C-dog doesn't go this year. The teacher is retiring and last year she told one of her student's next teacher that the child was in the bottom third. Guess what, this child is also highly gifted. Unfortunately, it seems if C-dog is being turned off now. She has asked me three times if I could just home school her. Our school district has the best gifted program in the state but it doesn't start till 4th grade. The PhD. kind of implied that you get blacklisted from the program if you do anything unconventional at all, ie: part home school, home school for a few years and come back, etc.
Well, there's more but, that's a good start for now. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Incog

Hi Sweetie-Incog!

C-dog sounds like she is suffering to me. I would get her out of there. Sure the gifted program is wonderful for the top 5% to 2% or whatever they choose as their population, but by 4th grade she may be ready for Middle School! There is just a very very large difference between each gifted child, and your daughter is about 1 in one hundred amoung gifted kids. So isn't it reasonable to suspect that the gifted program will consider itself preety good if it meets the needs of the 99, and calls your daughter "shy" and "unengaged?"

Is homeschooling an option, even part time or for a short time? Are private schools availible? Just a different teacher may make a world of difference. You can certianlly pull her his year and try again next year.

Best Wishes,
Trinity

Hi Incog,
I'm also wondering about the reading. What does your daughter like to listen to? M

y son was saying all the letters and their sonds at age 2, and didn't start reading even at the level of "magic tree house" books until 1st grade. I was paniced over it but didn't know what to do. Everyone else was like "oh, they learn to read when they learn to read - you can't push it"

I felt so misunderstood. I didn't care when he learned to read, but the gap felt so weird! Also the gap between what he conversations were like and the non-reading. Now I have heard many many stories of children with vision problems, both the regular kinds and the kind the Behavioral Optomitrists test for. For example, my DS11 has a 7th grade Geography test today. Contour Maps are one of the topics. Last night he went throught and put a check next to each topic that he knew well. He checked a dozen topics but left off "Longitude and Lattitude" and "Contour Maps."

For L&L it was just a matter of looking up which is which, and then making a memory device. But his feelings about Contour Maps were totally different.

Me: ok - Contour Maps, what don't you understand about them?
DS11:I just don't know about them.
Me: Tell me what you know.
DS11: They tell elevation. They have a lot of tiny lines on them that are hard to read. Each line is at the same alltitude. Every 5th line is darker so you can count more easily.
Me: Sounds like you know a lot about them. Do you know that when the lines are close together there is a sharp incline or decline, and when they are far apart the land is flat?
DS11: Oh I know that. That's easy.
Me: Does it hurt your eyes to follow the lines around the map, or try to count them.
DS11: ((big smile and relieved look)) It sure does! I guess I do know everything about contour maps, now that you mention them.

I think that contours maps are challenging for everyone to read, but I do think my son has some subtle visual tracking problems that make it a bit harder for him. I think he thought that he "wasn't good with contour maps" because of all the effort he has to put into using them. He has come so far over the years in being able to catch a ball and read textbooks, I haven't pushed to actually do the therapy, but if he were 3 or 4 again, and I knew what I know now I certainly would pursue it. It would have given him a completely different view of his athletic ability. It would have helped him feel less like "an alien." Perhaps his handwriting would be better, and I know that he would have been easier to teach. In 2nd grade he was in a gifted reading cluster without my knowledge. Problem was that he was also given worksheets that matched the reading level of the book (5th grade)! The other boys were mostly a year or more older through a late start to kindy, and they were able to look up words in a dictionary, and fill out those worksheet papers. My son knew he was running circles around the other boys in terms of understanding what he had read as evidenced by group discussion, but the other boys make it clear that he was "holding up the group" with his age-level ability to find words in a dictionary and handwrite full answers to the worksheet questions.

So, I would get her to a Behavioral Optometrist just to check out the vision aspect.

Love and More Love,
Trinity

Thanks! I will follow up on this. I've kind of wondered about the vision because, as I mentioned, she started to read at three, then she just decided she wasn't real interested in that. I guess the question is; could a physical problem dampening her enthusiasm? If anyone else has some input on this I sure would appreciate it. Home school is an option, I believe she will read when she's ready. I don't mean able (she is), I mean when she is interested. It's hard for me to stomach, though, she may be barred from any gifted programming the school has to offer because her teacher has such a limiting view of gifted traits. Any ideas would be gratefully accepted.

I,
Will your tester go to bat for DD to get a gradeskip into first grade?
What kind of books does she want you to read to her? Magic Tree house or Harry Potter, KWIM?
Trin

Another thought on the reading is she is just waiting until she had the skills to read what she WANTS to read. My son could sound out words (painfully) and had pre-literacy skills (letters, sounds) well before kindergarten. He wasn't a true reader before kindergarten. He was doing other stuff before kindy that now hind sight were signs of giftedness But because he was not a true reader we never really thought of him as gifted. He was just our kid - which we assumed was a normal kid. Normal preschoolers want you research chrysalis with them for hours on end, etc right?

Anyway, my son went from barely getting through level 1 books to Harry Potter reading skills in kindergarten. He's in first grade now and reads somewhere close to the 6th grade level. He's always carrying a book around. And for him the target reading level was I think at least 3rd grade before he started happily reading on his own. He also tested above the 99th percentile in the tests our school district uses. So you may see a really big jump all at once. My son is an all or nothing kind of kid and has confidence issues - like he wants to be able to do something perfectly before he's willing to demonstrate what he's capable of. Even now, he's not super confident about reading out loud. But will happily devour chapter books on his own and then summarize the plot.

Anyway - we have the same issue with our school district. They give these tests and then teachers have their own agenda. I have heard teachers at our school openly criticizing them at meetings and saying they mean nothing, etc. I'm trying to prepare something to say to our conferences in a couple weeks. I'd love to homeschool too, but my husband is not there yet. Anyway - I'm still new at this too and have no particular advice, but good luck! Misery loves company right?

Welcome Kimck!
I'm so glad you are here. I think your insight into your son's path is very deep and sounds likely. My son also "hated baby books" and didn't want anything to do with "baby reading" until he went through it with his school-mates. I jokining would say to the children's librarian "Do you have any early readers on Poision or Weapons?" I also was able to be in Gifted Denial due to his "age-level"reading - never mind that he wanted to listen to "Phantom Tollbooth" or "Harry Potter" as a preschooler! Being intensly interested in the world looked "normal" to me - LOL!

I too have been in meeting were the teachers and school specialists shake their heads about how unreliable those silly IQ scores are. I'm looking forward to sharing an understanding of "levels of giftedness" so that they can finally understand their observations AND the IQ scores together.

Glad you found us,
Trinity

Hello all,

Thanks for all the kind words and good advice. Yes, I think C-dog would do better if she is accelerated. UNFORTUNATELY.....the principal has a PG son and was a gifted teacher/coordinator in another school district. He is patently against acceleration and WON'T do it! That was the recommendation for both the girls by our tester and he would go to bat if he didn't already know it would be a waste of his time.
Main dilemma: Our school district has an inhouse gifted program and a magnet for the top 2%. Realistically the top 1% get into the magnet and our district attracts the gifted crowd, so it's as good as it gets for public. BUT, it doesn't really start till 4th grade, if your child can wait that long.
The "enrichment" that precedes it is highly (or maybe even profoundly) fishy . If we pull out to homeschool, she will never get into the magnet even if we come back. It seems to be the accepted belief that no other private school is good enough (certainly no home school environment) so when the kids come back into the system, boy, they couldn't have possibly kept up with the others (sarcasm) -hey I'm getting the hang of this thing!- So our decision basically boils down to suffer now or later for C-dog. The tester has started to have me communicate to the teacher to make some accomodations and has communicated that it is a CONFIDENCE issue. The teacher implied I am "working her too hard at home" and maybe she is shutting down when she gets to school. I'm sure she has seen her share of this; not an issue at my house. The girls lead me in terms of their interests and sometimes beg to do WORKBOOKS (gag) because they are voracious little sponges. Big discrepency between what she does at home and what she is doing at class. So, we will test the waters with how far they are willing to go to accomodate in class. And Trinity, I just made an appointment with an eye doctor, we'll see what happens. That was one of the things in the back of my mind but your thoughts triggered my action.

Thanks!!!

Incog

Incog - I'm glad you are getting the eye doctor thing going. Please keep in mind that many many "regular" eye doctors don't believe in the "Behavior Optometry" that our kids seem to get into trouble with.

also - do the math - A program for the top 2% includes how many "normally gifted" kids for every kid who is at the top 0.4%?
Go see if you can visit that 4th grade magnet school. See if you are impressed or appalled. Please. Is C-dog the older or the younger? Did your tester say that there were plenty of other kids in the magnet with scores like your DDs?

I do agree to try the tester's advice and get some differentiation in class. I am so sorry the teacher is accusing you of pushing them. Is it worth bringing this to the principle's attention? Perhaps a video tape would clear your reputation. Would she be willing to comeover for dinner? I never had the nerve to do it, but I've heard that the best way to advocate is to drop you kid off with the key decision maker for a few hours. Perhaps the Principle's kids are babysitting age and you can slither into a personal relationship that way?

Just random thoughts!
Have a great weekend,
Trinity

Okay, Trinity. You aren't going to love this. Our tester says that he has seen kids in the magnet with IQ of 125. He has seen child with IQ of 160 get turned away. No valid reasons. As far as visiting the magnet....The gifted coordinator for the district is somewhat weak. They don't want to give you any info until your child takes the CogAt in third grade. Yes, that's right, you heard me. Their group IQ screener trumps my WISC and WPPSI. C-dog is the youngest. The oldest is 99.9 on the newer WISC. She is doing well because her personality is more tolerant. They think she is a superstar and she does nothing in school. C-dog's teacher thinks eldest is "a tough act to follow", therefore maybe C-dog shouldn't be in enrichment because it's too much pressure for her. The thing is there are lots of kids in the gifted category here, and all the parents think their kid is the smartest. There is not enough resources to go around. I'm a squeaky wheel kind of a person, so I'm definately working for it. I will try to look into the magnet program, cause if I go through all this for a stinky program, Ima gonna be mad..............there are politics and posturing going on here. I volunteer at the school......quite a bit....I don't have a pushy rep with most of the personnel. Not sure what's up with K teacher, except she's retiring this year and probably doesn't want to deal with me. Some how I kind of can't blame her. The principal is not a bad guy. He is very knowlegeable, just has a different opinion on how the gifted kids fare in school. There will be no slithering with him, but thanks for the suggestion. I like all these free flowing ideas, though. Giving me a lot of pause. I certainly wouldn't want to be on the other side of a negotiation table from any of you!

Peace,
Incog

I agree with Trinity that that gifted magnet might not be worth waiting for (especially if the years you invest waiting are causing your child to shut down). My experience on this board has suggested to me that the schools that believe they have great gifted programs can be the least flexible. They seem to think that if the programs they have in place don't meet a child's needs, then the problem is with the child. By the usual standards, our school district is mediocre at best and no one moves here for the schools, but they have adapted to meet our son's needs without a single complaint and usually without me needing to advocate much. Just because a school or program is supposed to be good doesn't mean that it will be good for your kid.

Is volunteering in the school a possibility for you? One of the things that has helped me, I think, is that I was a regular volunteer in the school. I was happy to do whatever they asked me to do: preparing craft materials, grading spelling tests, escorting sick kids to the nurses office, filing books in the library, weeding the front garden plot. There was nothing beneath me. I made friends with the teachers and staff. So when I had to put on my one-of-those-moms hat, they already knew that I cared about them and all the kids at the school. I think that they were more open and less likely to be defensive because of this. Being in the classroom gave me a good chance to see how DS was behaving and how the teacher reacted to him. I also got a better sense of all the issues that the teacher had to deal with. And DS loved having me there. Ultimately, I felt much better able to advocate for DS because I had first hand experience in the class he was in. I can see lots of reasons why this wouldn't work out in all circumstances, but, still, it was so good for us, I wanted to mention it.

Hi Incog,
I see our posts crossed. Glad to hear you are volunteering and that you are getting along with the other staff. Would it be possible to trial move your daughter to another classroom/ teacher, "just to see if there is a better match of style?" Sometimes its not about the quality of the teacher, but about the "fit."

Hi all, just a quick update.

I met with C-dog's teacher this morning. She had the reading specialist administer a reading test and now believes C-dog can really read. I was expecting the worst going into the meeting, but it went better than expected. I had her report from testing and some work from a summer gifted program in which she was put in a class with children 1-3 years older. The teacher really seemed to turn around when she saw what the summer teacher wrote about C-dog's demonstrated abilities. She had been afraid that my daughter would feel frustrated if she went into enrichment with other children and couldn't do what they were doing. I think she realizes that C-dog isn't showing her anything extraordinary because she really hasn't been expected to do so. On the downside, she used the "cream of the crop" statement again. Even though I wanted to vomit, I calmly brought her back to C-dog's test score and reminded her that she is in the 99.6th percentile. That means she scored in the top 1/2 of 1% of her peers and regardless of her opinion, I consider her to be the "cream of the crop" in terms of intellectual and cognitive abilities. She didn't love it that I said that, but I bet she won't use that awful descriptor when referring to what my child is not, again. She will send C-dog to the gifted programs now, so I guess my first real effort at advocating worked out well. Best case scenario, though, I'm not sure the school will be able to accomodate either of my girls in reference to what they are really able to do. I am considering going back to work in order to send them to one of the gifted private schools in the area. It has really helped me to read all the posts in reference to my original question. It also helped me just to read what else is going on with others and what they are doing, so thanks everybody.

Peace,
Incog

Incog,
I'm really glad that you made some headway. I hope you giggle when you hear my favorite new catch-phrase - when it comes to working with schools "It's a process!"

I'm hoping that both your daughter grow happy and get regualar chances with challenge as you get closer and closer to your goal.

LOL - same advice regarding the private school - observe the classroom. Personally I did get to the place where I came to believe that the best way to help my son was to work more and earn enough dough for a more flexible school placement. I had heard a joke that no one puts on their gravestone "I should have spent more time at the office." - and was starting to think that I would be the exception to that rule! Still, being there emotionally for children is a huge committment of time and energy, so I applaud any parent who can swing working less outside the home for as long as they can manage it. Another good example of us choosing the "least bad option."

Smiles,
Trinity

Wow, your posts sound very similar to mine! We just did the WWPSI and the WIAT with our 5yo kindergartner (May birthday) with results similar to your dd's and are in the process of talking to the school. We got the standard, "Well, there are several other children in kindergarten who are reading." Not like this they aren't! We have a meeting set up for next week with the principal, his k teacher and the GT teacher.

Anyway, I'm so glad you got the accomodations you were looking for, and that you got through to the teacher! I'm sure that our K teacher doesn't understand the implication of our Benjy's test scores, and it sounds like yours didn't either; it sounds like you were able to sway her.

And don't you hate it when you get hothousing comments? I know there are many parents who do push the academics to produce an early reader, but a hothoused kid just doesn't score above the 99th percentile on IQ tests.

Congrats on your bright kid and your successful advocacy efforts!