Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Another gifted/ADHD question

My ds is in 3rd grade. He'll be 9 in June, and the K cutoff here is Sept 30, so he's in the younger half of kids in his class. He attends a gifted magnet school, so all the kids in his class are gifted too. His teachers say:
1 - he calls out answers without waiting to be called on (and sometimes without raising his hand),
2 - his desk is too messy,
3 - he forgets things (to bring home/turn in his homework, to bring home his jacket)
4 - he is sometimes rude to other students (saying, "Hey, that's my chair!" rather than "Excuse me, you're sitting in my seat." and "We just went over that twice!" when another student asks for clarification,
5 - his handwriting is terrible (you may recall he goes to an OT for this, and
6 - during class, he gets up to look at the gerbils, sometimes while the teacher is teaching.

My questions:
1 - In your opinion, is he AD/HD?
2 - Are we simply bad parents?
3 - Is he just immature?
4 - Could there be another issue? And if so, what?

I'd like any and all opinions.
Thanks.

First question I'd ask myself: does he exhibit these same behaviors at home? (if not, then I'd say no)

Next: does he fit the DSM criteria? http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/symptom.htm

The messy desk and bad handwriting just say "possible VSL" to me. See this article - maybe it'll help flesh things out - there's a chart http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/george.pdf

that's my two cents


p.s. no you're not bad parents!!!

is he bored? that could account for almost all of the above. As far as his rude words - you have to keep an eye on this question: do other kids act just as rude but get away with it?

Sounds *exactly* like my ds, and I've wondered about possible ADD as well. Ds6 did improve immensely with appropriate academic placement but still struggles somewhat with all those issues. So far, we're working individually on the symptoms and not seeking a diagnosis.

I'm hoping we're dealing with an immaturity thing here ... not sure about age 9, though.

I'm sure he's bored sometimes (and gets up to visit the gerbils), but if I were in a classroom and bored, I wouldn't get up and wander around. That item disturbs me the most, but his teachers seem most bothered by the calling out.

As far as exhibiting the same behavior at home, I don't make him raise his hand or sit in his seat for extended periods of time, so I don't think I could see the same thing. I see rudeness sometimes, poor handwriting most of the time, and his room is sloppy, but that just sounds like regular kid to me.

On the DSM criteria, I'd say he's high (but not high enough) for inattention and impulsivity. I have a hard time with those types of lists because "often" is subjective.

I really appreciate your input.

That's a trip. People are saying DS6 has AD/HD but his room is immaculate and organized and orderly. His handwriting is great and he spontaneously writes little booklets on trains or how to grow a plant. He's also very visual. I think his vision is his strongest sense. He likes puzzles, mazes, etc. I am becoming more confused every day.

You know, alot of this sounds like my DS (9 in April) and the psychologist who tested him mentioned ADHD. She said she couldn't be certain just from the testing, but there were 'behaviors' that were flags for her of ADHD and impulsivity.

She mentioned three things - ADHD, anxiety, and asynchronous development. She also mentioned that for it to be ADHD, the behaviors would have been present prior to age 7. To us, he's always been energetic and bounces from one thing to another when he's had enough of whatever it was. He's physically active and it's never really been a problem for us, other than.....we're tired at the end of the day:) His handwriting is atrocious, but so is DHs.

I guess I look at it like this - for everything she mentioned that could be attributed to ADHD, I can look at DH or myself and see some of the same things. I did some reading after our meeting and found that the same behaviors could also be related to his giftedness.

Good luck finding your answers.

Is there a social skills issue? I can definately think of other things and could ask many questions but would start with that.

Hello Keet,
Does he also have meltdowns? Ours had many. You've described my son to a T, when he was that age. He does have ADHD. Ritalin helped him immensely and his grades went from c's and d's to as and b's.
He began focusing on work. Ritalin made him less impulsive, a lot less, to the point of him finally being socially considerate.

My youngest, now 20, also has it. 2-3 dif drugs caused bad side effects such as throat clearings and manic behavior. So, I'd recommend trying the pharms available on a trial basis. I say that Ritalin saved my son's life and aside from the essential grace of God and the better placement, it's really true. He reached his maximum potential on Ritalin and went from failure to success.

He's 27 now and for many yrs. has not needed a pharm. When they growup, maturity helps them control themselves better. He's now a successful Ph.d student. Straight A's for yrs. now.
Best of everything,
San

There may be a social skills issue, but what can we do about that? The OT he goes to has a social skills class for autistic kids, but I don't really think he'd be a good fit, judging from the kids that I see going into the class (it starts about the same time ds goes to OT).

He does not have meltdowns often and then only at home.

His grades are good. On his last report card he had A's in everything except Writing, and that was a B.

We'd be reluctant to try meds anyway b/c he takes a lot of meds for another medical condition.

My question would be what has the teacher done to teach him adaptive behavior? Too many times teachers complain yet they've tried nothing outside of their standard canned response to help the child. Many general ed teachers think they don't have to make any adjustments - that the child should be classified and put in special ed. At least that's been my experience.
For example, my DS7 forgets to turn in his folder & other items. His 1st grade teacher will go into his backpack and selectively remove things she wants. If she can do this than why can't she also remove his homework? More importantly - how does this teach him to remember to empty his back pack and hand in his folder? It doesn't. She doesn't have to teach him much as he's way beyond grade level, the least she could do is teach him this skill. She could do a number of things to teach him this skill that would not take much effort or time. She chooses not to. She thinks he has ADHD (which he does not as per a neuropsychologist & neurologist/psychiatrist evaluation) and just wants to build her case against him.
Your son may be immature - may have asynchronous development. Mine does. :-)
Maybe a FBA is needed (functional behavior assessment). If you go this route you should insist on someone certified by the BACB - preferably a behavior analyst. This is a less restrictive & instrusive approach and should (in my opinion) be tried before medication - especially since so many gifted kids tend to be misdiagnosed. The behavior analyst could help the teacher with strategies to manage behavior.
For example, I would tell the teacher to cover the gerbil cage during instruction. I would also recommend some sort of extrinsic reinforcement plan for hand-raising, polite social behavior & remaining seated. Remembering essential things like turning in homework could also be reinforced.
As far as organizational skills, the behavior analyst can also address this but an OT can as well. You may want to ask his OT for some suggestions. I'm assuming he has an IEP b/c he gets OT for handwriting - you could ask that they add services to assist with organizational skills. It's my experience that this can be taught.
Good luck!

My favorite book for teaching parents to teach children social skills is 'A good friend is hard to find.'

You can also look around for other social skills groups that are aimed at a more typical population.

You can try to set up some playdates with other gifted kids - perhaps meeting them through a chess club, or book club at the local library.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Keet,
Please be assured, you are not a bad parent. Any observer who intimates this needs to be educated on gifted kids as well as adhd. Honestly, those years were so difficult that I wondered how I failed as a parent. I also wanted to say, I'm so glad to hear he's in a gifted school. Public school, no service, was hell for ours. That your son can pull those grades while forgetting homework is interesting. The homework problem for our son contributed to low grades. His handwriting is poor to this day and writes only in print. He, too, missed social cues. Before Ritalin, this caused him a lot of pain. At 27, he's very socially conscious. Once we wait out the storm of these early years, the rewards are great. I think you've gotten really good advice on this thread. Good resources and mechanisms offered. All the best, San

My ds6 is diagnosed ADHD, but not so severe as to require meds. Some of his behavior is explained by boredom. My ds7 is diagnosed mild PDD. Both have decent grades.

I think part of the problem when my kids go to school is that when they are at home, we discuss mutually acceptable solutions for everyone in the family. At school, they are expected to sit down, be quiet, and do exactly what the teacher says, without any input. The difference between the two kinds of discipline can be jarring at times and the children do respond negatively to it.

What about individual instruction of social skill? My DD9 is seeing the speech therapist and working with a picture book of social skills. I need to get the name because it is wonderful. She photocopies the pages that they are working with for us to use at home. It discusses the social skill, gives specific instructions and then has pictures of right and wrong ways and when the new skill might be used. This could be done at home as well

My daughter also has gifted aspergers but all the social skills groups in our area are geared toward children with moderate to severe autism. This was our version of an alternative.

To those who suggested asynchronicity - Absolutely!

Grinity, Can you give me more details (author, maybe, or what it looks like on A Good Friend is Hard to Find? There are a number of books with similar titles on amazon.

As to the mention of his IEP, he doesn't have one. Where we live gifted kids don't get IEP's unless they have other issues too. His handwriting doesn't qualify him for an IEP because he didn't test as having a learning disability.

His teacher made up a behavior chart for him. He gets checks for staying in hi seat, etc. She just started it, so I hope it works.

Teachers are not the ones to diagnose ADD/ADHD. Pediatricians need to work with parents with perhaps input from teachers.

Don't be offended by the next question. Does your son drive you crazy? If the answer is no, then I would say no. If the answer is yes, or sometimes, then you might visit a pediatrician and/or psychologist/diagnostician with ADD/ADHD experience.

My son is gifted and has ADHD. It's sort of apparent. He has learned some coping methods on his own for controlling it. He'll clinch his fists and push himself to the point of shaking.... he says it makes him feel better.

In school he is able to complete his work and the teacher is aware that he has it. He's in 3rd too. His teacher is very tolerant of "wigglers", there are quiet a few kids in his class that have it.

As for the age thing, he's 7 and is sort of out of place. Most of the kids in his class are 8 or 9. There are a couple who are 10 and I think one boy is 11. But he goes to a typical public urban school.

You could try fish oil and see what happens. It's pretty inert stuff and it truly is a magic pill for attention issues, hyperactivity, the works. You might have to play with the dosage, though.

nicely put, eema.

I take flaxseed oil, and it helps TREMENDOUSLY... I can't bring myself to take fish oil, even the kind they say isn't "fishy". It's probably why I have issues with ADD... not enough fish in my diet.

My dad hates fish, so he freezes the fish oil capsules. He said it ensures no fish taste (or even fish belches, which I have experienced before when taking fish oil capsules, and it's not nice!).

You might give the freezing a try. The fish oil really is supposed to be better than the flax from what I've read.

I think there's a possibility of ADHD, but I really fear a mis-diagnosis. In reading about the criteria, he seems to be more impulsive, a little inattentive, and not very hyperactive.

The behavior chart his teacher put into place really seems to be helping. It's only been a week or so, but she says she's seeing an improvement.

You are not bad parents. You sound like you have a gifted possibly ADHD kid.

For social skills - here are some things that were reecommended to us:
Drama class- if they have memories good enough to memorize their lines, drama might be a great way to get them to acknolwedge their turn, someone else turn and social queues. However, it remains to be seen if they can remain on stage long enough to partake.

Dance/Exercises to help strengthen sides of his brain that may be weaker. Does he have any other issues that could be neurological?

Try giving him coffee and or sugar free Mountain Dew/Dr. Pepper -does it calm him down? Good chance he has ADHD if stimulants calm him down - and you can figure that out before you go to a doctor of a real diagnosis and real drugs.

Also - see my other post under "learning disorders" on the Future of ADHD treatment for non-drug altenratives.

Nearly all the adults I've spoken to that had ADHD when younger have grown out of it. I still think Maturity is a HUGE part of the issue.

Also - I have started to explain to DS6 that "being truly brainy/clever/intelligent" also means knowing HOW to behave the right way for certain people. So now he's thinking a little bit more "craftily" regarding his beheavior in school. He takes pride in being "brainy" - so see what your child takes pride in and try and twist it to help him see his behavior in a new way.

OH yes- and of course the teacher and classroom amnagement are a HUGE part of it - but as you siad he is in with other gifted kids - I would HOPE his teacher knows what to look for when it comes to comparisons between gifted and ADHD kids and symptoms. You can see them listed at About.com