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    #39207 - 02/24/09 08:01 PM Re: Achievement vs Intelligence [Re: Austin]
    Lori H. Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/26/07
    Posts: 982
    Originally Posted By: Austin


    Hehe.

    Watch out for second hand information, too!!!


    All he had to say about this was "I agree, you should."

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    #39248 - 02/25/09 08:19 AM Re: Achievement vs Intelligence [Re: Lori H.]
    cym Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/01/06
    Posts: 865
    Loc: southwest
    I thought Gladwell was trying to identify several "outliers":

    Clearly the 10,000 hrs idea -- you don't have to be the smartest but the hardest-working or most driven or most interested

    Cultural differences -- these values are very strong and endure generations. I don't think it's simply "Asians work harder". Children who see their parents work hard whether it's in rice paddies or the garment industry and who involve their kids in it (rather than working hard and sheltering the next generation) and make it part of their value system/upbringing.

    Opportunities - could be birth dates or pure luck (like availability of computer lab when Bill Gates was at the right school/right time).

    Advantages - year round learning, summer programs, encouragement.

    Not part of that book, but also of interest to me is how the internet/computer culture are killing some key skills: dialogue/conversation (though Lori, you are providing that for your son by debating with him which is important!), written communication (kids rely on texting & emailing these days); real-life contact with nature & the outdoors (there is a combination of safety/media spotlights of scary kid kidnapping stuff, technology-age focus, and urban availability of open space).

    I also think there will also be (or already is) a shortage of people who can "do" with their hands (plumbing, electrical, carpentry--not as a profession specifically, but as an ability to help yourself when the need arises).

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    #39250 - 02/25/09 08:25 AM Re: Achievement vs Intelligence [Re: cym]
    cym Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/01/06
    Posts: 865
    Loc: southwest
    One additional comment...Lori, I know how you feel when you're interacting with a kid who is smarter in some ways than we are, but we have to remember they are still kids in lot of ways. They still look for guidance and structure from us. Sometimes when I say "no" I can tell they're relieved. It's hard for me to limit the computer time too. I'm trying things like, "You need to take a break and read for 30 minutes and then you can play more".

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    #39252 - 02/25/09 08:31 AM Re: Achievement vs Intelligence [Re: Lori H.]
    Austin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/08
    Posts: 1840
    Loc: North Texas
    Has he read a biography of Teddy Roosevelt?

    TR had a lot of health issues until he got into his teens ( and as a result spent a lot of time in intellectual pursuits ) and had to deal with a major tragedy when he was young. He was easily the most intelligent man to be President.

    Excellent, excellent book.

    http://www.amazon.com/Theodore-Roosevelt-Modern-Library-Paperbacks/dp/0375756787





    Edited by Austin (02/25/09 08:33 AM)

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    #39442 - 02/26/09 12:38 PM Re: Achievement vs Intelligence [Re: Austin]
    Lori H. Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/26/07
    Posts: 982
    Originally Posted By: Austin
    Has he read a biography of Teddy Roosevelt?



    I don't think he has read much about his early years, but he has read things like National Geographic's Eyewitness to the 20th Century and here is some of what that book said about him: "Most significantly, it is hard to deny that Theodore Roosevelt was a confirmed racist who used his belief in the inferiority of nonwhites to support American imperial intervention abroad."

    That one sentence led to lots of discussion about racism and imperialism. I never read things like that when I was his age and I don't think I would have wanted to talk about it if I had.

    He read a biography on Lincoln a while back and he says he is interested in what presidents did while they did while they were in office and why they made the decisions they made.




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    #39444 - 02/26/09 12:45 PM Re: Achievement vs Intelligence [Re: cym]
    Lori H. Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/26/07
    Posts: 982
    Originally Posted By: cym
    One additional comment...Lori, I know how you feel when you're interacting with a kid who is smarter in some ways than we are, but we have to remember they are still kids in lot of ways. They still look for guidance and structure from us. Sometimes when I say "no" I can tell they're relieved. It's hard for me to limit the computer time too. I'm trying things like, "You need to take a break and read for 30 minutes and then you can play more".


    He works for a while, then plays a while. He seems to need a lot of breaks. My husband and I both like to get our work done first and then have the rest of the day to relax. I have tried to talk him into doing it this way, but I guess as long as he gets his work done, that is all that matters.

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    #40697 - 03/10/09 04:41 AM Re: Achievement vs Intelligence [Re: Lori H.]
    Ellipses Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/22/09
    Posts: 402
    Loc: Colorado
    I finally finished "Outliers" and it does speak of the longer hours and days of school. This naturally leads to being able to concentrate for longer periods of time and learning quite a bit more earlier on in their education.

    Also, the longer days allow students to work problems that take them longer. We are more interested in finishing a problem fast here. That is why word problems are being introduced more often and much earlier here. I often hear "I don't get it" if the student can't get it immediately. I work very hard with my students to "sit with it" and to take their time figuring it out.

    In my basic sociology course many years ago in college, my professor said that almost anything can be reduced to immediate versus delayed gratification. I often see how right he was about this. I believe this is one reason that early math is way more than addition. The belief that if one can add, he or she is successful in math for that grade level sets a student up for failure later when applied problems arise.

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    #40771 - 03/10/09 11:06 AM Re: Achievement vs Intelligence [Re: Lori H.]
    Austin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/08
    Posts: 1840
    Loc: North Texas
    Originally Posted By: Lori H.
    Originally Posted By: Austin
    Has he read a biography of Teddy Roosevelt?



    I don't think he has read much about his early years, but he has read things like National Geographic's Eyewitness to the 20th Century and here is some of what that book said about him: "Most significantly, it is hard to deny that Theodore Roosevelt was a confirmed racist who used his belief in the inferiority of nonwhites to support American imperial intervention abroad."

    That one sentence led to lots of discussion about racism and imperialism. I never read things like that when I was his age and I don't think I would have wanted to talk about it if I had.

    He read a biography on Lincoln a while back and he says he is interested in what presidents did while they did while they were in office and why they made the decisions they made.


    I'd say the "Most significant" thing about TR is that he empathized with people due to his own situation and experiences and fought against entrenched interests and corrupt politicians to implement much of the Progressive agenda of the 20th century. He sought out the counsel of many people, many of whom were formidable women, including his daughter Alice.

    He treated all men equally despite any personal beliefs he had. His fights as a young man, representative, appointee, and elected national official are interesting to read as his passion shines through. He was personally threatened several times and his enemies sought to smear him at every turn. And in the midst of his very hectic life, he wrote many books on history that have stood the test of time. His children became formidable in their own right, which is usually not the case of presidential progeny. Alice was the counselor to many leaders and a force to continue Progressivism and Ted won the Medal of Honor saving the Normandy invasion.

    Its pretty telling that the National Geographic has to stoop to gotcha theater to satiate an academic fetish when the real story of TR is very compelling.

    Here is a taste of what TR faced:

    "By the next summer, however, grieving over the loss of his wife and mother, both of whom had died on the very same day the previous February, he returned to North Dakota seeking to regain his sense of purpose."

    And then disaster upon disaster followed along with a cast of characters that challenged him at every turn:

    "A brutal cycle of heavy snowfall, partial thawing, and subzero freezing ensued, crusting the ground with impenetrable ice. Thousands of animals froze, starved, or fell prey to predators. Newspapers estimated the total loss of stock as high as 75 percent. When Roosevelt returned to Medora in the spring of 1887, he found that more than half his herd had perished."

    You have man barely in his 20s, son of a Dutch New York Business Elite and Ivy League grad trying to do this and get over his loss as well. And before he was in his late teens, he could barely lift ten pounds and spent days or weeks in bed - and he was profoundly gifted:


    "Sickly and asthmatic as a youngster, Roosevelt had to sleep propped up in bed or slouching in a chair during much of his early childhood, and had frequent ailments. Despite his illnesses, he was a hyperactive and often mischievous boy. His lifelong interest in zoology was formed at age seven upon seeing a dead seal at a local market. After obtaining the seal's head, the young Roosevelt and two of his cousins formed what they called the "Roosevelt Museum of Natural History". Learning the rudiments of taxidermy, he filled his makeshift museum with many animals that he killed or caught, studied, and prepared for display. At age nine, he codified his observation of insects with a paper titled "The Natural History of Insects".[11]"

    It changed him profoundly:

    Roosevelt felt that his associations with the West immeasurably enriched his life. He once wrote, "I have always said I never would have been President if it had not been for my experience in North Dakota."


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    #41033 - 03/11/09 07:43 PM Re: Achievement vs Intelligence [Re: Austin]
    RobotMom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/25/09
    Posts: 604
    Loc: in a happier place
    DH and I taught internationally for 11 years, in the Philippines, Turkey, Japan and Latvia, so we've seen an awful lot of different cultures and the ways they treat education. I have to interject a few thoughts here about the work ethic or lack thereof in regards to US kids and our education system. (This may be the wrong thread for it, but many of you seemed to bring it up, so bear with me.)
    One of the biggest differences between the way children are educated here and in other countries is that we allow children to start thinking for themselves much much earlier than most of the other countries we worked in. Most of the national curricula that we saw was extremely heavy on rote memorization and empty of critical thinking skills.
    There is also usually a much smaller number of spots in universities in other countries than what we have available here in the US. In most places it is still an honor to be able to go to university, where as here there is literally a place for everyone (even those who don't want to go). This over abundance of opportunity leads to complacency for our students as well as the attitude of "Oh, I can get into somewhere, I'm not worried."
    Another major difference is that teachers in other countries have been protected by laws so that they have control over what happens in their classrooms - meaning that parents can't go to the administration, complain about a grade and have it changed for what ever reason they see fit. There is a respect for teachers because they really do hold the key to a student's future. (There are no helicopter parents allowed.)

    (Yes, I know some of you are wondering about the control that teachers have, but think back to years ago in this country. A teacher had the right and the power in the classroom. Yes, some abused it, but these were and are the exception, not the rule.)

    Ok, enough rambling, this is just one of my pet peeves, sorry.

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    #41036 - 03/11/09 08:06 PM Re: Achievement vs Intelligence [Re: RobotMom]
    giftedticcyhyper Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/07/09
    Posts: 128
    This is a topic that I've been thinking about a lot lately and you sound informed. What do you make of the teachers in other countries? Do they tend to be bright and educated? Here, in my personal experience (my own primary/secondary education and my kid's thus far), teachers often fall into their line of work. Do people aspire to positions in education in the four other countries that you're experienced with? Are they appropriately compensated?

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