Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 167 guests, and 10 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    parentologyco, Smartlady60, petercgeelan, eterpstra, Valib90
    11,410 Registered Users
    March
    S M T W T F S
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Hi all!

    My DS6 is taking the SB-V with a well-respected psychologist specializing in gifted assessment on Tuesday. DS's school-administered WJ-III scores from last spring indicate that he's a candidate for the YSP, so we've decided to get the ability testing done to see if he can get in.

    I picked up one really good bit of testing advice here on the forum--though I can't give credit, since I can't recall which of you great and generous minds wrote it, I'm afraid; please forgive me. But it went something like this: tell the child that some questions will be too easy, but he should answer them anyway; some questions will be too hard, but he should try to answer them ALL--even if he's not sure of the answer!--as best he can. Brilliant!

    I was wondering if there were any other words of wisdom that any of you could offer me/DS6. What do you wish someone had told you before your child was given an important test?

    Some of this is about me; I'm dwelling on this. I knew DS was gifted, but frankly, his scores on the WJ-III were 1-2 standard deviations higher than I thought they'd be, so I'm a little freaked out/worried/excited about having him tested. (He's our first child, and apparently I assumed he was closer to an average kid than he is, I think because he's the only kid I really saw...)

    Anyway, I'm not a "stage mom," and I'm not looking for ways to artificially drive up his score or that sort of thing. I just want to be sure we're getting as true a read of his ability as possible, his best possible honest results. The thing is, so many of our decisions about his future education--and since we're home schooling this year, so much of my future day-to-day life, too!--hinge on his scores, that I feel like this test is really pivotal for our whole family. Of course, I know that the results are just a number. But since the OTHER numbers were so much higher than I was expecting, I guess I feel the need to get some sort of secondary confirmation of his abilities before I'm quite ready to believe the WJ-III was right and he's THAT gifted. I'm the sort who gets as much evidence as is reasonable before making a decision, analyzes it quickly, and then makes a decision fast. This seems like pretty important evidence!

    I think I'm babbling, but what I'm trying to say is that this isn't a case of my needing to hear "It's just a number; you're the expert on your kid." The results of the WJ-III would seem to indicate that I'm not, at least not like I thought I was. I may have sold DS short. So the results of this test may well be pretty important to my thinking about what we do with DS from here on out. Can he go back to public school with grade skipping and all the hassles and issues that entails, or will they just flat be unable to accomodate him? Will a private gifted academy be a good fit, or is that even going to be enough for him? Will we have to keep home schooling, or will I be unable to give him the opportunities he needs? Just how gifted is this kid, really? These are the questions I'm hoping the test will help us to answer.

    Aside from not letting DS see my anxieties about this, what else should I/we be doing? Anything else I should say to him to prep him for the test? Advice, please!!! I need all the help you can share! crazy

    Thanks in advance!


    Kriston
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Hi Kriston,
    I'm so excited for you! I think it's great that you have gotten to this part of the journey.

    It's quite normal to be nervous. Unfortunatly, I believe that it's best to shield your child from these feelings, which is almost impossible, but you are well on your way be talking to us. I would also reccomend that you journal on your own experience of being "identified." If your child is as emotionally perceptive as mine is, you will need to give him a brief verbal statement that is true, but as undramatic as possible. Practice what seems to fit you, or if I'm close, steal this:

    Mom: Remember that old test you took last time?
    ds: yes
    Mom: Did you like doing it?
    ds: oh, yes!
    Mom: You know that DH and I are responsible for teaching you or finding places where you can learn, what's your job?
    ds: ((results will vary))
    Mom: I take my responsibility very serious don't it?
    ds: ((child will usually agree and laugh))
    Mom: It's always good to have help for important jobs, right?
    ds: (( results will vary, but I imagine a big smile of agreement here))
    Mom: And that's why I'm so excited about the new test at Dr. X's. After the test she'll be ready to help me do my responsibility to you! Yippee!

    Then the trick is not to bring it up again with DS - HA! This isn't easy, but it think it's worth trying.

    Other tips:
    pack healthy food,
    make a packing list with DS as a homeschool task,
    bring favorite cuddly,
    Plan travel route with DS as a homeschool task.
    Keep bedtimes consistient.
    Get outside each day for the next few days.
    Arrive early, even a day early to acclimate.
    Plan a fun activity, or swim at the hotel before the test.

    Best wishes,
    Trinity

    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207

    I do agree with this, very strongly:
    Originally Posted by Kriston
    Of course, I know that the results are just a number. But since the OTHER numbers were so much higher than I was expecting, I guess I feel the need to get some sort of secondary confirmation of his abilities before I'm quite ready to believe the WJ-III was right and he's THAT gifted. I'm the sort who gets as much evidence as is reasonable before making a decision, analyzes it quickly, and then makes a decision fast. This seems like pretty important evidence!..."It's just a number; you're the expert on your kid." The results of the WJ-III would seem to indicate that I'm not, at least not like I thought I was. I may have sold DS short.


    However I don't agree with this:
    Originally Posted by Kriston
    The thing is, so many of our decisions about his future education--and since we're home schooling this year, so much of my future day-to-day life, too!--hinge on his scores, that I feel like this test is really pivotal for our whole family.


    ... So the results of this test may well be pretty important to my thinking about what we do with DS from here on out. Can he go back to public school with grade skipping and all the hassles and issues that entails, or will they just flat be unable to accomodate him? Will a private gifted academy be a good fit, or is that even going to be enough for him? Will we have to keep home schooling, or will I be unable to give him the opportunities he needs? Just how gifted is this kid, really? These are the questions I'm hoping the test will help us to answer.

    You are a bit off here dear, and it's stressing you out. The test is to help you understand your child better.
    New understanding -> new choices -> new observations -> new choices.
    With a level III and up child, there are no turnkey solutions. The tests help you know the child better, but only life experience will show you what works with your individual child. Sorry if this seems to obvious to bring us, but I belief that taking a look at your expectations of the test are too high. Not that I don't wish we all could give our child a test, then go though a door that would lead to all the resource we needed to do your big job. If you see that door, let me know!

    Testing establishes a floor that your child isn't lower than. Testing teaches you more about the child. You will develop a new hypothesis. You will want to test your hypothesis by the materials you choose, and talent search tests in the future.

    I believe that you will find the testing to be very worthwhile, even though it isn't what you are expecting. Try to lower your expectations and be open to what the testing will be 'in your particluar situation.'

    I'm so pleased for you. We will be here, no matter what!
    Trinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Joined: May 2006
    Posts: 865
    C
    cym Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    C
    Joined: May 2006
    Posts: 865
    The only advice I gave to my kids was to enjoy, work hard, do your best. My kids have all really enjoyed their testing (one on one time with an adult...rather rare in our family).

    I'm having my DS 13 IQ test next week! I know he's old, but I never applied for the first 2 sons and now their test data is ancient. I'm not doing the portfolio stuff. DS13 is nervous ("What if my IQ scores went down?"). I told him that first they're not supposed to change and second it doesn't matter. If you don't qualify for YS(which I'd find difficult to believe) it's no big deal. If you do, great!

    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    Kriston,

    You have already received some great advice about what you SHOULD do.

    I�ll share what we (my son and I) did wrong on the day he took the SBV last year.

    I had Map Quest directions, but took a different route and got lost in high-crime area on the way to testing arriving in the nick of time rather than early as I had hoped. I�m sure the tester�s expectations were immediately lowered when my son explained that I got lost on the way there!!! My advice is to make a dry run to the office a day or two earlier.

    I would also advise you tell your DS to take the test seriously and to do his best. I should have stressed this more with my son, but I was afraid of making it seem like too big of a deal! The psychologist made a point to tell me that DS was sooo relaxed that he actually slid out of his chair and unto the floor at one point!

    One last piece of advice that I didn�t use for my son�s SB-V testing is to bring an ice-breaker item such as a favorite toy or book. My son had some favorite books to show a different psychologist when he was tested on the SB-IV at six years old. He developed an immediate rapport with her which I�m sure helped ensure best effort.

    Your son is at an optimal age for IQ testing. I�m sure he will enjoy the challenging games and do quite well!






















    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Thanks for all the help! I love this group! laugh

    Just one correction, Trinity: I don't actually expect this one test to answer all my schooling questions. But I still maintain that it IS an important piece of evidence. And we REALLY need more evidence right now!

    I am a firm believer that you have to go into testing with specific questions that you are trying to answer. Just wanting to know my child better isn't specific enough for me. We have two basic questions we're trying to answer with the help of this test: 1) Is DS6 eligible for YSP?, and 2) What educational options are going to be better/worse choices for him?

    It seems to me that there's a big difference between how you approach the education of a level 2 or 3 GT kid--which is where I THOUGHT he was--and a level 4 or 5 kid--which is where his achievement test scores are leading us. If he's a level 4 or 5, we're probably not going to even try to go back to the public schools with him. I just don't think our local schools (probably level 2 or a low 3) could give him what he needs if he's at level 4-5. If he's a level 2 or 3, then my attitude might be different there. Different set of circumstances entirely.

    I guess I'm seeing this test as a sort of tie-breaker between what I thought and what the WJ-III seems to be telling me. We had been assuming that while public school wouldn't always be ideal for DS, he wouldn't require significant differentiation. Then we got his WJ-III scores, and we had no choice but to re-examine our apparently faulty assumptions and do some research into gifted education. I read Dr. Ruf's book for the first time about 6 weeks ago. (That's how new all of this is for us!) The book and his scores showed me that he's at least a level 3, more probably a level 4, and he could well be as high as a level 5 (he doesn't do all of the things that "all level 5s" did, but he did many things several months earlier than the level 4s, and the test scores indicate level 4-5 for sure). Surprise! So at which level is he? And what does that mean for how we approach his education? Thus the "tiebreaker" test!

    So that's why I say that I don't think I really need the "you're an expert on your child" talk. I already KNOW that I've been wrong about him and wrong about his needs. I have not been the expert I thought I was. I still had books for 4-year-olds on his shelves, and he was ready to read books for 9-year-olds! (When I bought harder books, he said, "Thanks, mom. I've been needing more of a challenge." Doh!!) We hadn't really been doing any math work with him whatsoever, and he's just as advanced in math as he is verbally. I had no idea! So I'm trying to figure out just how wrong I was, and what does that mean for his education.

    What's stressing me out more than anything is the fact that I was so wrong about my child and that our whole plan for the next 11-1/2 years has had to go out the window. Now we need to come up with a new plan. (Albeit one not so far-reaching! We're now taking things one day at a time instead!) I'm actually hoping this test will UNstress me somewhat by telling us more clearly what he's capable of. We could use a little more clarity as we sit down to make decisions about what to do next year.

    And if the test gets him in to YSP, with its free educational consulting, so much the better! smile

    Again, thanks for all the words of wisdom, support, concern, help, etc. Even just writing about it here has helped me to feel a little less nervous about this whole process and all the decisions we have to make in DS's future. grin


    Kriston
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Oh, and Dottie, it's good to know that the WJ-III can test high in the early years. Thanks for that bit of insight. If the two tests don't line up, then I'll have a better sense of why. (And I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's what happens!)

    That means there's no down side! Either he's profoundly gifted or I wasn't as wrong as I seemed to be. LOL!


    Kriston
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,231
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,231
    Hi Kriston,

    I'm sorry you are feeling stressed that you believe you were wrong about your son. I know what you mean, we used to think of our daughters as "the smart one" and "the athletic one" Well, the athletic one is also the highly gifted one. I had no idea, her personality is much different than our first daughter. She was almost 5 when tested and refered to the psychologist as a "buck head" at some point during the testing, so we don't know how seriously she even took the whole process. She still sticks her finger up her nose and thinks it is funny. If we told people she was smart, I'm sure they wouldn't believe it. smile

    Don't sweat it, it happens. smile
    I wish your son a great testing day!

    Incongneato

    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Kriston - Wow what a difference between your two posts! To me this illustrates how important it is to have peers to talk or write to and get a chance to empty out the contents of the "ashtry of isolation" that most of us parent in.

    I'm so glad that you wrote both posts. Both are good. I first one is the whirring of a mind that has forgotten it has allies. The second is your own good thinking after remembering that you will never be alone with this again.

    You have come so far in 6 weeks - a real sign of your devotion to your child. I wish that every parent was a willing as you are to take a fresh look at their child, gifted or not, and see them again.

    Smiles,
    Trinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    My husband and I attended a seminar session by Dr. Deborah Ruf this summer.

    Her book is definitely on my top five recommendation list for parents of gifted children.

    She pointed out that she has met parents whose children have received astronomical numbers on IQ tests, but stated that their children did not meet the developmental milestones for levels four or five gifted. She commented that the high scores is those cases are misleading.

    I tend to look at early developmental milestones over the course of years as a slightly more valid indication than a three hour test session. Most schools around here couldn�t care less about either of those, so I believe above level achievement test results are the strongest supporting indicator for academic modification (even these can be artifically low if the child has not been exposed to a higher level education). I have rediscovered through my son�s experiences how some teachers manipulate grading, so I don�t consider straight As the most compelling evidence of intellectual giftedness.


    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    I was paraphrasing Dr. Ruf�s comments given during the first of her four scheduled sessions as I understood her.

    I do think IQ testing is important for educational decisions, but as CFK mentioned, less important as the child progresses in school. In this area, the public schools only accept there own group tests and our Catholic school educators don�t acknowledge that any kid is gifted, or assert that they all are, depending on the year. So IQ scores are less important here than they may be elsewhere.

    My son has been tested three times, including the WPPSI, SB-IV, and SB-V. He has never scored below the gifted threshold, but did considerable better with the PhD who took a developmental history, than with the other testers who did not. I certainly believe a child will perform better with someone they enjoy and after a good night�s sleep and healthy meal.



    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Originally Posted by CFK
    I agree with delbows about the above level tests. After elementary, IQ scores don't seem to mean much anymore and I don't think it's just because the tests are not as accurate at the older ages for gifted children. It becomes more about what you are actually doing than what you are able to do. I think after the IQ testing is done, Kriston, you should take a look at the SCAT or some such test. Above level tests seem to give more relevant numbers than IQ scores in my opinion, and they also seem to be more attuned to academic success than achievement tests (WJ, WIAT, etc.). That's why I'm looking at having my middle DS take the SAT this winter. I think that will give me much more useful information on how to plan his high school years than an IQ score. (especially since he has three of them!)

    Hi CFK,
    I find this idea very attractive. Can you flesh it out a little more. I'm gearing up to sign my DS11 up for the SATs this year or next. When he took the SCAT in 3rd, he scored over a standard deviation above the other gifted kids, which meant nothing to the school, but at least assured me that we were in the Young Scholar Program ballpark. How specifically do you use the above level test results to plan High School?
    Thanks -
    Trinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Hi all! Thanks for all the support and help.

    We're back...and we don't know a whole lot more than we did before the test.

    It turns out that despite DS's unbelievable pattern-identifying ability, he's apparently not really a visual-spatial learner. (So, I guess we did learn THAT from the test! But I don't think that bit of knowledge was worth the testing fee. LOL!) DS had significant trouble with one part of the SB-V that our tester--who is a top expert in GT testing--said tends to trip up non-VS kids. DS just couldn't see the forest for the trees, so the score in that subtest was lower (probably significantly lower, according to the tester) than would be accurate for DS.

    Furthermore, the tester thought that having this trouble so early in the test threw DS off his game from then on. These factors, combined with not-PG-level scores on both memory subtests meant that the total test score was nearly 2 full standard deviations below his achievement test scores. The tester said he's confident that DS is "definitely" HG (he tested as such, bad subtest score and all), is probably EG (as he scores if you drop the one bad subtest score), and is possibly PG...but the SB-V wasn't the one to show it. The tester then recommended that we re-test in 2-6 months with the WISC and see if that suits DS better.

    Oh, and without sounding like I'm making excuses, DS couldn't go to sleep until 2 hours past his normal bedtime and had to get up an hour before his usual waking time, and he was on the verge of a fever that manifested 36 hours after the test. So all-in-all, Tuesday was not a great test day for DS!

    Still, I'm loathe to chase a number, so we're debating about whether or not to bother testing again. I'd love some advice. Here's our thinking:

    The one really vital piece of info we got was that unless we grade skip (or else require 4-6 special accomodations that the school wouldn't want to do), the tester felt that public school probably won't work for DS. (We concur.) Since the biggest benefit to our particular DS that public school has over the homeschooling is participation in sports, grade acceleration isn't something we're excited about. (Though I am a big believer that it's a great solution in many situations...) So public school is probably out for now, barring some ingenious solution we (and our not-remotely-creative school system!) have yet to think of, though we're not ruling out sending him for high school. We have much time before we have to worry about that!

    The other educational option for us now besides homeschooling would be one of the private gifted academies in town, but they are prohibitively expensive. If we're going to go that route, we'd probably have to have the test scores to get him into YSP so that we might have the chance for some tuition help.

    So here's the $64,000 question: do we have him take the WISC and keep our fingers crossed that he gets the 145, or keep homeschooling as we're doing now, and not bother to re-test? I'm not sure it's worth the hassle, cost, etc. to find out for sure if he's PG, particularly if we're going to continue to homeschool. Those of you in YSP: is it worth our while to chase the score that would get DS into YSP if we're not 100% sure that he's PG? Any help would be appreciated!

    So, to summarize: We still don't know if he's elegible for YSP or not. We still don't know if he's level 3, 4 or 5 gifted. We still don't really have enough info to decide what educational path to take for next year. And now we have a new decision to make: re-test or no?

    You called it, Trinity! Apparently my expectations were, indeed, too high. I was REALLY hoping to get SOME sort of useful info out of this test! But no, 'twas not to be.

    *sigh*


    Kriston
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    ((pout))
    Sorry about no clean answer K...it's great when it does happen.
    As for the expensive private school - all of them do have financial aid packages, and it's questionable that YSP's financial aid would be more generous that that.

    I would seriously looking the various schooling options, so that at least you "know" what's availible. Homeschooling has lots of advantages, but bricks and mortar schools have more to offer than athletics. Just spend time sittling in the public school class your child could be gradeskipped into, and the private schools. Then you will be homeschooling because you love it, not because you didn't look behind the curtian. (My Humble Opinion - LOL)

    The good news is that your child is solidly Level III or more. I would certianly fill out paperwork for Davidson's YSP - it's not a sure thing, but worth a try. You know that unaccomidated regular school isn't worth trying - that's a lot of sanity right there. Ruf talks about the differences between Level III, IV and V being very dependent on environment and personality, and quite fluid for some children. Other children are talking and reading at 6 months of age, and well, there is less mystery about certian questions, such as school.

    Did your tester have any ideas about the WISC or YSP elegibility? I would drop him an email about it.

    Best Wishes,
    Trinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Thanks for the advice, all! I'm not sure what the policy on responding to messages is, but I'm doing a one-by-one response here in one message. I hope that's okay. I certainly don't want to offend people who are offering such GREAT help to me! laugh
    *****

    Dottie: The doc told me DS's scores, but we don't have the written report yet. With the low subtest (a 9/19) included, he got a 134. If we toss that one subtest, he scored 138. Not sure what the doc was basing his observations of HG/EG/PG on, now that you ask. He's the expert, and his comments didn't set off any alarm bells for me, so I just accepted what he said. (duh!) I'll ask him.

    DS is very verbal. He was most consistent and high-scoring on the verbal part of the SB-V, without a doubt. Lots of 17/19s. Only the memory subtest tripped him up. I think he got a 14 there, which is probably enough to keep him out of YSP range on the verbal. But maybe that means the WISC would be more likely to show his strengths to his best advantage? Hmmm...
    *****

    J: You ask if things line up with my expectations. I'll repeat: I really have a hard time answering that!

    If you asked me to hazard a guess 6 months ago, I'd have guessed DS was probably a vanilla gifted (just plain G or maybe MG) kid. EVERYTHING he's done, tested, demonstrated, etc. indicates that he's higher than that. The one thing I'm sure of now is that he's NOT level 2 or below!

    As I understood Dr. Ruf's book, it seems that DS could be anything from level 3 to level 5. My gut says he was probably level 3-4 before homeschooling, where he now has a much greater opportunity for self-direction and the passion that flows from self-directed study. His dates on Dr. Ruf's checklist put him somewhere between a 3-5--he did most things earlier than the level 3s, and he didn't do everything that is listed as an "all level 5s do thus-and-so," so I guess I'd place my bets on level 4.

    Here are the facts:
    He enjoyed books and songs from birth, and held his head up to look around as soon as the epidural was out of his system. (Rough induced-from-zero birth experience!) By the time he was sitting up in his Boppy (assisted sitting), he was looking at board and cloth books with interest and indicating when we was ready to turn the pages by grunting and bouncing. He taught himself letters and numbers by working 2 puzzles (one with the alphabet and the numerals from 0-9, so 36 pieces, and one with his full name spelled out, so 18 pieces) for HOURS every day while he was about 13 months old. I told him the names for the letters and words that started with each letter just to keep ME from losing my mind with boredom! By 15 months, he knew every letter and number, even upside down and backwards, and could make most of the sounds for the letters, too. His patience was astonishing for anything he wanted to learn. Frustration was virtually never apparent...just constant, patient practice. He read his first "easy reader" book that he'd never seen before at 3y.7mo. He could identify every color in the 64-crayon box and the make and model of every car in the _Consumer Reports_ annual auto issue that he saw on the road by the time he was 2...and would correct us if we got either wrong. He could count to 10 in three languages with 1-to-1 correspondence before age 2 and say the alphabet in 3 languages then, too. By age 3 he had moved on to NASCAR (which no one in our family cares one whit about except him), and he had memorized every driver/car colors & numbers/sponsors/etc. for every car on the circuit. He was keyboarding by age 3. He sucked his thumb until age 3, when the dentist told him to stop because it was hurting his mouth; he stopped that day and never once put his thumb back in his mouth. He was writing and illustrating books of his own before age 4 (though the words weren't always legible to anyone but DS...). He grasped simple x+1 = 3 type algebra by age 4. I had a hard time pre-testing him for math for homeschooling this fall because he taught himself how to do the problems he'd never seen before as I was giving him the test.

    So what does all of that mean?

    There's so much overlap on dates on Dr. Ruf's lists, and I don't have anything/anyone to compare him to, so I'm just not sure. I wouldn't be surprised to find that with an appropriate learning environment--which he hasn't gotten (even from us) since he was an infant!--he might very well be a level 5. Or he might be a level 3, and I'm just reading Ruf all wrong.

    I am pretty well persuaded that his achievement test scores were probably too high. I think I could have been wrong about DS by 1 standard deviation; I can't BELIEVE I could have been wrong by two! That's a whole lot of wrong! But I also think his SB-V was probably too low. He is a highly verbal kid. I'm pretty satisfied that DS's skill with patterns and puzzles just threw me (and the psychologist, BTW), and we gave him a test that didn't suit him. He's likely to test better on the WISC.

    As for having a HG in public school...we are currently homeschooling, and it is the right choice for us for this year. I don't mean to say that no HG can go to public school. (Though Dr. Ruf's work would seem to indicate that a level 1 or 2 school is pretty unlikely to promote thriving for an HG or higher child, even with special adaptations...) But I agree completely with the psychologist that OUR HG+ cannot thrive in OUR school system, which does little to support gifted kids. Even with grade advancement--which would be a BIG fight to get--I'm not sure he'd do okay there. Homeschooling has been our saving grace this year!

    My only hesitation with keeping up the homeschooling is really a selfish one: I'm trying to finish a novel, and I'm getting nowhere on it this year. But I think I'm coming to grips with that reality. It will just have to get done when it gets done.
    *****

    Trinity: I didn't know what the Davidson's policy for financial aid is, if there was a need-based component. Thanks for the help there. We're in that middle class dilemma: we almost certainly earn too much to qualify for need-based financial aid, but we don't earn enough to send DS to private school without decimating his college fund. We're not willing to do that when homeschooling is working about 90% great.

    We may merely need to make some fairly minor course corrections (mainly to preserve the sanity of this introvert mom! LOL!) and keep going as we are now. There's a LOT we all like about homeschooling, and when DH and I were discussing other options for DS's education, DS jumped in with a heartfelt "I want to keep homeschooling!" argument. He's very happy.

    I don't think we're simply defaulting to homeschooling. Especially in the light of the very helpful "deeper, not just faster" discussion in the calculus trap thread, I think homeschooling is probably DS's best option. If it weren't for my need for alone time and my novel, I don't think I'd have any question about it being the best option for our family.

    So, in short, we're mostly doing as you suggest: covering our bases. I need evidence before I make decisions! So we're gathering it.
    *****

    So after reading everything you all wrote and thinking through what we need to know...I'm still on the fence about DS's taking the WISC. *sigh*

    Homeschooling is certainly the most attractive option for us as far as getting a good education at a price we can afford. So any help we might get from YSP (financial and otherwise) might not be vital to us. We can afford to pay for the test...but I don't know that we need to.

    I guess I have more thinking to do...

    Thanks again! It's so nice to be able to walk through all this with people who GET IT and can offer such good help! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you for indulging me and my babbling!

    K-


    Kriston
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,231
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Oct 2007
    Posts: 2,231
    Hi all,

    Concerning the cost for the WISC IV; some of the larger insurance companies are taking their mental health benefits back in house and, don't faint now, PAYING for testing in full.

    For one daughter we paid out of pocket for WPPSI. TWO months later when we check back in for our second daughter, BCBS was paying for ALL testing and she got the WISC IV FOR the bargain price of only $20-copay. This change was made around April or May, so it may be worth looking into. She scored in PG range; she seems somewhat similar to your son based on your description. Although, she was unusually quiet and seemed to be observing all the time. Hope this helps and good luck.

    Incog

    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 797
    acs Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 797
    Kriston,
    Did you say whether or not your son enjoyed taking the test and liked the tester? Once my son took his first individual test, he couldn't stop talking about how much fun it was and how much he wanted to do it again. Since we wanted to get more info anyway, we did the second test. But if he hadn't wanted to do it, I doubt we would have. I think that the WISC would be very unlikely to be successful unless he was on board with it.

    It sounds like you have some time to decide. Since he's only 6, you could wait a year and still be well within the ceiling of the test.

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Hmmm, acs...it's hard to say, really, if he liked taking the test. He mostly said he was tired. I did specifically ask, "Are you having fun?" and he said he was having fun. "I'm just tired" was his only additional comment. He certainly wasn't bubbling over or anything, but he's the sort of kid who lets you know if he's hating something, so I think it was probably at least a little fun for him. I certainly wouldn't say he was not on board with it. He's just a real matter-of-fact kind of kid.

    Surprisingly, he said his favorite part of the test was the subtest that he bombed. (More evidence that he REALLY didn't get the point of that particular subtest!) By far his favorite part of the day was getting to build with the marble raceway in the doctor's waiting room, but obviously that was not part of the test...

    I couldn't tell if DS liked the tester or not. Again, he seemed pretty neutral, but with him, there wouldn't be much to tell unless he either REALLY loved or REALLY hated the tester. Aside from his 1st grade teacher, I don't know that he's ever expressed an opinion about an adult, now that I think about it. He's a very logic-minded kid, so we generally talk in terms of liking/disliking people's actions, not liking/disliking people.

    Last night, DH and I did discuss having DS take the WISC with a female psychologist here in town. She specializes in working with gifted kids, too, though she's not the national expert that tester #1 was. Still, we thought DS might do better with a woman. And sleeping in his own bed the night before the test appears to be a requirement...There's something else we learned from the SB-V! wink

    It's good to know that he might not do much better on the WISC-IV. I think we've decided that we might as well give it a try because, as you say, Dottie, more info is better. Even so, if the testing conditions had been optimal the first time around, then we'd probably not bother. But DS was lacking 3 hours of sleep, bordering on sick, and taking a test not really right for his learning style...All of that leads me to believe we ought to give it one more try, just to see if there's anything else we can learn.

    I'll check with the insurance company, incogneato. Thanks for the tip!

    Thanks again, all! laugh


    Kriston
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Nope, Dottie, when I say bombed I mean BOMBED! DS got a 9 on the subtest. It was the "find what's impossible or silly" subtest, and DS got wrapped up in details and didn't really answer the questions, I guess. The tester said "He couldn't see the forest for the trees." DS is totally a detail sort of kid, very literal, so that makes sense.

    On the two working memory subtests, he got a 12 and a 14 (verbal). Not bombing, but not exceptional enough for YSP either. All the other verbal subtests were 16 or higher--mostly 17s, if memory serves. He got a 19+ out of 19 on the pattern recognition subtest, maxing out the test. But unlike his consistent performance on the verbal half, his performance on the non-verbal half of the test was very uneven.

    Your theory is interesting. I didn't ask DS6 if he were challenged. Hmmm...


    Kriston
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Thanks, Dottie. But I think you misunderstand me a bit. I'm not worried or upset about DS's performance. Not even disappointed. I think he did just fine. My only wish is that we would have gotten a more definitive answer about whether he is YSP-qualified or not. He's in that gray area, and I'd just really like to KNOW something. When one of the foremost experts in testing gifted kids can't pin down your child as level 3, 4 or 5, then where does that leave you?

    My attitude is this: if DS should be in YSP, then great. If he shouldn't be, well, that's great, too. I don't really know what he's missing, so I'm not stressed about it at all. It wouldn't bother me if we just shrugged the WISC off and didn't test him again. But DH figures we spent the first $750, so we might as well spend another $750 and actually get a result for our money (we hope!). If he'd had a good test day last week, then we'd be done with it. He didn't, so here we are...

    And actually, I would have assumed that the one "bombed" subtest was a good read of DS if the tester hadn't said, "I saw what was going on in his head, and this was NOT a valid indicator of your DS's abilities! If I were reporting his score, I'd be very comfortable with dropping that subtest." Then the tester explained what the test was and what the problem was, and I saw what he meant. But I was/am honestly not hoping for anything in particular from DS's scores. What difference does it really make to me if he's level 3 or level 5? I just want to know what his scores are and know that they are a (mostly?) accurate reflection of his abilities, whatever those abilities are. And then I want to know what my best options for educating him are.

    I just didn't want you to think that I'm some sort of stage mother, Dottie! I love DS just the way he is...I'd just like to know exactly what it is that I'm loving! smile


    Kriston
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 797
    acs Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 797
    Kritson,
    I have struggled with the Davidson question for my DS, who I think is a level 4 on a good day and a high 3 on a bad day. I would have thought that he would qualify based what he is able to do and when he has been able to do it, but he has never had the scores to prove it, due to various issues with the testing (mostly ceiling stuff and boredom with certain subscales of the WISC, but also someone who gave him the wrong subtests!). I haven't wanted to apply through portfolio because I figured that they would probably follow-up asking for more testing, which I didn't want to do for a while. So that all leaves me, like you, wondering if he "should" be in Davidson or if I am overperceiving my child's abilities.

    The truth is that Davidson has a hard job in deciding who to accept and who not to. They get many applications each month. The tests are not anywhere close to perfect at discrimiting between children at the higher levels of gifted. I like to think that kids who are at the highest levels will easily meet the criteria, but kids with lower-highs (probably the medium 3's to lowish 4's) are going to be a difficult call. Some will meet their criteria and others may not. It isn't like there really can be a firm line that is drawn; everyone above is a DYS and everyone below isn't. Kids are all different from each other and they have different results based on the test, the day, the tester etc. There is just a continuum and a few somewhat inaccurate tools for measuring it. And there are more kids around the cut-off scores than there are at the highest levels. And they make the decisions based on paper applications, not from meeting the kids (which would be impossible to do). As I said, I think they have a hard job.

    What we have decided is to have DS take those tests which will help us with other issues and if we finally get the score that meets DYS criteria, we will apply. But if we don't, as you say, he's still our kid and we love him just the way he is.

    For us, in the end, our son's personality and interests have probably guided us more than the test scores.


    Last edited by acs; 11/04/07 08:54 PM.
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Hi Kriston,
    I'm thinking that it's a good idea to apply to YSP as is - and be sure to include the report (highlighted maybe) that the tester would like to drop the subtest. YSP really does understand the sometimes deeper thinking DOES lead to lower test scores.

    My son got a "9" on a subtest If WISC III, but he qualified because all his variability was on the performance side, and the verbal side had the uniform high. I'm not sure if SB-V has "sides" or some informal equivalent.

    My guess is that for every kid who has qualifing scores, there are 3 more who are so close! My dream is that we can all met here and support each other. In a way, every one of these kids are quite different from eachother, but in a way the story is so similar:

    1) Other kids don't get them
    2) Many teacher don't get them
    3) Local friends don't get them, or YOU!
    4) The have special educational needs, that may or may not be able to be met in a regular or modified environment.

    I'm so glad you are able to homeschool for now, and I have hopes that by the time he gets to Middle School material, there will be a way for him to enjoy the benifits of "bricks and mortar" schools IF that turns out to be who he is.

    Remember that according to "normal development" it is impossible for elelementary aged kids to do abstract reasoning. So in many places nothing that is taught in elementary school is taught that way. As my son goes through 7th grade, I see the school is adding bits of this kind of thinking to their expectations, slowly and carefully, but each drop is like precious water to my DS11.

    Smiles,
    Trinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Thanks Dottie -
    I pulled the 1:3 number out of the air - but then again - that's my special gift!
    Trinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Thanks, all! Very helpful! I think I'll wait for the formal report from the psychologist, take another look at the requirements for YSP, and then decide if I should apply now or not. The tester did actually suggest that I submit the WJ-III scores now so that Davidson would be less likely to ask us to re-test on those. But I dunno...I'm with ACS that I think I should have the numbers to back me up before we make a move. There's no reason to clog up the Davidson maibox if DS isn't meeting the requirements. And since I wouldn't know what to include in a portfolio...

    I did go back and take another hard look at Dr. Ruf's book with DS6's baby book in hand, and I'm sure he's a level 4 at least. With the actual dates in front of me, not just working from memory, it's clear to me that he's not a level 3, and his dates don't line up with the level 5 as well as they do with the level 4s. But his curiosity is mind-blowing. I wonder if he might be one of those "floater" kids who moves back and forth between 4 and 5, depending on his interest in the subject matter. Just last night--with a 101-degree fever!--he asked about what causes feedback loops, why green beans are classified as a vegetable rather than a fruit even though they have seeds inside like fruit, how our eyes work, and how language originated.

    When I'm sick, all I want to do is turn my brain off and watch "Law and Order" reruns! But DS wants to learn! About everything! All the time! LOL!


    Kriston
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Kriston -
    All the above post is exactly what goes into a portfolio. A 30 day question log might be just the thing. I would certianly add the milestones, as they are familiar with Dr.Ruf's work. Please don't worry about clogging them up - there have a mission to serve and the more we show who we are the better they can develop that mission.

    ((shrug)) Who knows - not me!
    I just know that as they get older, and more self consious, it can be harder to get a clear picture of what is going on.
    smiles -
    Trinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Really? That's what goes in the portfolio? I hadn't considered DS's questions and that kind of stuff for a portfolio, Trinity. I figured it would have to be worksheets and artwork and that sort of thing.

    Okay, now I'm thinking portfolio might be the way to go for us. It certainly beats chasing a test score. (Gag.) At least then I'd feel like the committee got a true look at what DS is capable of. He's in or out on his own merits and actual accomplishments. That's good!

    Aside from the "regular" milestones ala Ruf, excerpts from his baby book as they seem to apply, and his test scores, what else would you put in a portfolio?

    I've got a photo of DS as a baby, propped up in his Boppy and studying a book. The interest in his eyes is unmistakable...and worth 1000 words! Maybe the photos I took of his drawings of cars on his magnetic drawing board when he was about a year old? (I think? I made sure to date the photos, but I can't recall now when he was drawing them. He seemed really young to be creating recognizable images, that I know...)

    What else goes in?

    Hmmm...I must put some thought into this now...

    Thanks, Trinity! Very helpful, as always! smile


    Kriston
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    It does help lots, Jill. Thanks! Obviously I wasn't thinking creatively enough on this portfolio thing. As you say, even most PG kids aren't writing novels at age 6! LOL!

    Our DS does have the achievement test scores to qualify him for YSP, just not quite the IQ scores, so portfolio probably does make perfect sense in our case.

    Boy, this has been an exceptionally helpful day on the forum! laugh


    Kriston
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 797
    acs Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 797
    If you have one score that qualifies, then I agree you should submit a portfolio. We actually had a WJ3 that qualified, but waited for more info. When we finally decided to apply, though, they had updated the criteria and no longer accepted the subtests in which DS had qualified and he had not done the subtests they do accept. So there can be a down-side to waiting!

    The point of my earlier post wasn't to discourage applications, but only to make sure that you (and others reading this) weren't entirely defering to the Davidson admission folks to help you decide how gifted you child is. That cluster of kids around the cut-off (the ones who get in and the ones who don't), as Trinity says, are quite similar in the issues they are facing. So whether your child gets in or not, if this board meets your needs, then you probably have a highly gifted kid, regardless of their paper scores.

    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Gifted+and+highly+gifted+students%3a+how+do+they+score+on+the+SB5%3f-a0150850213


    Here is an article regarding the highly gifted and SB5 scores.

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Interesting. It looks like DS6 probably does need to take the WISC then if we're going to be able to confirm my observations of his level of giftedness, huh? This article certainly makes it appear that it's unlikely for even established HG+ kids to score 145 or above on SB5.

    I'm still mulling over the portfolio for YSP. I'm having a hard time figuring out what to include that will definitively mark him as HG+ and not "just" MG. Test scores are so much more cut-and-dried...

    *sigh*


    Kriston
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    They psychologist who tested my son on the SB5 told me to choose the WISC-IV if I needed a high score. I chose the SBV instead only because I wanted proof for math subject acceleration.

    DS was already a YS, although I didn't mention that to the psych. He most likely thought I was looking for a 130 (rather than 145+)for some GT identification. Kriston, too bad your son can't take the WISC III!

    Last edited by delbows; 12/06/07 08:58 AM.
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    DS has the Achievement test scores--he blew the WJ away: 159 Total Achievement, just to name one...But he was over 150 in 3 of the "big 4" areas, and was at 144 in the 4th. He's YSP all the way in achievement scores. No question.

    I'm wondering if I could submit the SBV with this article and see what they think. This part in particular made me wonder:

    "As this article was being written, Riverside Publishing was in the process of posting a suggested gifted cutoff that allows use of the Abbreviated Battery, either the Nonverbal or Verbal IQ alone, the Gifted Composite score, or a combination of ability domain scores to be valid in assessing giftedness."

    His "Fluid Reasoning" score (which I assume uses the verbal and nonverbal subtests, right?) was "147+". His full-scale score was "134+" without adaptation. (The pluses are the tester's, not mine.) The noverbal knowledge subtest and both working memory subtests are what pulled him down.

    How sticky is YSP about the second test score? If you have one qualifying score, are they flexible on the second?

    ...Or maybe we should just bite the bullet, pay for the WISC and see what happens...

    ...and I'm still churning away on what to submit in a portfolio...How does one show HG+ in a 6yo who isn't writing novels or doing calculus yet? confused


    Kriston
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    The requirement was "within two years" when my son applied.

    I don�t know how insistent they are for both. I would think they need both, but others here have indicated they have heard of some flexibility.

    My son had taken the SB-IV a year and a half prior to applying for DYS. When I learned of the program, I took him in for WIAT testing.

    He met the criteria for both, so I asked his first grade teacher to write a letter of recommendation. When his assistant principle heard we were applying, she volunteered to write a second letter of recommendation.

    My daughter�s verbal score (at the time) fell one point short of qualification and some of her WIAT scores fell at the 99+ percentile. I didn�t chase the scores for her because she seemed to fit her school situation after a single skip to a new school. We were desperate to find support for our son though. Both kids have benefited since his acceptance to the program.

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Really, last I checked, they said 2 years?

    Yes, that's still what the website says. Has this changed?

    I hope not! It takes me 6 months to do ANYTHING lately. By the time I got started on the application, I'd be late! frown

    Last edited by Kriston; 12/06/07 10:12 AM. Reason: Oops, our paths crossed there!

    Kriston
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    That helps, delbows. Thanks! And thanks to you, too, Dottie.

    We're trying to figure out what to do next year. Public school is off the table. It just won't cut it for him, we don't believe. So do we plunk down the $$$ for private school, gifted school, or do we home school again?

    Dunno...Maybe YSP could help us figure it out.


    Kriston
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Kriston Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Yup. I'm feeling like I should get on the stick here! smile

    I just wish I knew what to put in a portfolio...I've considered just videotaping EVERYTHING and then finding a stretch of video that shows him, well, being himself! But that's so random!

    *sigh*


    Kriston
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Originally Posted by Kriston
    So do we plunk down the $$$ for private school, gifted school, or do we home school again?

    Dunno...Maybe YSP could help us figure it out.

    Maybe yes, maybe no, but I'm sure that they aren't giving out any easy answers to these questions. If you go with a private school, sit and observe the goings on in the class they would put him in.

    I've forgotten what your status with professional testing, but this is just the sort of thing that experienced testers sell as their usefulness.

    from http://www.amendpsych.com/faqs.html#question_1
    Quote
    once the results are obtained, a psychologist with a background in giftedness can discuss these in the context of giftedness, specifying how these results will impact school performance and personal adjustment. This psychologist can then provide specific recommendations for you, your child, and his/her education.

    shruggs,
    Trinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

    Moderated by  M-Moderator, Mark D. 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by aeh - 03/27/24 01:58 PM
    Quotations that resonate with gifted people
    by indigo - 03/27/24 12:38 PM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 03/23/24 06:11 PM
    California Tries to Close the Gap in Math
    by thx1138 - 03/22/24 03:43 AM
    Gifted kids in Illinois. Recommendations?
    by indigo - 03/20/24 05:41 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5