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    Joined: Sep 2007
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    Originally Posted by kcab
    Peace!

    Oh, I'm 100% with you on the peace! As I said, I meant only respectful and cheerful discussion. laugh I wasn't picking on you or trying to fight. Just interested in your take on this topic.

    Your posts have made me really have to think, and I like that. Truth be told, I never really considered what "gifted" meant before this conversation. You made me have to think about it, to consider why the word didn't bother me. That's useful to me, and I'm grateful!

    I am indeed coming to the conclusion that I don't agree with your take on this matter--though I didn't know that for sure at the start this discussion--but I absolutely believe that you have every right to your opinion, and I really appreciate your sharing it with me. As a former teacher of argumentative writing (I'm sure that comes as a surprise...NOT!), I place a lot of value on discussing issues with those with whom I disagree even after I realize that I disagree. It's how I a) clarify my own thoughts, and b) test my beliefs--sometimes I decide to change my mind as a result, and sometimes I just reconfirm that my beliefs make sense for me. Both have value.

    The one thing I wasn't trying to do was change your mind. I don't know you, really, so I have no investment one way or another in your beliefs. I was actually trying to be sure of my own beliefs on the matter, and I was responding to your question. (Always beware of asking me even a rhetorical question...I will feel compelled to answer! LOL!)

    Plus I thought that maybe I'm the only one here who feels this way. If you're speaking for the majority, then I'd kind of like to know that, too.

    I hope I didn't offend you. That was not my intention whatsoever! I respect you, respect your right to believe whatever you believe. I hope you DON'T go away! I'm glad that it sounds like you probably won't. You're very interesting to talk with!

    May I ask one more question? (And please, feel free to ignore me if I'm being a nuisance! You made it clear that you wouldn't be at all sorry to let this drop. I hear you!)
    Originally Posted by kcab
    I don't know, part of this is that, to me, the word "gifted" has value/judgement overtones. The phrase "natural ability" isn't burdened in the same way.

    To what "value/judgement overtones" are you referring? Elitism? Something else? I'm not sure I'm following you, and I'd like to.

    Thanks! smile


    Kriston
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    kcab and Kriston,

    I've been following this conversation with interest. I remember some of the kids in the GT program at my brother's school being called "gifties" (and not in a friendly way) by other kids. It makes me wonder if he would have the same reaction to the word "gifted" that I do.

    I don't find it offensive, but I do avoid using it around teachers and other parents. I just have the feeling that if I say my kid is "gifted" that other people interpret that as saying that other kids are "not gifted". I think this is an inherent problem with labels and not specific to the term "gifted".

    Politicians (of every stripe!) use this kind of thinking to their advantage. If one group claims a positive-sounding label for themselves their opponents are stuck with its negative-sounding opposite--whether or not it actually describes their position on that particular issue.

    By using such a broad term like "gifted" we are sort claiming too much for our group and leaving others with too much negativity, i.e. "non-giftedness." If we use a term with a more limited scope, such as "academically gifted" or "athletically gifted" we are leaving room for those outside our group to have other kinds of gifts instead of no gifts at all.

    Cathy

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    To kcab: May I see if I'm following you? The potentially positive association with the root word "gift" is problematic for you because being "gifted" isn't necessarily a positive thing? Is that right?

    I don't mean to beat this horse to a pulp, but I'm feeling dense here...


    Kriston
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    Originally Posted by gratified3
    This is a long-winded way of saying that I think to be good at music, arts, or athletics, you actually have to work eventually. You may be gifted early, but you don't get to high levels without some effort. But to be good at academic things through high school, many people don't have to work at all.
    J


    True...and what a shame that is!

    It sounds like you had enough going on in your life, J, that you didn't necessarily need one more struggle. But the thought of so many kids going through their entire public school lives without being challenged academically seems to me to be a travesty of what school is supposed to be. Why should athletes and artists who have to work to succeed be different from academically gifted kids? There's no earthly reason for this "coasting" behavior, aside from the convenience of schools and personnel who don't see the value in challenging these kids and/or who don't want to put in the work themselves.

    BTW, I know I should really stop chiming in. Sorry. On the bright side, more people are joining this discussion. That's a good thing in my book. I'm loving the responses.

    Again, Trinity, thanks for starting this! smile


    Kriston
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    Originally Posted by gratified3
    My experience has lead me to feel the "accelerate or not" question is far more complicated than usually discussed on these boards. In failing to accelerate, I evolved as a kid who didn't know how to work and who expected all academic things to be effortless. But I also evolved as a kid who could do a wide variety of activities well, thought of myself as successful, and had an easy (and happy) school life as a child. Seems to me there are positives and negatives on both sides.

    J

    Thanks for bringing up the complexity of skipping. I was skipped one grade and vowed to never do that to my child unless it was the only option(that would be my baggage right there). The single grade skip did little to challenge me academically, but I felt like it made my social life harder in elementary and middle school. I had good friends in my old grade and had trouble making new friends once I skipped--I just felt like I didn't fit. And I remember how annoying it was when I finally had made friends that they all started going nuts for boys more than a year before I did (I was a late bloomer to start with and the skip just increased the gap between me and the other girls).

    By high school, I had made friends and things went pretty well. I was still not challenged academically, but, as a result, had lots of time to challenge myself socially. I was president of a few clubs and held student body offices. I kept statistics for sports and got to travel around the state with the teams. I am actually a pretty shy person with totally average leadership skills and so these were great opportunities and real challenges for me. I was never going to run for office again in my life, but being really smart in a smallish school gave me many chances to try my wings that I would not have had if I had been skipped up to the point where I would have been challenged academically. I went into college with a lot more poise and confidence because I had already had chances to get out of my comfort zone. I even wondered at the time how much more might have accomplished in HS had I not had that one year of elementary "stolen" from my by skipping.

    I just think that there are plenty of ways of challenging kids that do not involve skipping grades and that is what we are trying to do with our son. We have DS subject accelerated in a few subjects and he is doing music, sports, and a foreign language on his own, plus he has plenty of time to run around and play with the neighborhood kids. He is happy. We were offered a skip this year and he turned it down. He says wants to be with his class--I think he feels the same loyalty to his class as I did, and I plan to respect that.

    Knowing that most of us feel insecure about our parenting decisions, I am afraid that this posting will create more anxiety. That is not my intent. I do think that there could have been circumstances that would have made me decide to skip DS. I don't suggest that those of you whose kids skipped have done anything wrong or that you should second-guess your decisions. I just suspect that gifted people will have baggage whether they are skipped or not. As Gratified3 said, it's complicated. There are benefits and problems both ways and you have to weigh them for your own circumstance.


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    What an interesting discussion.

    I have found the topic of baggage and parenting overlapping with the term "gifted" lately. As my oldest DD5 has entered the school system this fall I have realized that when discussing her ability I often referred to her as "advanced" or refer directly to her grade level equivalency. I do not use the term "gifted." When others do I am uncomfortable. In fact, a friend pointed out that I would have to stop choking on the word and come to terms with it. I guess I am coming to terms with a number of things at this stage in my life.

    As I advocate for DD in school I am bombarded with memories of my own experiences. Like others who have previously postponed my parents did not advocate acceleration. When I recently discussed with my mother about subject acceleration she said it was all teacher driven and she would never have spoken up or challenged the school had nothing ever been done. How fortunate I was to have many exceptional teachers along the way.

    Middle school years were difficult. I believe they are for most children regardless of ability. I did not identify with trivial friendships and made up boy-girl relationship. I fared much better in high school when I was able to connect with older students (counter to the old anti-acceleration argument). Academically I had more opportunities to take more interesting classes (at least a couple) and I busied myself with any activity offered. I did not realize until adulthood that my need to join everything from the math club, school play, track, school government, etc. was my attempt to fill the void.

    Along with childhood baggage I bring an array of teaching baggage having spent a number of years in the classroom before reinventing myself into an entirely different career. As another poster mentioned I am trying to balance idealism with realism.

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    Grinity Offline OP
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    Praise is such a tough thing, isn't it?
    There are so many kids who need it, and so many kids who are hurt by it.

    One of the things I love about posting here is that many of you are kind enough to say that what I say is helpful. It is so healing for me to get praised for my skills that I value, instead of for things that don't even feel like skills to me. When folks make a fuss over 'what came naturally' I get that nervous feeling that my mask is slipping and an attack may follow if I don't run for cover soon. When I get praised for how much I care - then I glow!

    Love and More Love,
    Trinity


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    Thanks. Like I said, the horse is dead and I DO get that! But I am almost compulsive about my need to understand a person's position. I think I'm with you now.

    Add my positive (and wet!) vibes to yours for California...


    Kriston
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    When I was in high school (SO many yrs ago!), our gifted cluster was called MG (for Mentally Gifted...as if the term "gifted" didn't offend enough). It was absolutely great, if you were in it. We were excused from any class if we needed to meet with our "MG Mentor" or search college resources. We went to a handful of excellent theater performances and could take the rest of the day off (we'd end up shopping downtown). Recruiters from different colleges would come talk to the girls...another way to get out of class.

    One of my best friends who was ranked 4th out of 462 in a city-wide gifted magnet school was so soured on the MG program because of elitism or something (I don't know if I ever figured out why she opposed it) refused to be part of it. I always thought, "Why wouldn't you take advantage of the privileges offered, even if you don't agree with it philosophically?" Maybe she was more sophisticated than I was and had a strong sense of ethics. Or maybe she was stubborn or just not interested--I don't know.

    Anyway, we're starting to develop an official gifted ed program for our charter middle school. I've been talking to the president of the governing council, who has previously been biased against gifted programs. The small school has a full-time special ed teacher who works with four students. I explained that this is an amazing program to service the needs of those 4 lower end students and I thought the 4-5 students on the other end deserved the same servicing of their needs. I think this was probably the most persuasive thing in getting him to understand that it wasn't "privileges" I was asking for...but equitably appropriate education. We'll see what comes of it.

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    I have read these posts with great interest. Recently, another parent and I had a conversation about school. She began to say how everyone is gifted and every parent calls their child gifted. The overuse of this word by the school system has made it where no one is truly gifted anymore. I don't care for the word, but last year our school labeled some gifted children with Superior Cognitive Ability. Not sure which one is worse. I wonder if the label gifted is overused by schools or parents and lost its intended meaning?

    My younger brother was a child prodigy in music. I agree with previous posts that even the most talented or "gifted" need proper training. Some things such as pitch or reading music came naturally to him, but he still needed to master his chosen instrument. I saw how hard he worked, but it was fun for him as it was his passion. He ended up majoring as a conductor and is traveling the world with various symphony orchestras. It makes me wonder how many child prodigies are not discovered due to lack of exposure or training?

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