Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Am I too focused on 'gifted'?

Admittedly it was a tiring week of advocacy. I've been focused on getting DS6 harder math and his teacher is insistent that he is appropriately placed. She did make a point to show me some areas where he has weaknesses (e.g., geometry, measurement) and thinks I'd be doing him a disservice if we subject accelerate him because he may not get a good "foundation". I had moments today where I considered that she was right. I know I need to trust my mama gut, but sometimes I question whether I'm making a big deal out of the whole gifted thing. (Only sometimes :)) Today I asked myself: what's the worst thing that could happen if he doesn't get the ideal math experience in public school. I see a happy kid and just couldn't come up with a catastrophic scenario. Anyhow, just venting... I'm sure I'll change my tune tomorrow and be back to hitting my head against the wall .

Hi Jool - sounds like you've had a hard week! Although our DS5 isn't yet in elem. school, we have been meeting with school about next year and we've already gotten a little bit of talk of "foundations." I had an idea about a response, but i'm not sure if it really makes any sense. But I'll throw it out there anyway. Schools are big on cycling/spiraling so that kids get exposed to ideas over and over so they sink in. Can't we respond to the "lack of foundation" and "gap" speech by saying that's if there appears to be a problem in the next level, that's an opportunity to teach our kids something, reinforce, and bring in some of the spiraling they like to do? Just a thought.

You're doing a good job, giving your son a chance to get what he needs.

Jool, what math curriculum does your school use? If they use something like Math Investigations then use it's selling points back at them, "It's a spiraling curriculum, they keep coming back to the same subject at diffent levels" so he'll get it the next time it comes around!

crud, I was about ready to hit the post and see st pauli girl beat me to this! So, I agree with her!

Ah - OHma - you said it much more concisely! I probably absorbed the idea from reading one of your earlier posts.

Hey Jool,
Put your feet up and relax! It's emotinally draining going up against the 'experts.' Take care of yourself and be proud of what you've accomplished so far.

((hugs))
Grinity

What kind of Geometry and Measurements are they talking about?

Geometry: Euclid's Elements in Ancient Hebrew read off a Dead Sea Scroll?

Measurement: Proving Taylor's Error Theorem?

Or is it, "What is a triangle?" and "using a ruler measure a line?"

That might take an hour to teach your DS. And I am sure your DS will do one of the former before he is 18.

<sigh?

The things he "struggled" with were units of measurements and "estimation". For example, he wasn't able to choose the right answer when asked to estimate the weight of an elephant (I think he chose 100,000 pounds). SPGirl and OHG, they use the everyday math curriculum which is spiralled. Oh, she also said he didn't know what "median" meant. She actually said, "It's not like he'll pick it up through osmosis". Um, I think he would - like you alluded to Austin . It's so hard getting these people to buy into the whole PG in math thing. He's taking the SCAT Tuesday, maybe that'll get the message through...
Grin, I think you're right. Time to chill for a while .

I am the world's worst estimator. Seriously, THE worst! If I pick the container to hold the leftovers, I guarantee you it will be way off. I always hope that I won't be an eyewitness and have to describe a criminal, because the height and weight window will be HUGE: "He was...somewhere between 5'3" and 7'0" and he weighed between 100 and 300 pounds."

I wish I were kidding!

And I skipped no math whatsoever. Skipped no grades. I'm just bad at it.

Yet this issue doesn't really matter in my life. Well, I suppose it is occasionally mildly annoying when I need to estimate the weight of my pet elephant...



Jool, If that's the best they've got, shoot 'em down! Shoot hard!

Maybe he's like my DS and finds the whole idea of estimating and medians MESSY!!

Thanks for the chuckle Kriston ... I love the image of a pet elephant.

I really don't have anything to enhance this topic since my child is clearly at the start and hasn't even begun preschool, but the title caught my eye. I ponder this idea especially since I have a toddler. Is it really that important for me to be so involved in this idea of gifted at toddler age? I sometimes wonder if my knowledge of gifted has helped or hindered my situation. I find myself buying more items such as math and reading books that I never would have bought previously but then fear I would be sinking into the black hole of hot housing if I used them and up on a shelf they sit. I know logically that my DD learned what she knows clearly on her own curiosity and would it be so bad to build more into the foundations she has already established but my biggest fear is if I did sit her down and provide some type of curriculum then I am creating this fake sense of gifted. But my fear is by doing that I would be the mom that was shocked that her IQ scores were not at the high end b/c she could already do this and that when in the end it is b/c I guided her into that knowledge. So again ... I think I was better off on the other side of the fence not even linking gifted to my child.

Sweetie - a lable is only any good if it helps you see clearly 'who' your child is. I hate that show 'Family Guy' but it's a great example of a Mom totally missing the boat on her baby's reality. Most kids, unlike Baby Stuie, are pretty good at figuring out what is expected of them, and if we don't 'make it ok' then they may hide before they even get to school.




My guess is that you buy the items because they appeal to you! We are often, not always, that tree that the little appple didn't fall far from, so what we like, usually the child likes. The only way to know is to get them off the shelf and give it a try! Then we have a chance to observe and nurture, or box up those items. trust your powers of observation - a person who's tagline is 'questioning is what I do' isn't going to fall into a black hole of anything (except self doubt, maybe)


How about seeing yourself as creating a real sense of work ethic? I wouldn't push a toddler, but showing her that there is a whole interesting world out there of learning, and that learning for fun is 'natural' you are setting the stage for tommorow's work ethic.



Keep a journal if you are afraid of loosing your objectivity, but is raising a child who is cut of from her inner love of learning because she 'wants to be like Mommy' a better alternative? I'm might be being a bit extreame here, but I really think that if sexism had never existed, and the U.S. had a healthier view of smartness, a Mother would natually 'share' bits of academics with a toddler just like you toss a soft ball to her or take her to the playground. Can you imagine a parent afraid to toss a kid a ball because she didn't want to be dissapointed that the child really didn't have what it takes to be on the Olympic Softball Team?


I've been there, done that, and it took me years to change signals and really 'be there' for my son. Problem is that being on the other side of the fence involves willful disregard of reality, and that can't be good for a parent-child relationship. Also I put DS into situations that would have been fine for a ND kid, (Daycare with agemates) but let him to believe that the world was full of 'Babies.'

But yes, I totally understand wanting to be able to 'forget' gifted. ((wink))

I would say that as long as 'Character' is your first focus, and 'Gifted' is a servant of 'character' you'll be fine.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

LOL! But what if he wants to study Bariatric Zoology ? (animal obesity).

Dottie, I hear you loud and clear. DS6 is in 2nd grade and got 88% on their own 3rd grade level testing (they require 90% to accelerate - to 3rd). They say this is "survey" testing rather than mastery testing. *sigh* I just don't know eduspeak. He skipped 1st math and I'm not seeing any gaps at all.

How can I get the teacher to understand?? Any suggestions for brief articles that she might get? When I talk about LOG, she puts me the same category of parent that she has to convince aren't that much smarter than the other kids.

Jool, I'd say relax. You are doing the right thing, but it doesn't mean that it will work out everytime you try. Of course we parents all want to make sure that our kids are in an ideal environment, but kids are resilient, if once in a while things don't work out exactly the way we like, chances are kids and parents will be able to cope.

I say this out of my own experience. My DS8 had a terrible year in last year. He was bored silly during math--and he had no weak areas whatsoever--yet the teacher refused to give him any challenge. We talked with the teacher a few times. The answer that we got was "well I know your son is smart but there are many smart kids in my room, some smarter than your son, and none of THEM is bored with my teaching". We didn't fight, because for various reasons we weren't ready to switch DS to a different room or a different school in case that our relationship with the teacher went completely sour. Instead we helped him find interesting material to work on at home, and we made sure that he had enough intellectual stimulation with his extracurricular activities.

This year the new teacher immediately saw that DS's math ability is way ahead of other kids in the classroom, and she gave DS advanced material from the very beginning of the school year and DS works on it at his own pace--as soon as he finishes one level he gets the next level. DS's enthusiasm for math is completely restored.

So what I'm saying is that we should definitely try to arrange the ideal situation for our kids. But we should not put too much pressure on ourselves. If for part of the time in school the kid is not fully challenged it's probably OK. With different teachers each year, things will go better or worse. We can use other means to satisfy our kids' need when things at school don't go so well. So, enjoy the challenge!

I don't want to hijack the topic so we can move this to a new thread if need be.

G3 wrote:
I think it depends on the degree of boredom which of course depends on the kid. As we discussed in another thread, kids experience boredom differently and it's not always related to IQ.

What part of the day is boring? Just one subject? How many years has it been? My son *suffered* for 3years. I see the damage that was done. Do I know w/ 100% certainty that being under-challenged caused it or is it just personality developing? Nope but all I know is I sent an energetic, loved to learn, highly focused kid and when I pulled him out of 3rd grade he is unfocused, no mental stamina, low energy and that bright spark is gone. I do see it returning but it's been a tough several months.


Back on topic: on the subjects of workbooks. I think people get bent out of shape about workbooks. They picture a parent spending HOURS/day with the kid. I had workbooks around the house and if we happened to pick one up for 5min we did. DS liked the "what's wrong with this picture" type books, mazes, connect the dots but we also did tons of play-doh, were outdoors all day spring, fall, half of summer where we did tons of nature study. It's all about balance.

A great curriculum for prekers is FIAR. it's a list of quality books and it gives geography, science, math, social studies, relationships, history etc to point out while reading the book. Things like notice the shadows in the books and figure out where the sun would be located. Many of the books have themes such perseverance, loyalty, stewardship.

I completely agree, Dazey.

I know for a fact that within HOURS of entering a positively intelligence-insulting 1st grade class (where MG girls who had never so much as breathed loudly before were missing recess because of boredom-related bad behavior!), my son's whole personality changed. Changed! Drastically!

He reverted back to his usual sunny self within a day or two of being out of that environment, but he was only in it for a few weeks. I shudder to think about all the harm that "a little bit of boredom" can do to a kid like this!

Granted, this was a pretty extreme situation: an HG+ kid in a class that was really being taught as a remedial class with GOBS of repetition, and there was no differentiated work of any sort. Of course I recognize that there are degrees of boredom, and we had pretty nearly the worst case scenario. Even so, I really do think that a kid who is acting out because of boredom is absolutley crying out for help. (And many kids NOT acting out but who are bored are in danger, too. Perhaps even *more* so in their own way.)

Truly, I don't think you can let it go in anything but the most minor of cases of boredom in school. I think real damage is done: to personality, to self-concept ("I'm always in trouble so I'm a bad kid..."), to ability to accept less than perfection (or more than underachieving), to the child's whole understanding of what school is and why s/he is there at all, and to his/her feelings about parents and teachers and communicating with them or trusting them.

I really think there's an abusive sort of thing going on in many of these situations. We wouldn't say, "Oh, that kid didn't eat enough again today. Well, he's just a little hungry. He needs to learn to accept hunger. It's a part of life." For GT kids, learning is like food. It's not a want, it's a NEED! The responsible adults must see to it that that need is met. Period.

Certainly there are levels of boredom. 15 minutes here or there isn't the end of the world. But if more than just a little of the day is boredom, I really think damage is being done to some degree. The greater the level and amount of boredom, the worse the damage.

I'm sorry to soapbox, but I feel very, very strongly about this.

Here is another take on boredom from http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/03/09/the_joy_of_boredom/?page=1



I wouldn't argue that we are doing our kids a favor by subjecting them to long hours of boredom, but I think there is a middle ground we should be shooting for. I do want my son to be able to tolerate a certain amound of boredom. I do want him to learn how to have a rich inner life and not count on the world to entertain him 24/7. I do want him to appreciate that life is about more than being productive and entertained. I worry that in our high tech, high stimulus, busy world that there is a genuine risk that a child will never have a chance to learn to genuinely entertain himself in his own mind.

I know, Kriston, that you are going to disagree with me on this because we have argued this point before. So let me just say that I think it's right and good to try to get a child into a situation where they are learning and being challenged for as much of the school day as possible and that a genuinely bored kid needs a change of situation. I just don't live in fear of being bored and I don't want my child to be either. If we panic every time a child is bored, I think we send the wrong signals about what their lives ought to be like.

I totally agree (indeed, it is these concerns that gets my-panties-in-a-wad about my own DS6's situation). If the kid is completely bored, they aren't learning anything about the topic per se, but they are still learning. They are learning that teachers are stupid [um..from a 6 year old perspective], school is a waste of time, and they just should get in line and shush up. They are actively NOT learning things too. They are not learning to think, they are not learning to problem solve, and they are not learning respect.

Katelyn, it sounds as though you're doing exactly what you should be doing - providing enough challenge and stimuli for your DD. So forget the 'gifted' tag - it's all a huge continuum anyway, and every single one of us has 'asynchronous development' - i.e. some things are ahead of others in our development. So keep on going what you're doing - just enough to challenge her, yet not frustrate her. She'll let you know!!

And Jool: I think the big question is, is your SON bored or unhappy? That's when you know you DO need to go to bat for him.(And do remember that if you don't go to bat for your child, who wil??) Otherwise, if your child is happy, I agree with the others above that you can take a rest and chill out

Katelyn, I think I may have said this in my prior post but I'll say it again lol, just find a balance. Show your child what you are passionate about, whatever it is (well as long as it's legal lol). Play ball, play on the swings, make music together, read lots, lots of nature study, and occasionally pull out those workbooks lol.

The boredom discussion usually splits two ways b/c half is talking about one thing and the other half something entirely different. And Acs, I realize you're in the camp w/ Kriston and I, I'm talking about folks in general I've spoken about. What Kriston and I mentioned is not a casual state of boredom. My son is bored at home quite often. He'll lay around doing nothing, thinking, and will eventually go off and find something to do. Sometimes he asks me for recommendations and I'll give some which he is free to accept or ignore. I in no way feel like the boy needs to be entertained 24/7.

the boredom we are talking about, and I think Kriston, we need to change our word b/c I've had this conversation sooo many times that I think the word gets in the way, is the kind of mind-numbing boredom that actually prevents learning. When your child comes home and says, "What's the purpose of school? I thought school was a place to learn something?" or when you ask DC what he would like the teacher to do to help him, he responds, "Nothing. The other kids need to learn this stuff and it wouldn't be fair to them if the teacher did something different for me." So this child had accepted his fate. This child would drag his feet walking to the bus every morning and wouldn't even look me in the face. THis child had a breakdown at the door as the bus came down the street crying and screaming "Mommy I just can't take it anymore, I just can't. the day is soooo long. I just can't take it anymore." So, yes I don't think "boredom" is the right word for it and does it a dis-service. Perhaps undernourished to go w/ Kriston's analogy?

I've even gotten from many people "Well learning is not supposed to be fun." huh? or "School is not supposed to be fun." or "School is work."

All of this really boils down to personality. You can have a highly MG (not HG) kid like mine who is climbing the walls w/ under-nourishment. WHereas, you can have a PG+ kid, completely content to doodle all day, sneak books into class, challenge himself by making up his own math word problems and working them in his head and is excited by the social opportunities school affords. It's a difference in personality.

I do think some people are better at living inside their head than others. I love to daydream when bored and have to be careful not to do it when driving. I was counseled to teach DS to daydream. I did my best. I really tried to teach this. His response was "I can't do that in class. I'm supposed to listen to everything the teacher says." I think he had gotten in trouble in K from daydreaming and then would miss some direction or question b/c at that time, he was the kid making up math word problems in his head and trying to answer them. I know b/c he'd tell me about the problem but he wasn't sure he had the right answer. But I thought the teacher was giving those problems and asked the teacher about it. Of course the teacher wasn't asking those kinds of questions of 5yr olds. Turns out it was all in my son's head, after furthering questioning. He learned that that was bad and turned that off completely. Now he can't rely on that as a tool. Sigh..... he's a weird kid.


So I'll end this long diatribe w/ as parents we have to decipher what "boring" means. For my son boring is for things that are both too easy and too hard or simply disinteresting. We're working on expanding his vocabulary so he can describe his feelings better.

Actually, I love it when people say something like this, Dazey, since I agree with this completely.

My next comment after agreeing with them, however, is to ask "So why is my kid not allowed to work?!" I'm not asking for fun. I'm asking for work! Preferably hard work!

I think you're totally right, Dazey, about two different kinds of boredom. Furthermore, I don't think "lazing" as you're discussing, acs, is what school is for. If that's what kids are doing there, then I want mine at home for it! I think confusing work and healthy "lazing" at school is teaching very bad habits to a child.

Yes but for some kids hard work is fun! But I do get your point and I've used that myself.

The other comment I got was (and this was from DH to DS) "well you'll have fun and learn something in AP classes in High school." I about died at that statement. He's in 1st grade for goodness sake. Poor DS replied, "That's a very long time from now," nearly in tears.

Sure, but I think in that particular argument, Dazey, whether work is fun or not is NOT the point you want to make. Know your audience, you know?

Yes it definitely depends on the audience, which way you go. I just lumped all those statements into one. The people I was speaking to, are equating *work* with *boring* and *not fun.* they are probably thinking of filing papers and such.

Someone might ask "what does your son say about school?" or they might ask him and he'll say "School is boring." But it's not someone I want to get into a whole needs more challenging work, knew that 2yrs ago, gifted blah blah blah conversation. So I usually go the route of differences in personality and interests which is generally less threatening ie son likes science and history which is not a focus of K-2 etc.

Yes! Some of my best memories and, I think creative growth, are from hanging around on the weekends and summer afternoons with friends bored out of our skull, bored with our toys, no structured activities. Out of that lull time, we started a "3 street Newsletter" publication, wrote plays and puppet shows, etc. (Luckily, with caller ID, my children won't get creative with the telephone like we did... ).

However, I'm pretty certain that no creative growth came out of having to sit through lessons where I already knew the material. If anything, that was stunting. I believe boredom is fine *if* you're given the freedom to go where your mind wants, KWIM?

Ok Jool, you said in very succintly, what I was trying to say in my long winded, convoluted post. Perhaps I'll attempt to condense it. You pointed out the two very different situations of *boredom* to which I referred.

No, please don't change a thing, Dazey! I appreciate what you wrote! Sometimes the journey is more important than the destination, you know?

LOL too late!

I am a math teacher. Estimation and measurement are important topics now. Math is no longer just addition, subtraction, multiplication... These are also tough topics that have to be developed. They usually go hand-in-hand. There is so much estimation in the workforce today - especially in computer and engineering jobs.

These are very important for science also. I am not very good at measurement - judging it. My daughter is excellent. She will even speak in metrics. I never properly developed these and had a difficult time estimating space in my computer analyzing career.

Help him by asking him how many yards "whatever" is or how many ounces or liters a drink is. Point this out as often as you can - such as a two-liter or 16-ounce container. I was better at numbers (algebra) and this hurt me in science and geometry.

What you wrote made complete sense Dazey! I love that we can elaborate on this board and bring in details and examples of our DC's situations. Sorry, I hope it didn't seem like I was condensing what you were saying... In looking back at my post, I can see how my last paragraph could have appeared that way... My post was about my experience as a child - writing about my memories helps me with thinking about the right thing to do for my kids. I appreciate that I can do that on this board .

OH no no don't take it that way....I didn't take it that you were condensing my post, not at all lol. But on those rare moments I do have time to put 2 thoughts together, I can long winded. Especially when it comes to the topic of boredom b/c I've had to defend myself SOOOOOOOOOO many times on that subject...I guess it's a sore point lol.

Dazey, Yes, I do agree with yo--mostly. I think you are right that we are talking about different kinds of boredom and that we need better terms. I guess what I feel like I'm hearing a delineation that if the boredom that happens at home (where we are teaching our kids to entertain themselves and explore) it's a "good" kind and if they are bored at school it is the "bad" kind. I just think that that is too coarse a distinction. I don't think that if fair to the school and I worry that it sends the wrong message to the kids--that it is not their responsilbity to address their boredom. The child has a responsibility to address their boredom as well. I think DS does get a lot out of being bored at school. I asked him last night how he gets through repetitive lessons and he came up with a list of about 10 things he does that indicate to me that he his learning useful skills (social, emotional, advocacy, maturational, and intellectual). In no way is he learning to shut down, so I really feel like his school boredom is a good thing.

But I have not taken an approach that he should just suffer and be bored. I have coached him a lot on how to get to the point where boredom is beneficial. And we have both advocated for him a lot and we have several accomdations in place. So you are right, Dazey, I think we are in basically the same ballpark. And if we had done these things and I saw my kid shutting down, I would definitely act.

I have a hard time when I feel like we lose the middle ground in these discussions and I tend to like to bring us back to the middle when I see the discussion drifting too far to the extremes! So now we have to address the vocabulary. How do we distinguish between our healthy boredom and our soul-crushing boredom?

Yes I get into a conversation with someone that only lives on the extremes and it drives me insane lol.

I think addressing *boredom* here on this board is very different than addressing boredom with others. I know of parents with struggling kids who complain that school is boring. I can imagine sitting in on a Quantum mechanics class that's at a very speedy pace, I'd probably get bored after awhile followed by frustration.

I wish my son had had it w/in himself to do what he needed to do to make it through the day. He just didn't. But there was also NO accommodations made for him. And from a couple of sources (one from within the school) that nothing was going to happen for him. I saw no point in fighting and it's just not me anyhow.

As I said, it's highly kid dependent. My kid totally shut down and I saw no benefit in having him deal w/ boredom AS he perceived it.

SHould we ask Mark to split this thread into two threads?

Yes I think estimation is important. Singapore math is heavily into estimation. For a problem like 23x59, it wants the kids to do 20x60 first, then work out the problem. I think it helps to know the ballpark your answer should be in.

As well as estimating how much a pint is or 3L etc. Some things I have no idea about like how much does an elephant way anyhow?

Yes I agree in his situation, putting up with a little boredom is fine. That's why I made my post about little vs a lot. Only you can decide where that line is drawn and it highly depends on the kid. Sorry for going off on my HUGE tangent.

Boredom is a huge sore spot for me. I've read "Gifted kids don't get bored." And I've been told "WHy can't he amuse himself in his head, if he's so smart?" "What's wrong with your child b/c my child knows all that stuff already and he's perfectly happy." or some variation of those. "Well he has many years of boring school work to get through so he might as well get used to it now." and "Well you make things too exciting at home doing chemistry and physics. You need to make home so boring that school looks inviting."

I was left w/ "what is wrong with my child?" Why can't he make it in this environment? People move from miles away for this district blah blah blah.

And I believed a lot of it. I just wish when my son was in K, someone would have told me these things and he wouldn't have had to suffer. But I thought it would be just for that year and bought into he has to learn to deal with it. 1st was better, but as soon as the teacher started winding down in MARCH b/c she had the high kids and they finished the material for the year, he started complaining. He is just like I am I think. He requires lots of data input coming in ... I'm always reading something, or thinking about something or researching something. It's the scientist in me. WHen I was in science, I'd have stacks of journals to read through, assimilate into current knowledge, determine who it affected the project I was working on, put it together in a presentation, present it, answer questions then on to the next thing to research. When I left science to be home w/ my baby, I thought I would go insane from not having intellectual stimulation. I have gotten used to it so much so that the thought of doing that level of mental work frightens me. And sadly, that's what happened to my son in just 3 years.

from gratified3:

This is were I am at right now. I just wonder if I never came up with the label how different things would be. And then my fear of hothousing is there so I really find myself holding her back. She learned everything from play and what you described is my DD in a nut shell. She goes to the playground all the time, weather permitting. She plays with play doh and through that adds and subtracts as she plays. Talks about colors and shapes, etc. while playing with the play doh. Baking has been a big part of her life and she learned important math out of that. This morning she was all about musical instruments and played the piano for a while and pulled out her guitar which freaks me out. I can take the same guitar and it sounds like tar but she uses it a lot like the movie August Rush where he got hold of the guitar and explored it. Hitting it in certain areas to hear the notes and she already understands the keys and how turning them tunes the guitar and will work on it forever. Her dad plays guitar and his dad played guitar so I am sure it runs in the family. But even my DH admits that her approach to it all is weird but very interesting. So again ... she discovers everything through playing so bringing in workbooks for her to do just feels like I am a pushy mom. I think I decided the best thing to do is leave them on the shelf and wait until she is in preschool and see if she makes that connection.

So I question if I didn't know the term gifted and just kept with her cues would she be even more advanced now? I find myself holding her back partly b/c I don't want her to be bored in kindergarten. But even before knowing she was gifted she was equal to a first grader and some second grade curriculum so really how much can I hold her back when she discovers everything on her own? I have also noticed (big sigh) that her cognitive abilities are even more advanced in the last few weeks. We usually get the giggles from visual reference but now she gets the verbal jokes. She just gets a lot more then she used to and now her complex sentences which were already complex by the time she was 18 months are even more complex. If she was at a 6 -7 yr old in verbal before I have no idea what she is at now. So conversations around her gets interesting to say the least.

Good point Dazey. That's another aspect of "boredom" in school that I've thought could be detrimental to my children. I like to think of mental effort as a habit, just like physical exercise. Yes, our kids have a drive to be mentally active but that drive sometimes needs a kick start and needs to be focused on learning in a way they might not necessarily do on their own. It takes more effort on the school's part to give our kids that kick start than the average child. The reductionist in me sees it like this: If the average child in the class is learning new material, say, 50% of the time, they get more mental stimulation than my DS who is learning new material, say, 10% of the time. (Made up numbers). In a public school, doesn't my child have a right to get just as much mental stimulation as the next child? I pay taxes, so I feel my kid has a right to as much new learning as the next kid. In reality, I know that may be too much to expect, but that way of thinking about it helps me justify the fight to get more challenge for DS. What I'm struggling with is: DS will probably never get his fair share of challenge in math in PS - I can push to make it better, though. I feel that at some point, we do have to settle for "good enough". I just don't know what that is yet.

Thinks, I missed your post. DS6 is not unhappy. He says he doesn't learn anything new in math, but he also doesn't spontaneously complain about it. It actually scares me a little when he's so easily content with not learning. That's why we pushed for a skip last year. He wasn't seeing school as a place to learn . This year he is learning in writing and spelling. He still loves to read, so I'm not so concerned that he's reading materials below his ability. He reads voraciously on his own anyhow. My thinking now is: ride out the rest of the year and consider subject acceleration in math for next year. This will be no easy task - apparently this school has never subject accelerated any student. Ever.

G3: last year, my son WAS learning that he was a bad kid. He was. He told me that's what he was learning because of all the recesses he missed and how angry and frustrated he felt about school. And he's SOOOOO not a bad kid! My comment was about our situation and trying to define what I mean when talking about boredom, not something I was putting on you.

But I DO think it is vital to recognize that often kids don't tell us those things even if they feel them. I think it's important to say that even if a child is NOT acting out, is NOT expressing that small feeling (which is SUCH a great way of expressing it!), there may be a serious problem.

Apparently not what's up in your child's case, so probably a tangent that Dazey and I went off on. Sorry! But I can't hear "bored and acting out" and hear someone ask "does that matter?" and not make the point for general consumption that I feel VERY strongly that's a time to at least sit up and take notice. Too many people ignore it. Not you, but too many people. I'm just never going to let that go past, I'm afraid...

I'm totally with Dazey there: boredom for GT kids is huge sore spot for me. I think *much* damage is done by boredom and often goes unrecognized.

I definitely don't think it's a given that even all the parents who find their way here will take action in a damaging situation. I know a surprisingly large number of parents--double digits!--whose biggest regret about their GT kids is that they didn't take action sooner to prevent damage being done by boredom. They didn't trust themselves, and they kick themselves now. So when the topic of boredom and damage comes up, expect me to soapbox!

You have all been warned!

I'm fine with you being on your soapbox and encouraging parents to look for signs of boredom and address them as appropriate. Where I have issues is when you suggest that those of us who do allow our children to be bored for more than 15 minutes a day are somehow subjecting our children to abuse. I think you can be on your soapbox but still use language that is less critical of those of us who made other decisions. I know that you respect me and my parenting and I respect your decisions as well, so this isn't a personal issue at all. But when you get on your soapbox, I think sometimes you get a bit carried away. I would just like to see you moderate your rhetoric a bit. Is that fair?

I really don't think Kriston is trying to push parents into anything. I just think she and her son had such a bad experience with school and it is because of this her views are the way they are. It really comes down to individual children and how they deal with the boredom. Boredom for most of the day might not cause a child to act out but still could cause other issues such as losing the love of learning. We as parents know our children the best. I just see Kriston saying watch for the signs and if you are feeling uncomfortable trust your instincts because there could be damage if the child is left in that situation. But I do agree that we are not going to find the perfect solution for our HG+ kids and they will need to learn how to deal with some boredom. I know when my daughter starts public school I suspect she will be bored but if this causes her to change to the point that she isn't my happy, inquisitive child then I will be working the chain for solutions or pulling her out.

acs:

I apologize for putting things in a way that you see as an attack on your choices. I hope you know me well enough to know that was NEVER my intention.

I respect you deeply. I respect your choices. I respect that we are all different. I certainly don't think you abuse your child and NEVER intended to imply that!

OTOH, I do think extended periods of boredom were the equivalent of abuse for my child, and I do not think that he is alone. I will qualify what I said for clarity and accuracy, but I do stand by it. It is my take on my experience. It is valid.

You think I get carried away; I think too many people think boredom is no big deal.

I do apologize if I said anything that hurt you in any way though. You know that I am your biggest fan! And I have a deep and abiding belief that you know your child best. I would never dream of second-guessing your choices. Never!

BTW, I also didn't mean that 15 minutes is some magic threshold. I don't want that to become a strawman here in the discussion. I have no idea for any given kid how much is too much. It varies, of course, depending on the child and all sort of other factors.

I just wanted to make that very clear.

Thanks, Kriston

My worry isn't about me, now with a happy 13 year old--I don't second guess myself much about our schooling choices anymore. But if I had read what you had written way back when DS was 5, knowing that avoiding boredom and repitition in public school is impossible, I could have really panicked and might have even pulled him out of what has turned out to be a great school situation for him. I know that there are a lot of new folks and folks with younger kids on the board and I want them to have both sides. I know you want that too. I think your clarified response sets a nice tone! Thanks again.

I'm not sure that boredom itself is the problem. I let my kids be "bored" at home but they are free to amuse themselves when they choose to. I think the problem is how some teachers handle downtime for kids who are ahead. Are these students allowed to choose an interesting/new and/or constructive activity or are they required to do more busywork?

I didn't intend to extrapolate to anyone's situation ... I mentioned that you have to determine what exactly the kids means by *bored* b/c it can mean very different things and that their are different levels of boredom some of which are not OK. I just wanted to share what happened to my son completely acknowledging that he is a very weird kid and not even HG. I wished someone had told me the damaging effects of *boredom.* And those comments weren't from the school but other parents and several were parents of GT kids. While acknowledging my son is odd, I doubt he's alone so I wanted to share our story as a "watch out for this," b/c no one ever spoke to me about love of learning, mental stamina being affected by under-nourishment.

Honestly, if we are all being honest with ourselves we can all be guilty of the same thing. Usually when we are talking about personal issues that we feel strongly about:


I think what we can all learn from this as frequent posters is that what may be a good course of action for one child is not necessarily appropriate for another child for many different reasons.

And I think anyone here searching for their *way* in terms of educational planning is aware that we are a diverse group of people with different experiences and different success story.

I would hazard a guess that most adults searching for info here can take what's relevant to them and also *take* what's not KWIM?

I've come a LONG, LONG way in the search for what is right for my children over the last year or so. I've benefitted at least as much or more from stories that I read and say: "That's just not my child, my family.

So to anyone reading my posts in the past or the future: If you read anything I post that sounds like horse puckey, please feel free to laugh! In fact, go ahead and say: "That silly Neato doesn't know what she's talking about". But, please, please, don't ever say that I'm potentially harming someone because I've had a different experience with my child and I'm caring enough to share it. None of us here are experts reigning down on the newbies....."You are a bad parent if you do not do as I do......."

We all know this, right? ((big sigh))

Katylynn's Mom: It sounds like you're doing everything just right for your DD!!!! I held my son back in things he was asking for b/c I didn't want him to be bored in K. He was bored anyway. I have tried to go more laterally and do more nature studies, chemistry and physics...but even this will catch up to us eventually. When they have that thirst to learn, it's hard to hold them back.

I think those of us who have been around for a while and know each other understand what you are saying and know that we are mosly all talking about our own kid and not trying to overgeneralize. But people who just stop in and read a thread or two may not appreciate the long term relationships and easy chatter of us regulars.

So I just think that, with the newbies and the brief visitors in mind, it would be nice if we could all remember to use a liberal dosage of "for me" "for my child" "in our experience" and "this probaby won't apply to everyone" etc. We all can get carried away on topics we care about but if you look at the number of hits each of these threads gets, I think it good to remind ourselves that what we are writing is being read far and wide, not just by our friends. Just a reality check....

Agreed. I wasn't suggesting any solution.

I said: So I'll end this long diatribe w/ as parents we have to decipher what "boring" means. For my son boring is for things that are both too easy and too hard or simply disinteresting. We're working on expanding his vocabulary so he can describe his feelings better.

And this: What Kriston and I mentioned is not a casual state of boredom.

You wrote: What's the worst that can happen if a kid is bored for a while? I don't see that leading to catastrophic consequences or permanent damage.

This is what I heard from everyone. Well, after 3 years it did prove catastrophic for my son. I was simply telling his story w/out any intent to suggest what you or anyone else should do for their child outside of determining exactly what the child means by *bored.*


that's what I get for my long winded post! Can I have a do over and delete the entire post?

dottie wrote:


Interesting! I felt that by saying my son was bored, that others felt uneasy/threatened b/c if my son was bored, then it meant their kid wasn't as smart (didn't know he was gifted back then) since their kid wasn't bored. AGain boils down to personality that I spoke of BUT also very, different schools! Or even very different teachers within the same school! Or even very different schools in the same district. The other K-2 school in our district will subject accelerate and send a kid to a higher grade but our school will not do it. The Principal's philosophy was "we don't challenge our kids." Yep, she said that. She also said, "We don't do science b/c we have too many holidays to celebrate and our school is too large." the other K-2 school in our district does more science. So schools can vary greatly even w/in the same district!

And I know of schools were my son would totally be challenged in the regular classroom. Those are dynamic, exciting schools where love of learning is important! I would never presume to tell anyone their child couldn't make it in a public school! I can't believe people were saying that to you!

This really hit the nail on the head of the issue for me. I'll be asking a modified version of that question at future school meetings.

I've been thinking about DD6's "I daydream most of the time in school" comment and following this discussion with great interest. I appreciate having all the different views to consider.

Yes, I'm reading the book "The Trouble with Boys" which is an interesting read about the mismatch of the typical classroom w/ the typical boy. I don't doubt this is some of my son's issues. Too many worksheets and not enough hands on exploration.

Yes, My DS is a well-rounded learner, but his preferred mode of input is still auditory. This, I think, has made his school experience a much better fit. My kinesthetic friends struggled more even though they were very bright.

On the issue of, "if your kid is doing well in public school maybe he isn't that gifted", I have heard that from several directions. I have definitely heard it on boards, but it is also implied in Ruf's book and on Hoagies, both of which I highly respect. Basically, they say, HG+ kids tend to not do well in public school. So, the reader of such a comment is left to wonder, "if my kid is doing well in public school, then perhaps he isn't HG+?"

Thanks ACS ... I have to admit my first real meltdown in regards to gifted and schooling was reading Ruf's book with comments on Level 4 and 5 kids tend not to do well in public schools. Here was my whole plan thrown back in my face and me freaking out. So hearing you and Dottie say: Yes it is possible and my child is proof makes me feel a little better.

And schools (public and private) will lead you to believe that if your child is not doing well in school, he isn't HG+.

As parents, our judgment about how GT our kids are is always being questioned--by others and by ourselves. I'm so glad that there is a forum like this where we can discuss these issues!

DS never spontaneously complains of boredom. He could entertain himself for hours with a shoestring. The red flags I saw in him in K were much more subtle than overt unhappiness. It was comments like "I don't learn anything in school" and contentment with review of stuff he knew several years before and perfectionism that got me concerned. That's why I love the "extreme" stories on this forum. If I didn't hear very sad stories about underchallenged kids who burned out I probably wouldn't have even thought of gradeskipping a happy child. Likewise, the stories on the other extreme about HG+ kids doing well in PS with not much intervention help me to not panic when the situation isn't perfect. I want to hear stories about A, Z, and everything in between...

Dottie wrote:

How did those ND boys react to boredom? I talked to parents whose kid wasn't exactly thrilled w/ school and complained of boredom, but they liked going to school for recess and PE and specials. My kid was the only one w/ daily stomach aches, nausous, headaches, sobbing at night before bed about going to school the next day etc. From what I"ve read, boys tend to tune out but I've not seen mention of the physical and emotional symptoms that my son experienced.

My DS6 is having the same physical symptoms about public school this year. He hates going. The work is too easy and even lunch, recess and specials are not going well since those are the times of the day when he has the worst behavior. I wish we could make the public school system work--it'd be so much cheaper.

Have no fear Jool, I will always be around to share our sad public school story--well at least until he starts private GT school in the fall.

I would say from my own experience and what I've seen in my DS- if you have a child who is doing well in public school, perhaps he/she has learned what ND looks like and replicates it well!

Not all kids can or will be able to make that work either emotionally or socially. And certainly not for a long period of time. For me personally, I realized that in 7th grade it wasn't cool to be smart and decided to start skipping a certain number of math problems on the test. I could get a 93%, still not screw up my grades and yet not be so "perfect".

CAMom, your story reminds me of something my DS said the other day about a boy in his class. He's in the GT pullout with DS and is a teacher's pet-type - a model for behavior. I'm not sure of his LOG, but with heterogenous grouping, even MG kids have to do lots of unncessary review. Anyhow, this boy apparently told DS that he makes mistakes on purpose so that he "doesn't have to skip a grade" like my DS. I'm in no position to judge his parents. But I can't help feeling like someone should be advocating for him. Perhaps if he were acting out, he would be in better shape in a way. I wonder if a kid like this is just at much at risk for underachievement than the clearly unhappy kid.

Hmmm. I was skipped and hated it because it was socially disruptive. I went from feeling like I could be myself in my old class to needing to hide who I was because the smart kids in my new class resented me. So I hid.

DS, OTOH, was not skipped and has never hidden his abilities from anyone. He is in 7th in an ordinary Public School and is thriving and happy, engaged and learning. You'll have to take my word for this, of course, but if you met him, I am sure that you would have no doubts about his love of life and learning.

Which is all just to say that you really can't make generalities about our kids. There are too many variables. Not that we can't learn from each others' stories, of course.

I agree, you really have to look at the specific situation. I was skipped (from 6th to 8th grade) and went from hiding and being desperately lonely to finally feeling like I wasn't an alien from another planet and having a couple of friends. It was one of the best things my parents ever did for me.

I think you are misunderstanding my points, G3. Suffice it to say that I have no opinion whatsoever on your child's boredom as a specific case. I don't know your child. When I said "you" I intended it in the generic sense. In context of my post, it comes after my DS's story, so I thought the generic was understood. My mistake, and I'm sorry for the confusion.

You and I have had this same misunderstanding in the past, so please assume in future that I am NOT making statements about you personally. It's just not something I will ever do. You have my word. I use the word "you" in the generic sense a lot. I will make a concerted effort not to do so in response to your posts. But if I slip, please point it out to me and I will edit the word out to avoid confusion. I will never comment specifically on how you are raising your children. I understand--and have understood for a long while now--that such comments are not welcome from me.

I do not want such small things to distract, however.

My point throughout this discussion has been very single-minded and clear: boredom can cause real harm. Not that it is harming your child, or his, or hers over there. I don't know that. And not that it harms every child. I never said anything of the sort because I don't know every child.

But statements like the one that started this discussion, the same one Dazey noted:


This I refute, and I refute it in the strongest terms possible. I DO see it leading to catastrophic consequences and permanent damage in *some* cases. Most definitely! This isn't a statement about your child--though perhaps you intended it to be and that's the root of the problem?--this is a generalization about all kids. This general statement is what I was taking issue with.

You do not see this issue as I do. Fair enough. But none of that is about my judging you or your choices about your child. I am commenting on a blanket statement about boredom, not about you or your choices. That is all I was ever intending to comment on.

Dottie, that's a really good point.

Acs, I'm so glad you child is happy at school, that's wonderful, he's so fortunate.

Like, Dottie's son, our children had to have a radical change in order to make their educational experience realistic for how quickly they learn.

Both girls have totally different personalities. In fact, our DYS has such amazing attentionial focus and is so well balanced she was supposed to be the one that could withstand repetition and rote, "boring" tasks. And she did, however, this in itself caused some extreme damage to her that we are now having to unravel.

Luckily, children, are so resilient and bounce back so quickly! I'm so lucky to have such amazing children, they are both doing great now!

And yes, thank you acs for reitering what I had just said about all kids being different. Which, by the way, was in response to your taking to task another forum member for relating their own experiences which just happened to be different from your situation.

I push for my child to have challenge because I had a very similar experience as Dottie. I almost failed the second year of university, mostly from having absolutely no study skills. I feel strongly that out of all the things that school is supposed to teach children, that is one of the biggest survival lessons for both university and for a work environment.

The problem is that a Gifted child is much less likely to need to learn these skills at a normal school. I try to make sure my sons are challenged enough that they have to pick up part of the study skills, part of the resiliency against failing that most children get, and some of the confidence in their abilities that comes from hard work as opposed to just putting their faith in their intelligence.

So, yes, I think boredom can be detrimental to Gifted kids.

If you believe this book I'm reading on boys, some of this is due to a mismatch between the way schools/classes are run and boys personality. I know the teacher that DS had a good year with, was thought to be a good boy teacher. She had a loud voice, was constantly moving and had her class constantly moving. For baseball math, she'd actually move all the tables around and make bases and the kids ran around the bases doing math problems. In my son's 2nd grade class, the teacher was sooooo calm and steady with a very low voice, I'd find it hard to keep my concentration all day. Plus the classrooms are open so you can hear all the noise from the neighboring class rooms.

I also read in one of my gifted books that kids w/ IQ120 can be bored and under-nourished in a public school. It all depends on the level of the school. I have another friend where the majority of the kids are 120-135 and their curriculum reflects it, those are considered the ND kids.

According to someone in the know, my son's school isn't big on critical thinking. The kids in 5th grade thought slaves were invited here. Not just a few kids either. She said the level of critical thinking is just not what it needed to be for my son.

I found with my son, he was happy in math, he was happy overall. So it's not like he needed everything fixed, just that one thing. This is probably true about your son. He is enjoying a regular public school but with radical acceleration, just means his most important needs are being met. I don't think everything needs to be perfect for these kids, just the important things.

'Neato, this is what I was trying to get at with my original post. I don't think I used the right words in the title to get at the 'meat' of what my concerns were. I've been an inconsistent poster and I think I missed your DD's full story, so I'll do a search because I would love to read about her.

So now that I've finally clarified my thinking ... With my DS there are no real clear-cut red flags like unhappiness or acting out or even complaints of "boredom". Yet he's doing stuff in math that he knew how to do at age 4. Now obviously he's learning *something* since he hasn't had formal math instruction outisde of school and he does has a relative weakness in geometry - although the teacher's description of "struggling" was a little much considering he got a perfect score the end of unit test once he was taught.

I *know* there's no clear-cut answer for what is a good-enough situation. And I think we're preaching to the choir when we say every kid is different, can't generalize, etc. But I hope that doesn't discourage people from giving any strong opinions or sharing their extreme stories without having to worry about making someone question their own choices. For the record, when I ask for advice, I don't mind very strong opinions. I'm a big girl - I end up going with my gut feeling anyway. But my gut is stronger when I'm given the spectrum of opinions. Pontificate away! Get on soapboxes! It's all good . I've never gotten the feeling that anyone is judging another's parenting by being opinionated.

Oh Dottie, I wasn't advocating that position certainly! I would have preferred to be your DS in school, not the me who learned to be lazy and not work hard! But my parents didn't know any better and were certain that not upsetting the apple cart was the best mode.

I only meant it to say that often, HG+ kids are very perceptive. They know what they're "supposed" to look like and some can blend. It doesn't make them happy, it just makes them camouflaged.

Jool, I've been meaning to post what's going on with my girls and haven't had a chance. I also wanted to make sure it was working the way I thought it was before I posted what I consider a successful advocation story with a very happy ending!

Perfectionist much?!?!?

I tell you what, I'll make time later this evening to post the whole kit and caboodle, so look out for it.

BTW, it took me almost two years of soul searching and investigating and trying things to find what I consider a very happy solution for the girls.

It doesn't always come easily or instantaneously. Keep up what you are doing and continue to proceed with how you know your child to be in mind and you'll find a good place.....

I think you are awesome and I can see that you are processing all this very well.

I feel bad if anyone thought that I was arguing with people sharing stories, since, as far as I am concerned that is the best part of this forum.

This issue I had taken the poster in question to task for was posting general statements about gifted kids and boredom, some of which could have been taken by some as an attack on their well-considered decisions. If she had used the term "my kid" instead of "you" then I would have read happily without being troubled by what she said. She has subsequently rephrased the statement without changing the story and I am quite content.

What I was really hoping was not that people stopped telling stories but that we remember our divers audience and remember this, which I had posted earlier.

My comments about all kids being different were, indeed, meant to be an echo of what you said. They were my attempt to live up to my own request that we make sure we tell our stories without negating those of others.

CFK, could you remind me how old your Level 3 is? Do you see any consequences from not being at his challenge level as time goes on?

Yes CFK! That's why I wrote:

CFK wrote;

Yes my son is like this. I'm trying to work on changing his perception but it has been difficult. If I had two kids like him, I"d give up. My 5yr old is like your other son. He's very easy-going, goes with the flow.

So glad I checked back on this thread to find another gem quote to help me wrap my head around this.

I tried to edit my post but it will no longer let me do so. WHy can't we go back and edit post? What if you put in info that you later decide is too personal and want removed?

I wanted to preface my post with "this is the story of my child. This post in no way insinuates or suggests what you should do for your child or that your child's situation is similar to my child's situation. This is how *my* child reacted to boredom/under-challenge over the course of 3years. I am not implying there is a direct correlation between boredom and IQ, in fact I think there is little correlation. I think it's more about the child's learning style and personality and how that matches the school/teacher."

I think the risk-taking is where our DS's may differ. In a classroom setting, DS doesn't want to stick out. If they say to pick a book from the lower grade levels, he won't even think about exploring the possibility of getting a higher-level book, even when I tell him it's okay to ask. At home, I don't feel there is enough time to challenge his needs in math. I haven't reached the point (yet) where that directed learning in math takes priority over self-exploration. At some point he will need it though.

Well, this isn't entirely accurate...

I meant that I was not speaking about anyone else's child specifically. Not yours, not G3's. But also not just mine.

I was generalizing. I do think that in general, underchallenge/boredom is a major problem for GT kids. Not all GT kids. Not always. Not all forms of boredom. Like any generalization, my point certainly has limits. I think that discussing those limits can be a very productive discussion. But I AM generalizing and not merely speaking about my own child.

I should not have used "you" in the generic sense because it can be confused for specificity that I did not intend. For that single word choice, I have apologized. It was imprecise. But I also would not--could not--use "my child" in place of "you" to make my point. That is not what I intended.

I DO think it is okay to generalize here. Others are absolutely free to disagree with those generalizations, to point out exceptions, to note where an argument falls apart. More power to you! Such debate is good and helpful. I'd like to think that no one here--newbie or no--is going to read anything written here and apply it to their own kids without critical thought.

The fact is that my opinion is a general one about GT kids, and it is one that is important to me. I will express it in general terms.

Hello - we just tried updating some settings so that all users will have access to edit their posts within one month. If anyone has any questions, please send me a private message. Thank you.

Wow - back to the thread I started on how much I love this site.... case in point. Like when they reorganized all the forums and topics.

I almost lost a good friend because of this recently, Dazey, and to be honest, things are still a bit strained. Our DDs are in the same class this year. When we were at a crossroads with DD6 about whether to pull her out of school or ask for acceleration, I shared what was going on. She blew off DDs complaints as typical or being as a result of my questioning her about what she was learning each day in school. The school ended up offering subject acceleration, and I shared with my friend that they did this based on some achievement testing we had done. I thought I was sufficiently vague about the actual score but yet made it clear that everyone involved thought this was what DD6 needed.

A few weeks ago another child in the class was moved out because a parent complained about her not being challenged. It set my friend off. What came out was that she thought we were wrong to have ever gone to the counselor or principal to express concern about DD, that it was just 1st grade and it's supposed to be easy, that I thought my DD was "beyond brilliant," and that I had probably hurt the teacher by my actions. Apparently getting achievement testing was an overreaction because she's my oldest child and put too much emphasis on the fact that she's gifted. All kids should learn the same things in PS, and there shouldn't be special accomodations for anyone. I need to just tell DD to enjoy the fact that school is easy right now.

Clearly I had hurt this friend and annoyed her by sharing our concerns and DD's unhappiness. I had never really wanted to share it with her but I felt I had to let her in on some of it if we were going to pull DD6 from school. And I only shared with her, too, because I believe her kids are GT. Every time we talked about it before the blow up I focused on DD's personality, not her GTness, until the achievement testing came up. It still didn't matter, though, because even after the fact, I think she took my focus on personality to be insincere and believed I was really saying that DD is smarter than everyone in the class. And if I said DD has needs (based on the achievement testing), it's saying her DD doesn't.

So I too wonder if I focus on the "gifted" part of DD too much. I'm sure her teachers probably think so because they don't really understand asynchrony. When I try to explain to the 2nd grade teacher (DD6 goes there twice a day for subject acceleration) that DD6 can't physically write like a 2nd grader but understands everything, she looks a bit like she's frustrated that she has to make a few changes to accomodate her. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but it seems like she thinks DD6 shouldn't be coming to her class if she can't do all the work exactly like the other 2nd graders. Maybe she shouldn't. I can see where "giftedness" could sound like an excuse.

I still don't know exactly what happened to cause my DD to become so unhappy this school year. Could it have been because she picked up on my concern? I don't know. But I do know that my daughter went from being a kid who loved to learn and loved school to a child who begged me to homeschool her so that she could learn something she didn't know. I don't know if "bored" is really the best word to describe what she felt. She simply wasn't learning anything new, and had no academic satisfaction. That seemed to suck the life out of her, and I do think it's probably more related to her personality than to her GTness. Whatever the cause, though, I truly believe it would have been detrimental to have kept her in her 1st grade class without any acceleration.

I think it's perfectly ok to share personal experiences and views. That's how we all learn! (old or new comers). As a relatively new poster, I "filter" the info after reading. U take in u whatever u think will work for you/ child and family.

I can see how some people (friends/ teachers / school etc) will react to the word "bored" being used on a child..... just like the word "gifted".

I laugh when all the pamphlets come home from school telling you to ask everyday what your child is learning in school. That was definitely a no-no in our house. It was better not to focus on it. I would ask about recess, art or music instead. Also, it's very difficult to *trust* what DC is saying, at least mine. He told me about something he learned in class about the tongue I think. I said, "You see, you did do science today." he said, "That's not science, that's just telling. The teacher read it from a book." Their definitions of things are often very different from ours.

I have been so careful about not saying anything regarding academics to most people. I focus more on academic interests ie that his interests are science and history which are not the focus of school. I fear that I often paint DS in a very poor light and it's difficult when he's in ear shot but I don't really care what those people think of DS so I try to end the conversation as quickly as possible.

Yes, that was my DS...he constantly said, "I don't learn anything I don't already know." "I learned that 2 years ago." "Maybe I'll learn something new when I"m in highschool." Now, I knew there were things he didn't know. But they'd work on it for a week, have to do study cards, then have a review sheet, then have a test on it that was word for word the review sheet. If we had covered that at home, there would have been discussion about that topic over a book and we'd move on.

That's how it was with both of my kids. Now that my eldest is 5 (almost) we are starting "formal" school. I use the term "formal" very loosely. To this day, however, I am always worried that I might be hothousing and not even realize it. The thing is, I know I am not doing any such thing, not even close. Being pushy, drilling my kids, etc. is waaaaaay too much work. It's absolutely not my personality to do such things. I just work to keep up with my kids. It's so true what they say about being dragged along for the ride.

And yes, sometimes, "keeping up" means I purchase workbooks for them (they are under no obligation to use them). Other times it means, I make up flash cards or some other learning "tool" to help one of my kids with something when they ask, etc. In short it means doing what ever is needed at the time. Despite this, the doubt re: hothousing still lingers.

I haven't been fully ablt to shrug off the "hothousing" shadow that, sometimes, creeps in. Some days the shadow is almost overpowering and I feel paralyzed. There's this internal struggle, "No, I can't talk to my DD about X, even though she's interested in it; that's a topic for older kids. Discussing it now would be pushy" or I find myself watering down topics for my DD despite the fact that she has shown a readiness to learn/know them in a way that is more advanced than the version I share with her. This leaves her feeling confused and unsure of herself. Afterall if her own mother is dumbing down things for her, how else is she to feel about her abilities.

The question is, if I had never been told that I must be hothousing - afterall how else would a, then 2 year old, know how to read - and if I'd never been informed of normal child development (I had read the charts, but thought perhaps I had been pointed to the wrong information ) would I have ever had any idea that explaining about "the silent e" to a 16 month old was "advanced" or that it was "hothousing" to buy an insect field guide and magnifying glass for a 20 month old and let her go to town learning about insects their morphology, habitats, etc. or purchasing a 1st grade "comprehensive" workbook for a 3 year old because she begged for it and finished half of it in less than a month on her own volition... (Yes, these are some examples of things that I have had denounced as "hothousing" by now ex-friends.)

...Still, had I not been informed about "hothousing", etc. I would have continued to do all the fun things my kids loved without hesitation. Now, there's constantly this pause when I must convince myself that it's okay to do what I would normally do, which is to follow my children's needs (not be a puppet, but to do what I know is best for them and their personalities) and encourage their interests and explorations.

I'm okay with knowing the term "Gifted". It's helpful to me and finally clued me into why the milestone charts were so *off* for my kids. The term "hothousing", well, I could have done without knowing it. Any person who really knows me and my children know that "hothousing", simply, isn't something that happens in my home. Yet, I do know the term and it *does* affect me. It makes me hesitant to do things that I know my children would love and that would benefit them. Sometimes it even causes me to avoid opportunities altogether for fear that I might seem to pushy or that others might perceive that my expectations are too high for my kids given their ages - even though I know that the expectations are on target for them as individuals. (If I could take my brain out of my head and scrub away what I know of "hothousing" and irradicate the negative affect it's had on me, I would).

And now on to the reason I started this response in the first place, kindergarten and this sentence:


When my DD started preschool, she went for approximately 1.5 semester, her speech was very advanced. She had a strong grasp and utilataztion of proper grammar, decent diction, etc. By the time she was done with her preschool *stint*, her speech had changed to match the patterning of those she was around the most - kids around the age 2.5 - 3.5. Now at nearly 5, she does get on good rolls where her speech is more akin to what I had grown accustomed to before preschool. When I asked her about it, while she was attending preschool, her response was, "Oh mom! Kids my age don't talk like that!"

I'm not saying your DD will do this, but only that it's a possibility and not necessarily a terrible thing unless coupled with other negative personality changes.

I think your right in that it is more to do with 'hothousing' then gifted. I am in the same boat but realistically I know it isn't hothousing however I find that I limit the information.


This is my biggest fear with putting her in school with kids her own age. I already see that she dumbs down to fit in when she is around other kids for short time periods. I am hoping the more time she spends with kids the more she will want to be herself but I really fear it will be the other direction. Last night we went out to eat and granted she was very tired after a very active day. So the waiter came over to get our drink order and knelt down next to her to talk to her. Instant baby talk and staring at him. She even dropped her fork which he picked up and said he would get her another one since that one was dirty. She just stared at him. So he finally got up and said I don't think she understands ... so let me get her a fork. LOL ... I think he really thought she was retarded. If I didn't know her I would have thought it too. So the minute he leaves she tells her panda that she brought with her that she knows he is hungry but he needs to be patient. It back to normal talk ... then he returns and back to baby talk. Drives me nuts!! So yes, definitely a fear for me how much she changes to fit in.

Do you think your daughter is getting better now that she is in PS? I am hoping it is more of a phase and not them going backwards. That would be so hard to watch.

My computer "ate" my original response.

Here's the short version: we pulled our kids from preschool. They attended a total of 1.5 semesters, and we didn't like the changes we were seeing, especially in Boo. Also the comments from Boo's lead teacher during our parent/teacher conference were red flags for us. She told us that Boo spent over 90% of her time (by the teachers estimation) alone (where's the socialization there!) and after tellling us that Boo had mastered all the materials for the next year at the school and agreeing that it would be a better fit for Boo to be in with the 5-6 year olds she wasn't going to move her up, because "she needs to learn to be bored".

So we removed her from the school the very next week. We homeschool now and are loving it.

I keep telling myself that the preschool attached to a church is not really academic and is more for socialization so my expectations are not that high, but hearing your story really makes me have doubts. I take DD to the playground a lot here lately since we have had such beautiful weather and since the weather is so nice there have been a lot more children to play with her. So the other day this one boy who is almost a year older then her was there and totally infatuated with her so followed her everywhere. She wanted to go down the big slide but he got on first and wouldn't go down. So she starts telling him how rude he is and he needs to move and I think she pushed him and then he pushed her. So finally we get him to move and she slides down but he follows her everywhere. So since then I have had to hear how boys are mean and rude and they push and on and on. This is why I want her in preschool so she can adjust to other kids. If she is walking across the play equipment and other kids are in the way she politely says excuse me and if she bumps someone I hear her tell them she is sorry. This isn't the norm for a toddler and I am not saying I want to change her but she needs to learn that not everyone is as polite and some kids are more rowdy then others.

I just hope she doesn't end up spending so much time by herself while at preschool. You would think the teacher could have gotten involved and our preschools around here are the same way about not advancing them since they go by the public school cutoff dates. They won't allow a child to move up in a class by abilities but group by age. But I am excited for you that homeschooling is working for you and your family.

There was a thread here a while back that I just loved, I wonder if you will like it too?

http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/9988/1.html

It was one of those exciting moments where I could see my thoughts expanding in new ways as I typed...

Love and More Love,
Grinity

I'm coming into this late ... I'm sorry!

Mizzou, what a great post. That's how I feel a lot of the time -- I worry what *others* will think, not about how I feel about it. For instance, we use big words a lot -- ds6 has shown a preference for precise speech and so we use the most descriptive words possible around him, knowing he'll ask what they mean. He loves it, and remembers some interesting words ("atypical" and "apparently" are some of the funniest ones). Not every kid would care, and not every kid would ask what those words meant. Ds6 is interested and asks, so we answer. I've decided I don't see anything wrong with providing learning experiences that ds can decide to utilize or to ignore. Almost all the time, he takes advantage.

On the "boredom in school" issue: We pulled ds from public K in favor of private gifted because of a bad fit. I wouldn't say ds was "bored" in K. Above all, I think he was *frustrated* rather than "bored." He lashed out verbally at us and his teachers, and physically at the other children. He was quite capable of zoning out into his own little world, but then got in trouble for not paying attention. He was definitely regressing; he started K reading Beverly Cleary books, and was choosing only "Spot lift-the-flap" books by January. His spark was gone.

In the spring, he started a Saturday math class for gifted kids at a well-known university program in our area. It was like seeing a transformation -- he remembered that learning was fun. It was at that point that we started looking at school alternatives.

My goal for ds6 is that he learn to persevere at learning when he is frustrated. At his public school, he couldn't learn that, because there was *no* goal to his frustration -- and he had too much energy to pretend to be engaged all day. He says he likes his new school because they "learn hard new things!" He loves working at his level (although he recently confided that he thinks he's the smartest kid in his class. Not quite what I'd hoped to instill with this school, but that's another post entirely. )

I think "bored" is the wrong word to use here, because it's likely many ND kids are "bored" at school. For my ds, it went beyond "bored" and into "stifling" and "unbearable" -- though different kids have different ways of showing it. And some HG+ kids do fine in regular public school. My ds, with a school that wasn't willing to make early accommodations, was not one of them. It wasn't a case of "bored" -- it was a case of "falling apart at the seams." Academic challenge has really changed him back into himself.

Grinity ... thanks for the link. I am still reading through it but have this comment in regards to what I have read. It definitely has made me re-evaluate my idea of hot-housing which oddly enough is a term that I defined it as to begin with but through the fear of all of it seemed to put it on the back burner and overlooked it.

Hot-housing IMHO (and I am more talking about the early years but it could definitely apply to all stages of education or knowledge) is drilling the kid with curriculum where the results is rote memorization and nothing more. I watch my friend do this with her daughter. My friend was the valedictorian of her small rural class and absolutely believes herself to be profoundly gifted. I think she is smart absolutely, but when I think of exceptionally and profoundly gifted she is not one I would put in that category. I have a few friends that definitely are exceptionally gifted and one that is profoundly gifted and in comparison I just don't see her coming close. And just in case you think I am being petty and full of myself ... I consider myself MG at max and that is only recently. She is also very competitive with everything and she hears of other people's children doing things at X age so she took on the curriculum of her daughter to learn colors, shapes, numbers, etc because it was time and this started around the time her daughter was one. Her daughter has never shown interest in it and never talks about it other then recite back what she asks her. What color is that? answer. What shape is that? answer. So I clearly see that as rote memorization. Her daughter's communication is rote as well. She doesn't openly talk about anything but repeat what is said to her.

So this is what I consider hot-housing and I seemed to forget that in regards to my daughter. She is clearly not in rote memory. She is always recycling ideas showing her comprehension of such ideas and adding to it. So I need to get over it and just pull the workbooks out and see if she likes them. Right now she is on the reading kick so I put her on www.starfall.com today and left the room. She amazed me with how capable she was on the computer. At 2.5 she is able to maneuver the whole website closing windows and going back to the ones she likes and even ranking the stories. And the links on this site can be as small as two letter links and she has the patience and fine motor skills to click on it. She also has always had crazy concentration since she was a baby. If she is interested in something she would sit for 30+ minutes working on it and that has increased as she ages. So today she sat there for way over an hour. So I will let her continue using the website and add to it and see how it goes.

But again .. thanks for the link.

Thanks re: homeschooling!

Re: preschool, my kids went to a Reggio-Emilio School. It's a bit like Montessori in that it's designed to be very hands-on. Unlike Montessori, R-E schools are very arts based and "non-academic". I liked the philosophy, overall. The aged-based groupings and age-appropriate projects/materials/expectations were a poor fit for Boo. I have a feeling she would have thrived in an "appropriate-for-the-individual-child" setting. Then again, so would every child!

My kids were enrolled strictly for the "social" aspect of the school. That idea didn't pan out well for us. Although, Racer loved the sensory table when it was filled with water, soap suds, and toy boats and Boo left with a large collection of collages and sculptures. (Her teacher even commented that she found Boo's sense of depth, balance and color scheming to be highly impressive! )

Your daughter might do wonderfully and find the social aspect fun and engaging. That is to say, please, be sure to take my anecdotal information with a grain of salt. (I'm sure you are, but I said it anyway. )

Oh and with time, I am sure your DD would be able to figure out how other kids work, how to deal with age-mates, etc. by going to the park, on play dates, etc. Also, I've found with homeschooling that while my kids spend time around children their ages, they spend even more time in mixed-aged groupings. This interaction has allowed them to really hone their interpersonal skills, learn to work with a variety of abilities, etc. Just so, if your Plan A (preschool) doesn't pan out the way you hope, you know your DD can still have ample opportunities to hone her social skills.

IMO, you're correct - "bored" isn't the word. At least it isn't to describe what happened to my DD. Have you ever seen the movie "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"? That is more like what happened to my kid; Boo went in, but she didn't come back out! She's *much* better at home now!

And yes, the whole hot-housing/perception of others thing can really be stifling! It's dumb, I know it! Yet, despite this knowledge, it still "gets" me sometimes! I'm getting much better at not letting it hinder what I do with my kids. Perhaps, I should design at 12-Step Program!

Oh Mia!!!! Thank you soooooo much for your post!!! I was in a similar situation w/ no accommodations. It makes me feel like DS isn't so weird.

No problem -- I do what I can! I guess ds6 isn't the only one in our family who likes precise speech.

Wow, This thread has been though provoking as well as an affirmation of what makes this board such a great place to come home to. We can ardently present our views, thoughts and positions knowing that while the positions may be intensely debated, all views are welcome. Even a couple words out of a post may generate a whole new approach to explore to someone with a problem or concern.

Maybe we need a warning on the front page that all posts are the opinions of others and should be read with the intent to explore options but not intended as a "prescription" for anyone? (someone much better with words can figure our how to say that :))

Reading this thread, I am thinking that alot of the behavior and attitude problems that we are seeing recently in DS (10) may be related to boredom in the negative sense. Not quite sure how I'm going to address it but it at least has me thinking in a different direction which I very much needed! I'll start by rereading the book about boys and learning styles...