Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Desperate!!

My son is gifted, and in year 3 at school (UK) - he is aged 7, going on 8

He asks questions that I have to spend ages researching. He asks about black holes, speed of light, mass of objects etc; He eats up facts from CDs/tapes/TV and has an understanding way ahead of any of his peers. He listens to Shakespeare on CD and understands and quotes it. He picks up pieces of wax from candles, or modelling clay, or tin foil, or anything to hand and makes the most remarkable figures (sculptures/models) I have ever seen from a 7 year old - and he doesn't even look at what he is doing. He is bright, outgoing, very confident. But he is a vulnerable, sensitive little boy. He is different and is bullied and excluded by his peers at school.

His teacher says he won't perform in class - but when she has him alone there is no problem. I think he gets easily distracted, his head is everywhere! Teacher told him 'I beyt you mum and dad are worn out with you'. Well we aren't really, as he is a joy.

he won't read, and baulks at maths and arithmetic, but will pore over some books for hours.

What are we going to do to help him? If he doesn't do the 'bread and butter' (maths and English) what is going to happen to him? Shouls I force him to read/write and so his sums or leave him be?

What can I ask the teacher to do to help him in his school work - I think teachers are just not 'tooled up' for kids like my son.

Any advice and words of comfort greatly appreciated.

Generally speaking, not many teachers are "tooled up" to deal with gifted kids. Especially kids who are not conventionally/academically gifted. It's a shame, but it's true.

Gifted kids are sometimes bullied and excluded, mainly because kids his age are frequently not his true peers. He has ideas and interests the kids his age simply can't understand. (And what other time in life are people expected to be grouped strictly according to age? It's really ludicrous!) The best things you can do are to teach him how to cope with this treatment--find other "loners" to befriend and stand up for one another (since having someone speak up on your behalf drops the incidence of bullying by something like 80% according to one study I read! One kid is easy prey, two aren't worth the effort...), crying makes it worse, etc.--and to help him find his true peers. These true peers may be significantly older than he is, but share common interests and skills with him. Gifted kids sometimes don't have lots and lots of friends, especially if they are more introverted and respond better to 1-on-1 interactions. But that's okay! He needs a handful of people who "get" him, not to be the most popular child in school. Find a few friends and his situation will improve.

I know nothing about the state of gifted education in the UK, so I can be no help for you there beyond to suggest that you do some research. Here in the US, programs and opportunities for gifted kids vary from state-to-state, even from school building to school building. Subject acceleration, grade skipping, schools devoted entirely to gifted kids, and home schooling are all potential options here, depending upon your luck and the area in which you live. These might be things to consider for your son.

Talk to the teacher about his strengths and weaknesses and what she thinks might work for him (but remember that you are the best expert on your own child!), consult with the principal/headmaster about possible options available, even check with the superintendent of your local school district--maybe another school in the area has a better track record on gifted education.

Be sure to talk to other parents of gifted kids in your area. What's being done for their kids? There may even be a local support group for parents, in part to offer the very advice and comfort you require, but also in part to help parents to advocate for changes and programs to benefit their kids. Seek it out. If we have them here, there's probably something like them there.

Your son sounds like a gifted child, and not the compliant kind if the work he's given bores him. (I was a compliant gifted kid; my son, who appears to be significantly more gifted than I ever was, isn't compliant. Compliance is no indicator of anything except compliance.) But non-compliant behavior can make it more challenging to get him the help he needs, because many, MANY people assume gifted kids can just learn anything and everything should be easy for them. But gifted kids have special needs, as surely as a child who falls at the other end of the bell curve has special needs.

Gifted kids think differently, learn differently, need stimulation that's often very different from what they receive in a standard classroom. You will have to advocate for your son if you want to 1) teach the schools what they need to know to help your son, and 2) stand up for what's right for him. It's not easy. It's often a battle.

You might consider having him tested, preferably by someone with experience and expertise in testing gifted kids. Walking into the school administrators with ability and achievement tests in hand can sometimes get people moving better than simply saying "My son is gifted" will. Not always, but sometimes. Administrators like numbers. It can also give you some indication about what your son's specific needs actually are, though again, you are the best expert about your son. Test scores are just another bit of information to help you make decisions.

You're among friends here. You're not alone, and neither is your son. I wish I knew more about the state of the UK's gifted education so that I could point you in some useful directions, but all I can give you is generic advice. Start researching now for those specifics, and don't stop until you find something that works for your son as a whole person. (That's key!) You may have to think creatively and do things differently than everyone around you. (I'm currently home schooling my son, something I never thought I would do!) But if it works for your son, you'll feel it's totally worth all the swimming upstream that you have to do to get there! Promise!

All the best,

K-

Thanks Kriston.

It is really hard - I too was a gifted 'compliant', and as a result was put up a grade when I was 7. The thing is my boy doesn't show up as gifted on the maths.English radar as you have noted.

I am really frustrated and exhausted, and am afraid of confronting his teacher with the 'my son is gifted' line, as that tends to raise hackles. In the UK they have a program for identifying the top 10% of the brightest kids - but these kids are not (necessarily) gifted. I will certainly take your advice and see what I can find out

thanks again

P

I feel the same frustration and exhaustion for my 6-year-old's situation. We talked in another thread about the feeling of grief that we carry. Like we're grieving for the schools that never came. It's so wearing to depend on an institution only to have it let your child down so completely.

I'm sorry.

The forum seems quiet this morning, but please do check back. There are lots of people here who know and have been through lots more than I know and have been through. I'm sure you'll get more good help. And probably lots of commiseration!

K-

Welcome Raddy,
I'm so pleased that you found us here. You son sounds like a real pleasure. I have a (few) questions.

1) have you checked out his "Ruf Estimated Gifted Level?" If so, what information did you find?

2) If you ask for it in writing, with the school do an individual IQ and Achievement test?

3) You mention that he 'won't read...but will pour over some books for hours' - can you say more about this? Is he literally below grade level when he is alone with the teacher?

4)You say he baulks at math and arithmetic. What happens when you try a free trial of Aleks.com? Memorizing Math facts is more about memorizing and "seat power" then Math. Doing work that is below one's readiness level, again is about compliance, but what is he like if you show him some "fancy stuff?" Memorizing is an important skill, but I don't believe that it should be called Math.

5) Are you at a state funded school? Are their "out-of-pocket" school within a reasonable communte? I found that I learned a lot by introducing my son to a few "out-of-pocket" schools and listening carefully to their assesments of him.

6) What happenes when he tries to make stories? Can he write them down? Can he let you record them or scribe for him?

Bottom line, I think that if he is being coerced, then he is not going to be able to show himself in school, that this is the school's responsibility to figure out how to make it safe for him. Do not let them off the hook because he's uncompliant. Males tend to be more sure of themselves in terms of "what they want, and how they feel about not getting it."

Love and More Love,
Trinity

Hi Raddy:

I hope we can help.

Can you tell me a little bit more about what you mean when you say he won't read and he won't do math and arithmetic?

Will he read at home but not at school? Rarely read, unless a book really interests him? OR is he reading below grade level, or just not reading in class?

When you say he won't do math, is he refusing to do it in class, or just not interested in it? Are there any areas of math that do interest him?

bk

Thanks Trinity and bk1

Trinity:
1) have you checked out his "Ruf Estimated Gifted Level?"
I don't know what this is, buty I will find out

2) If you ask for it in writing, with the school do an individual IQ and Achievement test?
I am a bit concerned that I don't want to become one of those parents, and there are many as you are probably aware, who thinks their little darlings are the bees knees. I will discuss this with the teacher today though, as it may be a way forward.

3) You mention that he 'won't read...but will pour over some books for hours' - can you say more about this? Is he literally below grade level when he is alone with the teacher?
It is hard to get this information. The terachers here are so afraid of telling you your child is struggling, or below par. We appear to have a culture of 'everyone is god at everything', and not comparing children in the same cohort for fear of branding some as failures. In my opinion this is facile since everyone knows that people are good at some things and bad at others. Again, i will try and pin the teacher down on this today.
At home, when he has 'set' books, it is like swimming through treacle trying to read with him. Yet when he goes to bed, he surrounds himself with books. He will spend ages looking at science books. His current favourite is 'Flotsam' which is a brilliant story without pictures. Also, 'Where's Wally', since he has a kind of fascination with little people (this ties in with his sculpture)

4)You say he baulks at math and arithmetic. What happens when you try a free trial of Aleks.com? Memorizing Math facts is more about memorizing and "seat power" then Math. Doing work that is below one's readiness level, again is about compliance, but what is he like if you show him some "fancy stuff?" Memorizing is an important skill, but I don't believe that it should be called Math.
I will check this site out. I have never tried fancy stuff, maybe I should, tho' I'm no mathematician myself

5) Are you at a state funded school? Are their "out-of-pocket" school within a reasonable communte? I found that I learned a lot by introducing my son to a few "out-of-pocket" schools and listening carefully to their assesments of him.
We are state funded, but it's a good school in a nice area. Private schools are so expensive ($16000 p.a.)

6) What happenes when he tries to make stories? Can he write them down? Can he let you record them or scribe for him?
His imagination is vivid. It is hard for him to pick up a pencil and write. I will try scribing, which again is a great idea.


bk1
I think I covered most of your points above.
I think books with lots of words (lots to him, not me) just turn him off. If he listens to books on tapes or CDs he has great understanding and retention (he has a marvellous memory for stuff)

His maths - he can do his 2,3,4,5,6 and 10 times tables (I drilled him I'm afraid). I will have to look into more advanced maths, which may do the trick.

I have taken to sitting him down every night and kind of forcing him to pay attention to a book, or a piece of maths - but i'm so unsure as to whether this is more harm than good. I am trying to get him to focus. I don't know if 'm doing right or not. I don't want to squash all that is special about this fella out of him - but i want him to grow up and have some kind of normal life.

Thanks for your kind input amd time

P

Sometimes non-complient gifted kids take an interest in something they don't want to do when they realize they'll need it to do something else they do care about. If he loves science and wants to study science more fully, then perhaps you could use that love to spur him to take a (necessary) interest in maths. Showing him the calculations scientists do to study black holes and such might help. And maybe doing some of the "perfect" ratio, "Golden Mean" math that sculptors use might get him to math through his art? (I'm SOOOOO not an expert on this, so here's a link to give you an idea of what I'm thinking of: http://www.miqel.com/fractals_math_patterns/visual-math-phi-golden.html .)

Also, I know what you mean about not wanting to become thought of as "one of those parents." We're nice people, right? And it's not that we think our kid is better than the other kids. Plus, as compliant people ourselves, we want to be the "good" school parents.

But my own personal take on that problem is this: I felt like I was presented with the choice to become "that parent" or to let my child become "that kid." I picked the former--doing so as gently and as non-confrontationally as I could--since I don't feel my son ought to have to bear the label of the latter. This is in no way a criticism of you or your choices; I'm a *firm* believer that we each have to thread our way through the educational system/this minefield in our own manner! But I also think the system generally forces us to make the choice between advocating and becoming "that parent" or letting the child suffer. I think there's a way to be as nice as you can possibly be about it, but also to advocate for your child. I think focusing on your child's needs in the conversation, rather than "bragging" about his gifts, helps (with attention paid to the needs of the teacher and that particular classroom, too). You may still wind up branded as "that parent," but if you do, then there wasn't much you could have done to prevent that while still looking out for your child.

But like I said, we all have to figure out how to balance our children's interests with maintaining the attention of the educators and administrators, and we all have to do it in our own ways. I'm certainly still trying to figure out how to handle those difficult conversations, and I'm sure I'm not good at it!

Best,

K-

P-
Good for you for drilling the times tables. Once he gets his 9's he will be even with me! (do you know the trick for nines with holding 10 fingers up and crocking one finger - number of finger to the left of the crook is the 10 place, and to the right is the ones place. Sorry it's hard to discribe but easy to show. Basic idea is that if you add the digits together you will get 9 - 18, 1+8=9, 27, 2+7=9, etc.)

I reccoment about equal time to "mommy teach" and "kid teach mommy" so that you can do both the drilling the world needs and the encouraging that he needs to develop his own areas of interest.

If he refuses to slog through the early readers, see if he is reading his science books. Trick to try- read aloud and skip a line, see if he protests. Remember that reading aloud elegantly isn't the same at all as reading silently for understanding. If you leave him a note in the kitchen that says - "There's a candy waitng for you under your pillow" - will he start running like mad for the bedroom?

"Baby books" just aren't for everyone. For how many years did children learn to read from the Bible? Perhaps the science books are the equavalent to that for him? Since he likes to listen to complicated stories, you know he is processing deeply. Allow him to use audio books and reading aloud to feed the flame of his mind.

Food for thought: I think that there are some interesting parallels to the delayed handwriting that is so common in gifted kids, and the delayed reading that does appear in some gifted kids as well. Think about youself trying to type to me. If you only had a cell phone keypad to use to write with, wouldn't the quality and detail suffer? I know that when I go on vacation, I am sometimes itching to answer my emails, but my tiny little phone pad makes it almost impossible for me. Really really painful.

Similarly, when a brain only function on "high octane petrol" and is being given "see dick run" to read, there's going to be problems. My son's reading wasn't anywhere near satisfactory to him until he was almost 6. He may have had developmental eye muscle problems, or it just may have been that 'octane' problem. Like typing, once one reaches a certian level of skill, the ideas just flow out and the mechanics of typing or reading dissapear in the quest for communication.

Anyway - put on you Sherlock Holms hat, see where he is. Get as much specifics from the teacher as you can, but don't be fooled into thinking that that is your only source of information. You can do plenty of direct observation. We'll back you. We're a terrific bunch of problem solvers here, with a good storehouse of information, so post as you go and we'll ask good questions and share little tips.

As far as not wanting to be "one of those parents" - read all the posts here that you can. You can be one of us parents instead. If you show that you respect the teachers and are genuinly concerned for your child, I believe that you will be ok.

Some kids just are quite 'not well rounded' and elementary years are very difficult for them. If abstract thought is your child's gift, then these early years will be difficult. Both of these issues seem to become easier with time, but the steps you take now can make a big difference to what kind of shape he'll be in when the opportunities arise.

Love and More Love,
Trinity

Thanks all again.
We have an appointment with his teacher after school today - so fingers crossed. She si the special needs co-ordinator - which unfortunately means SEN not gifted!

I will let you all know what happens later

thanks

P

P -
good luck with the meeting...these things are scary....sometimes they will be right on target and sometimes they are just plain wrong. If they think something is wrong, agree that you are concerned and ask them to do the IQ/achievment testing to check. Find out the name of any test they plan to use. Bring a notebook and take lots of notes. Make a list of pamper things to do for yourself when you get home, and then do them - these meetings can be very stressful.
Best Wishes,
trin

Here is the Ruf Levels Link

Hi Raddy:

I think sometimes teachers do tend to roll their eyes when parents use the gifted label. I think if you go in talking about WHAT your son is doing, rather than what category he fits in, you may have some success. I think also that teachers are more responsive to hearing about how a situation is affecting a child's emotions.

I'm pasting below something I wrote as advice to someone else a while back. It's what I told my son's teacher last year when asking for him to be challenged in class. For the first time ever, in four years of asking, the teacher responded by trying to tailor lessons and material for him so that he was challenged.

Here's what I said:

My child is a really fast learner. He gets frustrated when classes spend too long going over the same information. He comes home really excited any day he learns something new. He comes home depressed on days when he hasn't learned anything new. My child has an amazing memory and thirst for knowledge, so he wants to learn a lot of detail about any subject you are covering. For example, he thought ____book about chemistry was really boring because it had so few facts. He really liked ____ book about chemistry because it provided more facts and interesting things to think about. He has gotten so frustrated about not getting called on that he doesn't bother to try to raise his hand and answer questions any more.

So, you've talked about his needs without using the dreaded "g" word that seems so off-putting to a number of teachers.

I am wondering, with the poor fine motor skills, if your son also has problems doing what I call "tracking" --- following a long line of text across the page, without slipping accidentally to another line, or keeping columns straight when adding. This could affect his interest in reading and doing math. I think it would be worth mentioning to the teacher when you ask for an evaluation. There are tests that look for these kinds of issues, I believe.

As far as reading, my son really took off reading with the Captain Underpants series by Dav Pilkey. They are totally silly, and there are just a few lines of text per picture, so it was easy for him to follow the line across the page. Perhaps your son needs that sort of spare text to get into reading? Now that DS is 8, he's really enjoyed books of the Calvin and Hobbes cartoons. Your son might enjoy thinking about some of the philosophical ideas that come up in them, yet there are usually just one or two lines of text per box. At our house, they've been the source of endless conversations!

Also, my son has an interest in math concepts, but NOT math drilling. He does really love a television cartoon program called Cyberchase that shows mathematical ideas and problem solving. The shows come from our public broadcasting network. You should be able to find out whether you can buy them by going to www.pbskids.org. They are entertaining enough that your son will just think they are another set of videos.

Good luck,

bk

We went to see the teacher and had a good (40 minutes ) session. Trying to get her to appreciate that he is different is nigh on impossible. She thinks his head is everywhere - and mentioned that he will put his hand up and volunteer some new facts about the Ancient Egyptians in the middle of a maths session. I think she has her hands full, quite honestly, but she is not 'worried' about him. One good thing is that she tells him to come and see her before each break period and talk to her about what interesting things he has to say. This, I suppose, keeps class disruption down, and also gives him a chance to show what he is made of. With the just below par performance in reading and writing, this system is not going to do anything in terms of more challenging work I'm afraid.

One thing, we took some of his models along and she was literally 'gobsmacked' as we say here. She couldn't get over how anatomically correct they were, and yet the level of abstraction in his work. She has told us she will be seeing the art co-ordinator (I won't hold my breath but which I will chase up).

I am very aware that we need to give him freedom to do his own thing and trust that it all comes together on the bread and butter. I don't want to squeeze the (very) 'special' out of him.

With the writing thing, I am going to get him to write a little book of robots. Almost every morning his first words are 'dad, I'm going to design a robot that can...'. I'm going to try and harness that to get him to draw the design and then write about it. It mat be a way of introducing some maths concepts too (mechanics, fulcrums....I dunno). More work for dad.

So once again, thanks for your suggestions which I am certainly taking note of. I will probably nip to the local library to find some calvin and Hobbs today, along with a tape set of Greek Myths (another favourite of his)/ I looked at Aleks and have been in touch with them about how the study pattern will mesh with the UK curriculum. I need to chase up the Intelligence Tests.

I wonder if anyone has treid the Multiple Inteeligence testing for their little'uns, which can prove quite insightful? see one example here:
http://www.mitest.com/omitest.htm

there are others you can google.

the BBC has g some good education resources like PBS, like:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/ks2bitesize/

have a great weekend all and a million thanks again

P

Well P,
It sounds like you have gotten some good info and built relationship with the teacher which is good. I think the intelligence testing is the needed next step. I don't think the Multiple Inteligence thing is going to help you because (my bias) I'll bet your son is basically 'way above average' on almost every kind of intelligence. So I think the system is good in for a school to try and 'pan for gold' and catch the strengths of all it's students, but not much use for kids who are processing at your son's level.

Are you open to homeschooling? Sounds like now that you see what the teacher has to deal with on a daily basis you realize that you could hire a tutor 2 hours a week, and drill him yourself 20 minutes a day, and let him pursue his interests the whole rest of the time without any loss. I've never had the daytime hours to try it myself, but to me it seems like something one could try for a year and see if it fits.

Glad to see you are less "Desperate"
((hugs))
Trinity

I don't know what the laws are about homeschooling there, but if you can do it and you think it might be beneficial, it probably would be.

We're homeschooling (after DS6 went a month to our local elementary school) and we LOVE it! I wouldn't have believed it if you'd told me two months ago that I'd say that, but it's true. Many benefits! (To me as well as to my son, surprisingly.)

If you're interested, I'd be happy to tell you more. No hard sell or anything.

K-

I have thought about the home schooling, but I think my boy likes the social aspect of school - especially if the bullying is kept under control.

one thing bk1 mentioned was his fine motor skills. The teacher - amazed at his model work - commented on the fine motor skills needed to achieve the level of detail he has.

picked up a Calvin & Hobbes and will it iout with him later today.

I picked up a Greek Myths tape (Greek Civilistaion is on this year's syllabus), which he set going and listened to all day while making models out of modelling clay - which he then tried to breathe life into a la Prometheus!! He will have all the myths 'off pat' by now - ready to amaze his classmates and teacher in Spring.

I also picked up a tape by Bertrand Russell called 'The ABC of Relativity' for myself. He comes up with the odd physics question - like, if one was travelling at the speed of light would you see your shadow?!!! - so I need to get more up to speed. I just hope he doesn't get onto Quantum Physics.

I need to investigate the Intelligence Tes situation - these things cost a lot of spondoolicks over here, and I believe finding a practitioner can be a bit hit-and-miss.

have a great weekend all

P

That sounds so good, P!
I love that you are modeling being a life long learner. I have also heard that some of the local university professors will have little "visits" with some of our kids, and try to answer their questions, so put on your "to do" list calling up the local universities, making friends with the staff, and seeing who you can come to visit.

As far as homeschooling goes. You can keep him in till the end of December, and then do a semester at home to try and see how he likes it. I've never done it, but I keep hearing that kids have more time to socalize when they homeschool, and that instead of just 'being around kids, but not getting to talk or play much' they get to actually play and work with kids who they have more in common with. Plus here in the US, afterschool sports and scouting activites are very big, and it's hard to fit them all in when so many hours are taken up with school.

Best Wishes,
Trinity

In my experience, it's true that kids have more time to socialize when homeschooled. It can, however, be harder to find kids to play with if you don't make an effort. Joining a good homeschoolers' association helps, since they're free when you are--in the middle of the day.

And it is definitely much higher quality socializing that takes place outside the traditional school building. No waiting in line, no bullying, no being shushed when they meet someone they like and want to talk to...All good things!