Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 196 guests, and 25 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    streble, DeliciousPizza, prominentdigitiz, parentologyco, Smartlady60
    11,413 Registered Users
    March
    S M T W T F S
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,299
    I
    inky Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,299
    This was mentioned on the More Child Blog. It's a letter to the editor responding to a statement that parent activists tend to be limited to helping their own children.

    Quote
    But those of us who join e-mail groups, sit through meetings, testify at hearings, uncover and post documents, and crunch data are almost universally motivated by a passion to help all families and all children.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...09020701677.html?wprss=rss_print/outlook

    S
    san54
    Unregistered
    san54
    Unregistered
    S
    Hi Inky,

    In many scenarios, a parent must take care of the entire family, work to pay bills, and spend more time tending to a gifted child who doesn't have adult maturity to deal with 30 hrs. a week in an existence that's futile to their development...an existences that disrespects who they are and doesn't care. Many of these children become emotionally disturbed and harder to manage. This tries an entire family. Where is the time to become activists for everyone? To say we must is to be completely ignorant of how consuming it is to raise children and to sustain a full marriage. The letter writer doesn't understand how some of us are bloodied and exhausted from bureaucratic brick walls in our communities, just to see one child receive justice. True, we do have more time later on in life. Hope I don't sound rabid. smile

    Last edited by san54; 02/10/09 05:48 AM.
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,299
    I
    inky Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,299
    San54, you don't sound rabid smile I had a different interpretation and didn't think the letter writer was implying that everyone should become activists or that we have to advocate for everyone. Instead she was defending parents who are activists when others cast aspersions on their intentions by saying "they are only trying to help their own child."

    Especially with gifted issues, it is hard for activist parents to defend against being labelled elitist. Fortunately someone else's child doesn't have to lose in order for our children to "win" appropriate challenges in the classroom.

    Last edited by inky; 02/10/09 01:46 PM.
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,167
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,167
    I think that in many cases, the children within our own families take up so much of our time that we don't have time to advocate for all. But in some cases it happens anyway. If you successfully advocate for say a multi grade skip in a district that has never done it before, you set a precedence for the next child that comes along. Hopefully those parents won't have to fight quite so hard.

    The school my DS6 is in has been very honest with me regarding my son's "guinea pig" status. They've never done several of the things that they're doing with him but they are paying attention as to what works so that it can be implemented district wide. So in a way my son and I are advocating for the whole district.


    Shari
    Mom to DS 10, DS 11, DS 13
    Ability doesn't make us, Choices do!
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    My worry there is how much pressure it puts on that first family and what happens if it doesn't work out:

    "Well, we tried it once and it failed [perhaps because of personality of the child or something totally unrelated to anyone else who might come along later], so we'll never try again."

    frown

    We heard this in one educational situation, and though she allowed him in the class, I wish she hadn't. It turned out that she had decided sight-unseen that DS7 wasn't going to fit in her math class. Guess what? She was right! cry

    He's now in a different math class in the exact same age range, and it's going swimmingly! The difference? The teacher hadn't ever had a bad experience with any other accelerated child.

    Trailbreakers are WONDERFUL when they actually break trails; they're less nice for those who come after when things don't go well...


    Kriston
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    A problem that many of our families run into is that while they would like to 'support all children' or 'support all gifted child' the reality of LOG means that there are none or few children that would really benifit from the kinds of accomidations that an HG or PG child really needs. The actual needs of two PG children with identical IQ scores could be wildly dissimilar. What we need is a full crayon box of options that help all children, all gifted children, AND our own children. In a way, once the relevant Adults' eyes are open and the need is 'seen' finding programing to fit the need is a secondary issue.

    A great example of this is when teachers test a child, and then seem to 'give up' if the child tests a grade or two above the grade that they are in and stop the test, announcing that the child is at 'X grade.' This happens all the time, not out of spite, but out of 'your won't see what you can't imagine.'

    Kriston, it's sad that the 'recieving teacher' was so unreceptive, but I'll bet you a dollar that the reason the 'trailblazer' failed was that she had the same attitude before she met the 'trailblazer' as she did when you met her. Just a thought. It's the old question of 'association or causation,' yes?

    Bottom line is that it's unfortunatly rare to have a good experience with a teacher who is 'against' having a child in her care. Ther are exceptions of course, and we were lucky enough to be one of them. Our DS12 had a teacher who, although she fairly bristled at the thought of DS being skipped into her class, worked very hard to teach him lots and lots of skills, attitudes, and material during two years at the private school. She never felt that the placement was 'a good thing' and her attitude was hard on him in certian ways - but he grew SO much from her! I sure wished that the situation would have been flexible enought that he could have had the skip with 'subject deceleration' in Language Arts only. ((sigh)) No perfect answers - that's for sure!

    Love and More Love,
    Grinty


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    That's absolutely a possibility. But it is also possible that the child was truly misplaced. The fact is, we don't know.

    My point is that just as one successful skip doesn't guarantee that every skipped child will be happy and successful, neither does one failed skip--even a true failure and not just an assumption that it wouldn't work!--mean that all kids who come after wanting/needing skips will fail.

    I guess I'm just saying that it's a double-edged sword if that sort of trailblazing is the only organized advocacy that we participate in. Those trails don't always lead the way we want them to go. frown

    Granted, I'm not out there fighting the good fight right now, so I'm sort of a hypocrite about this. blush But when I am able to do more than just (barely!) keep my head above water, I do intend to do some more advocacy work. I think it's really important.


    Kriston
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,299
    I
    inky Offline OP
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    I
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 1,299
    Last night I heard Dr. Sylvia Rimm talk and she said she started as a parent advocate which led to a career in psychology. She said there are quite a few of her colleagues that followed a similar path.

    I see how it happens. After going through all the uncertainty and frustration to discover DD's school was using erroneous MAP data, I want changes so other parents won't go through the same.


    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,296
    Val Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,296
    Originally Posted by Grinity
    A problem that many of our families run into is that while they would like to 'support all children' or 'support all gifted child' the reality of LOG means that there are none or few children that would really benifit from the kinds of accomidations that an HG or PG child really needs.
    Grinty

    I've always thought that a big problem undermining advocacy on behalf of gifted kids is the focus on the ones whose IQ scores are 2 or more standard deviations above the mean (2% of the population at most).

    A better approach would be to focus on kids who are at least 1 standard deviation above the mean (16% of the population). On top of this group would be kids who don't meet this criteria but who clearly excel in one or more areas.

    Most or all of the children in this larger group would benefit from acceleration to whatever degree would be appropriate. In light of accelerating many kids in one or more subjects, accelerating a very few by a whole grade or more would not seem so weird anymore.

    We do this with athletes all the time when we accelerate them to the varsity team at a young age. No one thinks it's odd if some 13-year-old who can run 400 meters in 53 seconds races against (and beats) high school seniors. No one tells her to stop running while others catch up. We just cheer. And no one thinks it odd that she does math for 13-year-olds during the school day. This is another way of saying that we respect an athlete's asynchronous development.

    Back in the 80s, advocates for disabled kids weren't restricted to parents of kids with IQs more than two standard deviations below the mean! If this had been the case, special needs groups never would have got out of the starting gates. IQ didn't even enter any of the discussions I heard. Rather, those parents took exactly the approach that I outlined above. They said, very bluntly "My kid isn't learning how to read, and what are you going to do about it???" They focused on individual needs of a reasonably large group of kids who were bright enough to do better and learn more. Sound familiar?

    The parents of those kids got what the wanted, and the kids with very low IQs (more than 2 standard deviations...) also reaped huge benefits.

    The same could happen with HG and PG kids if people start advocating for the bigger picture en masse...getting the parents of the very large number of bright kids on board would force a change.

    Just my 2c.

    Val

    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Dec 2005
    Posts: 7,207
    Originally Posted by Val
    A better approach would be to focus on kids who are at least 1 standard deviation above the mean (16% of the population). On top of this group would be kids who don't meet this criteria but who clearly excel in one or more areas.

    Most or all of the children in this larger group would benefit from acceleration to whatever degree would be appropriate. In light of accelerating many kids in one or more subjects, accelerating a very few by a whole grade or more would not seem so weird anymore.

    We do this with athletes all the time when we accelerate them to the varsity team at a young age. No one thinks it's odd if some 13-year-old who can run 400 meters in 53 seconds races against (and beats) high school seniors. No one tells her to stop running while others catch up. We just cheer.
    Val

    I'm cheering for you Val! This clearly would create a wonderful atmousphere, except when schools use it to say - we have a program and it works for every kid except yours. How can you tell us that your child is still bored with a single grade subject acceleration? And what about the kids who are reading at High School Level but writing at agemate level?

    So I love this approach as one fabulous crayon in the box, but still want schools to have a whole palate of options to use flexibly for individual children,KWIM? I would add to this great idea a few others:

    A nationally recognised online educational program that is free, universally accepted, and totally 'go at your own pace.'

    Self contained classrooms where PG kids can learn with other PG agemates.

    Generous use of cheap accomidations to let kids with LDs and bottlenecks fly!

    One room school house classrooms where the teacher can teach the same unit to kids who are abstract thinking on the same level, but have different 'output' abilities based on physical maturity. So a High School teacher might teach the novel 'The Giver' to 'smart' 9th graders, and grant a 9th-grade grades to the folks who write 10 page papers at the ninth grade level, and 5th-grade grades to younger folks who are only able to write 10 paragraph papers at the 5th grade level.

    And I'm sure there are more inexpensive ways to fill up that crayon box!


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,296
    Val Offline
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 3,296
    Originally Posted by Grinity
    I'm cheering for you Val! This clearly would create a wonderful atmousphere, except when schools use it to say - we have a program and it works for every kid except yours. How can you tell us that your child is still bored with a single grade subject acceleration? And what about the kids who are reading at High School Level but writing at agemate level?

    I guess that was my point: with disabled kids, the schools have NO CHOICE. The law says the schools must give them individual attention, regardless of what you could call Level of Disability. This is why you hear about kids who have their own aides in class or kids whose private school fees are covered by the public school budget. The law recognizes that kids describable as profoundly disabled (PD?) have a right to individualized intervention.

    The learning requirements of PD kids and HG/PG kids are mirror images: each group requires individualized education plans. At this time, schools can't tell the parents of a PD child that "we have a plan that works for all these other kids, and your child will have to do the best he can with it." They'd be breaking the law!

    While it is true that some schools do a lot better than others with IEPs, the fact is that kids with disabilities have the law on their side. Bright kids are at the mercy of the system.


    Another poster said that it was up to other parents to do the advocating on behalf of their kids, but my point is that the change will only happen when a large chunk of the parents (and advocacy groups) of ALL talented kids stand together, which was exactly what happened to help disabled kids.

    Short of another Sputnik scare, which might only help gifted kids for a limited time, I'm not convinced that anything will change substantially until a lot of people stand together.

    I know it's not easy to implement! But a solution needs to be defined before it can be implemented.

    Val

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Originally Posted by Val
    Another poster said that it was up to other parents to do the advocating on behalf of their kids, but my point is that the change will only happen when a large chunk of the parents (and advocacy groups) of ALL talented kids stand together, which was exactly what happened to help disabled kids.

    Short of another Sputnik scare, which might only help gifted kids for a limited time, I'm not convinced that anything will change substantially until a lot of people stand together.


    Sing it, sister! You know I agree completely!


    Kriston
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    It's not so much about being "concerned" about the kid at +1 SD. It's about creating a louder voice. If solely the +3 SD parents speak up, then we have very little leverage. There simply aren't enough of us. But if *all* the parents of +1 SDs and beyond speak in one voice, we sound louder and it gets easier to make some actual progress. Strength in numbers being what it is...

    As Val and I have said before, we admire the *organization* of the parents with kids at the other end of the curve. Is life perfect for them? Oh, no! But they did a GREAT job of organizing back in the 70s and 80s, and they made great strides. Things are a LOT better for special needs kids than they were before those efforts were made. I think we all agree with that, don't we?

    Personally, I think about how much better things could be for our GT kids if we actually made the same sort of effort. Still not perfect, of course, but better.


    Kriston
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    The thought occurs to me also that since you're in PA, Dottie, you do sort of have the (state) law on your side already. Those of us for whom no law regarding GT services exists might feel a bit more drive to organize...


    Kriston
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    I totally hear you. I'm not much of a joiner, frankly. And I freely admit that advocacy isn't my strong suit.

    But as I see it, this is the problem in the scenario you described:

    Originally Posted by Dottie
    I'm not sure what my point here is....I feel bad standing alone and not fighting the good fight, but that fight is tiring, and the other side is huge with bigger weapons.

    Now imagine if you had had 5-10% of the school's parents standing beside you... The other side looks not so big by comparison all of a sudden!


    Kriston
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 1,840
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 1,840
    Originally Posted by Val
    Short of another Sputnik scare, which might only help gifted kids for a limited time, I'm not convinced that anything will change substantially until a lot of people stand together.

    Why do we expect this nation or any other nation to support GT kids, when they will be economically exploited and then used as whipping boys when the politicans' stupidity catches up with them? The same people who will cut the kids down for being brilliant when kids, will attack them for doing something valuable and hence becoming successful when they grow up under the guise of "fairness." People are content to have a landscaper with an IQ of 200, but scream bloody murder when his daughter makes 2 million a year.

    This country has a much deeper problem that prevents it from addressing the needs of the gifted and which prevents all indviduals from being successful. The nation needs to reevaluate what it means to be tolerant and supportive of individual choices and differences - beyond just the superficially obvious differences. This deepset prejudice against success diminishes us all.















    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 1,840
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 1,840
    I think the best strategy is to form regional centers for educating GT kids by coming up with a systems approach and within the GT movement and then infiltrate specific local institutions to implement that system. ( GT Guerillas!)

    School districts with good programs should be patronized by parents moving into those districts. This builds local political mass to improve and strengthen those K-12 programs. (Do not even waste time with ignorant schools. Just move. )

    Parents should then approach a local university to provide cohort programs and early admissions for kids to allow the K-12 program to pipeline into the University.

    Professors should be recruited to mentor the kids who can then enter research and accelerated graduate programs specifically tailored to their needs. Programs in math, computers, robotics, and genetics would attract these kids.

    The kids need to stay local to continue to build political support as they will become the outliers that continue to power growth.

    This then builds the institutional basis to specifically cater to the GT population.

    A handful of parents could make this happen by picking a suburban school district, getting the right programs in place, then spread the word nationally via other institutions ( ie Pediatricans ). It would then build critical mass.

    Right now, most GT parents are spinning their wheels, fighting the same battles all the time all over the place by themselves, never being able to solve the next set of problems. No one gets anywhere this way.





    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Originally Posted by Austin
    The same people who will cut the kids down for being brilliant when kids, will attack them for doing something valuable and hence becoming successful when they grow up under the guise of "fairness." People are content to have a landscaper with an IQ of 200, but scream bloody murder when his daughter makes 2 million a year.

    If the daughter earned the money and people paid her for her work, why would anyone complain it's not "fair"? I'm not really following you here. I've never heard of such a thing happening.


    Kriston
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    I would guess this reference pertains to our nation�s CEOs.

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Oh. Well, if they're taking taxpayer money because they're in financial trouble, then while I wouldn't call a $2 million salary not "fair," I would call it not *reasonable*...

    Broke companies cut back on expenses!


    Kriston
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2006
    Posts: 778
    I agree. Although it does seem to me that the worst broke companies get the bailouts while more fiscally responsible, better managed companies experiencing set-backs from the recession are ignored.

    In my experience, criticism of CEO salaries has been prevalent in social gatherings for years though. I can see both sides to the argument, believing people with the necessary skill sets are rare, but many do seem overly materialistic.

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    I agree, delbows, but I'm sorry to have taken us on a tangent with my confusion. blush

    We return you now to your regularly scheduled thread...


    Kriston
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 353
    E
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    E
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 353
    Kriston,
    DS is in the position of being one of those trailblazers. His school is trying things with him that they haven't done before. It is alot of pressure on DS since he is aware that they are doing different things for him. He is also not the best candidate to be a guinea pig due to his 2E issues. In fact, earlier this week, DS was asking me why he got to go to 5th grade math but his friends didn't when he is sure the could do better than him. It was hard trying to explain that while he was probably right that his friends might be able to handle the subject skip, the school had their own reasons for letting him try it first.
    It doesn't help that DS is struggling with math for the first time in his life. He gets all the concepts easily but since he refuses to double check or show his work, he is making lots of preventable errors. I worry that if he doesn't keep a high A average that he will hurt the chances of future students to get the skips that they may need. However, his Math teacher thinks that he will self correct with a couple lower scores and hopefully learn a good lesson. I guess only time will tell at this point.

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    It sounds like the teacher has the right idea. She's thinking about your son, not treating him as an indicator for all GT kids, and she's not expecting/demanding perfection. That's all good! I'm optimistic for your DS. smile

    It's just that it's stereotyping, really, to judge ALL kids by what happened with one, you know? So much for treating them as individuals...


    Kriston
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 353
    E
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    E
    Joined: Mar 2007
    Posts: 353
    Oh, I adore his Math teacher smile She is really down to earth and one of the only teachers I've found that truly differentiates for her students according their individual needs. The goood news if if we stay in the district next term, he will have her full days for all subjects smile

    However, I am concerned that if DS doesn't continue to handle his self paced math well, that the administration will not consider it for future students. I completly agree with you about the stereotyping issue. Especially, since DS has an IEP for an undefined LD.

    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Sep 2007
    Posts: 6,145
    And you have enough to worry about with your own child. You shouldn't have to worry about his being some sort of emblematic figure.

    If a child happens to make things easier for those who follow, great. But the relative success or "failure" of one child shouldn't make or break policy. frown


    Kriston
    Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

    Moderated by  M-Moderator, Mark D. 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by aeh - 03/27/24 01:58 PM
    Quotations that resonate with gifted people
    by indigo - 03/27/24 12:38 PM
    New, and you'd think I'd have a clue...
    by astronomama - 03/24/24 06:01 AM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 03/23/24 06:11 PM
    Son 2e, wide discrepancy between CogAT-Terranova
    by astronomama - 03/23/24 07:21 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5