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    Joined: Jan 2009
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    Please forgive this long post, but I am new here and am really hoping I can find some answers to help me to figure out what is going on with my son. He is a bright 9 year old who is currently homeschooled. He is very good at math and reading, but his spelling and writing skills are abysmal. Because we are considering putting him in public school next fall (due to family reasons), I decided to have him tested by a local psychologist to see if he would qualify for the public school gifted program..

    The local psychologist administered a WISC IQ test and the WAIT achievement test and then told me that my son had a composite IQ score of 124 and a GAI of 128 so therefore would not qualify as "gifted" (needs to be 130 here). The problem, however, is that I am afraid they are not factoring in a huge discrepancy in the ranges between some of his scores. His "Verbal Comprehension" segment totaled out at 96% - but would have been much higher had it not been for an extremely low score of 25% in one of the sutbests - "comprehension"- the other scores he received in that same grouping were 99.6% in vocabulary and 99% (similarities). His "Perceptual Reasoning" category was at 94%, "Working Memory" at 86% and "Processing Speed" came in at 66% - mainly due to a relatively low coding score of(50%). They psychologist also tested him using the addtional category of "information" as well - where he scored a 99% - however that score was apparently not used in any of his final IQ calculations.

    My question to you guys is does it seem as though there could be some type of Gifted/learning disability issue in force here? I spoke briefly with the public school guidance counselor about my son's scores but she only said that "not everyone is good at everything", blah, blah, blah. Neither she nor the local psychologist seemed to think it was important to test further. It just seems to me that it is very strange for a child to do so well in most areas and yet to struggle so much in another. To me, the low subtest score in "comprehension" of 25% must indicate something - but the psycholgist seemed baffled. He said he didn't think my son exhibted dianosable signs of any "learning disorder".

    I asked the psychologist if it were possible to substitute the "information" score of 99% with the low "comprehension" score of 25% in order to get a more accurate indication of my son's intelligence had he not had the "comprehension" issue to deal with.If that were done, his IQ would have calculated out to be 140. I felt it might be a more truer prediction of his potential. The psychologist point blank told me that "switching subtests was not ever done". Let me clarify that I didn't want him to "Switch" the scores per se, but to document both sets of results (with and without the low subtest) so that any future school could see the discrepancy and make their decision from there.

    I am SO frustrated! My son has obvious issues with his spelling and writing. He cannot spell to save his soul, and his writing is almost an impossible task for him - especially when it comes to having to write anything "fiction". For some reason he seems to be totally unable to use his imagination. He much prefers to deal with "real" subjects. I know he knows he is "smart", but I am afraid that he is starting to question himself because of his seeming inability to perform in these areas. In fact, last year when he took the IQ test, he was also given the WIAT achievement test - where he scored extremely well - except on the written part of it.He was told to write about his favorite game, but couldn't/wouldn't do it. Apparently he just sat there staring at his paper and pretty much refused to write anything the entire time he was there. The psychologist really irked me afterwards when he told me (right in front of my son, no less!) that he thought my son had strong "passive aggressive" tendancies because of that. Especially, when, in my opinion ds wasn't deliberately trying to be stubborn. I think he was scared of not performing well and knew this was an area in which he just did not excel. Regardless.....

    I will post the results of both his IQ and achievement scores below in case any of you with experience in 2E issues can help me make some sense of what might be going on with him - and if there is something that I should be doing that I am not to help him. (We do have a tutor who comes twice a week to help in writing and spelling - and she, too, has remarked on a possible LD based upon her work with him in these areas. She mentioned "aspbergers", but the psychologist doesn't think that could be possible as ds doesn't exhibit all of the necessary symptoms, apparently). If you've read this far - thank you so much. I truly appreciate any input any of you might have!

    Verbal Comprehension -
    Similarities- Raw Score: 31, Scaled Scores: 17, 17 Percentile Scores: 99%
    Vocabulary- Raw Score: 50 Scaled Scores: 18, 18 Percentile Scores: 99.6%
    Comprehension - Raw Score: 17 Scaled Scores: 8, 8 Percentile Scores: 25%
    (Information) - Raw Score: 23 Scaled Scores: 17,17 Percentile Scores: 99%

    Perceptional Reasoning -
    Block Design - Raw Score: 38 Scaled Score: 13,13 Percentile Scores: 84%
    Picture Concepts Raw Score: 20 Scaled Score: 13,13 Percentile Scores: 84%
    Matrix Reasoning- Raw Score: 26 Scaled Score: 15, 15 Percentile Scores: 95%

    Working Memory -
    Digit Span - Raw Score: 18 Scaled Score: 13, 13, Percentile Scores: 84%
    Letter-Number Seq. Raw Score: 19 Scaled Score: 13, 13 Percentile Scores: 84%

    Processing Speed -
    Coding - Raw Score: 39, Scaled Score: 10, 10 Percentile Scores: 50%
    Symbol Search - Raw Score: 23 Scaled Score: 12, 12 Percentile Scores: 75%

    Sum of Scaled Scores:
    Verbal Comprehension: 43 - Composit Score: 126 Percentile rank: 96%
    Perceptual Reasoning: 41 - Composit Score: 123, Percentile rank: 94% -
    Working Memory: 26 - Composit Score: 116, Percentile Rank: 86%
    Processing Speed: 22 - Composit Score: 106, Percentile Rank 66%
    Full Scale: 132- Composit Score 124, Percentile Rank 95%

    WIAT Achievement Test Scores

    WIAT-II Subtests:
    Word Reading - Predicted: 113, Actual: 116
    Numerical Operations - Predicted: 112, Actual: 116
    Reading Comprehension - Predicted: 113, Actual 124
    Spelling - Predicted: 111, Actual: 85
    Pseudoword Decoding - Predicted: 110, Actual: 103
    Math Reasoning - Predicted: 116, Actual: 133
    Written Expression - Predicted: 111, Actual: Non Scorable (son refused to do this portion of the test)
    Listening Comprehension- Predicted : 114, Actual: 132
    Oral Expression - Predicted 110, Actual: 131

    Composites:
    Reading -
    Word Reading - Subtest Standard Score: 116
    Reading Comprehension - Subtest Standard Score: 124
    Pseudoword Decoding - Subtest Standard Score: 103
    Predicted: 113, Actual: 117
    Mathematics -
    Numerical Operations - Subtest Standard Score: 116
    Math Reasoning - Subtest Standard Score: 133
    Predicted: 115, Actual: 130

    Written Language -
    Spelling - Subtest Standard Score: 85
    Written Expression Subtest Standard Score: �Not Scorable�
    Predicted: 113, Actual: ? (son refused to do this portion of the test)

    Oral Language -
    Listening Comprehension - Subtest standard Score: 132
    Oral Expression - Subtest Standard Score: 131
    Predicted 114, Actual: 140
    Total Composite - ? Predicted: 116




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    Since you're new (Hi! Welcome! smile ), I'll chime in that Dottie is the expert on testing around here. She knows her stuff better than a lot of psychs, I'll wager. Testing--and testing GT kids especially--is her passion. You're in good hands!

    So, yeah, I'd be thinking 2E issue.


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    Originally Posted by DianerLu
    The psychologist really irked me afterwards when he told me (right in front of my son, no less!) that he thought my son had strong "passive aggressive" tendancies because of that. Especially, when, in my opinion ds wasn't deliberately trying to be stubborn.


    Hi DianerLu!
    Welcome. First, I wanted to express my sympathy for whatever family reasons are making you consider putting him in public school. Sometimes things are just beyond our control, and it is essential to do what is best for the whole family, even while trying to minimize the cost to any one member.

    (If on the other hand your family reasons are flack you are getting from family members over homeschooling, post here, we've BTDT on differing perspectives within families. I love your post's length, BTW!)

    If Dottie says that there is potential 2E stuff going on, then I agree that it's time to call in one of the 'top 7' professional testers. If you send me a private message with the parts of the country that you live in or regularly travel to, I'll reccomend a tester who can look at the scores you do have and give professional advice about 2E. 2E is brand new, and plenty of local professionals not only don't get it, but feel free to make obnoxious character-based comments. These kind of comments 'in and of themselves' raise the probability of 2E in my mind - what, afterall is a learning disability, except a mind that works in ways that people typically mis-interpret?


    The comment about the 'strong passive agressive blah blah' makes my blood boil. I wish I could reccomend that you sue that psychologist for 'total lack of professionalism' but I know that that would be a waste of your time and energies. I would however suggest that you report him to what ever statewide agency oversees psychologists in your area.

    You aren't alone in getting this kind of reaction from 'local guys' - and I know that I've never completely recovered my confidence after a comment from one of our local psychologist. I've also never completely recoverd my trust in a profession that I might need!

    Insults that are burned in my memory aside, I think the main question that you have is: Can my child recieve a good education in our local public school? Does he need special accomidation such as a gifted program to do so.

    I would point out that the gifted program isn't the only way to met a child's special educational needs. If your school's gifted program is heavily writing based, then it would be a terrible fit! If the gifted program is all about 'letting bright kids be 'themselves' together while they solve sudoku puzzles' it may also not be worth your energy to pursue.

    If the program is about teaching your child at his readiness level (advanced enough that he is learning new stuff, and fast enough that he isn't pulling out his hair waiting for everyone else) and he clearly can do the work, then it is worth fighting for, and my guess is that once they see what he can do that they would be willing to try a transitional placement.

    Which brings up the achievement scores - Dottie please help me, but aren't they really low for a kid with his Verbal IQ? The real question in my mind for your situation is - what grade should your son re-enter the public school as? Should be placed by age? Pushed ahead a bit overall or in a few areas? Treated as if he had a summer birthday and placed in a lower grade?

    I would hope that achievement test scores would give some guidance for this. Watching him interact with peers socially might also. Spelling I would leave out of the equation.


    Side topic: LOL - I'm assuming that I've made a bouquet of spelling errors in this post, and they aren't typos, dear! I honestly can't look at a word and 'see' that it looks wrong, or hold the correct spelling in my mind. I try to be a living example of the idea that spelling is a 'seperate skill' that isn't related to intelligence in the least. ((But it's still a bit embarrassing!)) Anyway, with spelling check, there are only a few places left where 'spelling counts.' ((Yes, I do frequently mispell things so badly that spell checker is baffled - but that's what friends are for!))

    Anyway - the questions in my mind are - how can you wiggle the school to set things up so that he has a chance of getting his educational needs met?

    AND

    Now that I have these weird scores, which match what I see in real life, - Do I need to persue a possible 2E diagnosis? I would love to see your son get a full workup, particularly if you live near a famous university with a top-notch department

    There was a wonderful thread here on Asperger's recently. Can anyone help me find the link?

    As far as books - Uniquely Gifted comes to mind as the gold standard on 'living with 2E kids' and 'Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis' is the manual of sorts.

    We also have lots of threads on reluctant writers, as this is a fairly typical area that stands out for elementary aged gifties - particularly boys. In particular, I'm wondering how your son's 'non-fiction' writing is - some people have a highly imaginative approach to writing about non-fiction topics. Do you see any sparks there? Or is the whole organizational thing 'too much.' Look up 'Asynchronous Development' for more on this train of thought. Here's one: http://www.sengifted.org/articles_social/Cronin_AsychnronousDevelopmentandSIIntervention.shtml

    Anyway - I'd love to hear more about his life and his strengths. I'm sure that he is a delightful person, and that you are a caring parent.

    Love and More Love,
    Grinity


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    I truly want to thank all of you for taking your time to help me figure some of this out. I am now feeling alot better - I'm no longer emotionally floundering in this bottomless pool all alone - I now at least have a lifeline of sorts with the information you have given which is helping to empower me. Thank all of you from the bottom of my heart!

    Grinity - I live in the panhandle of Florida. I would love to have the name of a "professional tester" in this area who could possibly help us out. I only hope it doesn't turn out to be the same idiot we've already seen - my luck! Becaue of my husband's career we are flexible with traveling - just can't afford a whole lot of $ right now (who can?!).

    As far as to our "family reasons" for putting ds into school... My husband is a pilot who, due to the economy, may be looking at furlough in the upcoming future. If that happens I would probably need to go back to work to help make "ends meet". Not our first choice, but something we may end up having to deal with. We are blessed that our family hasn't given us too much grief about homeschooling. I think it helps that we try to socialize the kids as much as possible. They ds and dd(7)both are on the swim team and play baseball and soccer respectively. In addition to that, they attend a special "blended school" for homeschoolers at the "Gulfarium" (like a mini-seaworld) one day a week.

    The first time I ever entertained the idea of ds possibly being a lot brighter than his peers was when he was just 2 years old and enrolled in a preschool/mothers-day-out program. I remember picking him up from school and having the director of the facility pull me aside and tell me that she felt my son was "exceptionally bright". She said that he already knew things that they were only just beginning to teach their older students at that time (his ABCs, numbers and colors, phone number, address, etc.) That comment planted the seed in my brain and ever since then I've wondered if there were actually anything to it. His studies have always come very easily to him - and he is extremely self-directed and LOVES to learn for the sake of learning . He will pick up a Greek Mythology book or a copy of Ancient World History and read them just for pleasure. Most of his test scores on all of his achievement tests throughout the years (Iowa basic skills and FCAT (Florida Comprehensive) have ranged from the 93rd - 99th percentile.

    He was in that private preschool for a year prior to attending kindergarten, 1st grade and part of 2nd grade at a very small parochial school - so small that second grade encompassed 2nd, 3rd and 4th graders and still only had about 15 students. He did very well in all of those grades. The school did not give IQ tests, but he did take the Iowa Basic Skills achievement Test in Kindergarten, 1st and 2nd grade there prior to my pulling him out and beginning homeschooling. I pulled him out because the school was not able to meet his needs. He was getting left to "stagnate" while they taught to the more "needy" kids. His high scores on those tests (other than in spelling) reinforced my wondering if he were, indeed, in the "gifted" category at all. However because of it's small size, the school there was not really equipped to address this. At the end of homeschooling him in 3rd grade I had him take the Florida Comprehensive Achievement Test (FCAT) where he once again scored well.

    Ds was not an "easy" baby. He screamed ALL the time, it seemed! Pretty much until he was 4 years old. Then he suddenly quieted down and became more "normal". My husband and I used to jokingly say that the "Aliens had finally come and switched him out with a human baby"! We don't know why he was so miserable as a small child - but my take on it has always been that he was a miniature adult born into a baby's body and was totally p.o.'d that he couldn't communicate his needs and desires the way he wanted! Probably too simplistic - but it sure felt like that at the time!

    As far as to whether my son could actually have something like aspergers or a form of it - I honestly don't know. I have a feeling not - yet when I read the descriptions of such children I do note some real similarities. He does occasionally talk in a type of "robotic" voice - although he doesn't do it all the time. He also is rather sensitive to certain textures -both in clothing and in foods. He never liked transitions - but he has gotten better as he's gotten older. I can remember taking him to preschool and him screaming and pitching a fit the whole way that he didn't want to go - then doing the exact same thing in reverse when it was time to pick him up! It was embarrassing! He still doesn't like going places unexpectedly or at the last minute - I need to prep him in advance first so that he can get used to the idea. Then he whines and complains about it until he finally accepts it. And he does get pretty wrapped up in certain topics - maps and his globe being two of them. He will sit and stare at that globe for hours studying it. Hence, he knows a lot about geography. I can remember in 2nd grade his teacher asked the students to keep a journal. Ds mentioned something in it about "Chad" - which the teacher mistakenly assumed was a child he was describing as "no kid in 2nd grade that she knew of had ever heard of that country, let alone exactly where it was!".

    Ever since I can remember he has claimed he wants to be a meteorologist and hasn't deviated from that. He loves learning about and discussing weather phenomena. Ds does have the ability to have two way conversations - although he definitely does tend to dominate - and prefers for them to go "his" way! And he does make eye contact with others when speaking. He also "gets jokes" and has a dry sense of humor. Just a little while ago, for example, the family dog was hesitating to come into the room so I jokingly asked the dog "what he was waiting for - an engraved invitation?". My son overheard me and with a twinkle in his eye responded that if that were the case, I'd "better be sure I had plenty of wax on hand considering how timid our dog is!". I had to think about it at first for a minute before I realized that this was his attempt at humor, as he apparently knows that most formal invitations come shut with sealing wax (something I've never taught him - he must have read about it somewhere as we don't get many of those type invitations around here - ha!). As you can see, though, that type of humor probably isn't recognized among his peers most of his peers. When I read an asperger's description of "mini Professor" - I had to laugh, though, as I have often accused him of being that myself. So - there are some areas which would seem to fit - and others not so much.

    My son is "ambidextrous" - he writes and eats with his left hand but throws balls, etc. with his right. His grandfather (my dad) was the same way. I have always wondered if his difficulty in writing or spelling had anything to do with that. Although he is a wonderful, advanced reader - a couple grade levels above, as I've mentioned before, he is a horrible speller - although strangely enough, he can sometimes spell words backwards that he can't spell forwards? Perhaps that can be related to possible visual/spatial issues?

    As I said before, he seems to get along fairly well with his classmates at the blended school and other activities, but he doesn't have that many close friends - really only one - but that may be because of our living circumstances. There are no other young children who live in our neighborhood. That, combined with homeschooling, doesn't really allow him to rub shoulders with alot of other children other than who is exposed to in his extracurricular activities. He really only has one other boy - who is 11 and considered "gifted" - that he plays with somewhat regularly. As I said before I do think that sometimes he is a bit over most of his peer's heads with his comments, etc. He definitely enjoys the company of older children or adults.

    Hope some of this helps explain our situation to you all a bit better. And thanks again so much for all of your input!

    Diane


    Last edited by DianerLu; 01/24/09 09:57 AM.
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    Have you requested that the school test him? Even as a homeschooler they must do this if a parent requests. You may need to register as a homeschooler to have it done depending on what your state law is. Most schools here use the WJ. This might give you a little more information and would be testing that the school will accept. It might also be the beginning of plan to meet his needs both in areas of giftedness and areas of need.

    My daughter has similar problems with written expression and somewhat lower spelling scores as well. She is 2E, and has gifted aspergers and dysgraphia. You do mention quite a few areas that are consistant. Have you read the article I linked to on the aspergers thread about educational needs of gifted aspergers students? You might find it interesting reading. Also reading on dysgraphia and similar written expression disabilities might give you some more information. The LD online website mentions many. Regardless of why he has trouble in this area they have some good information.

    Oops, crying baby...


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    Thank you all again for all of your invaluable help. I have certainly learned alot by all you have written.

    Ok - I now think I know what I may be dealing with. Something called "Stealth Dyslexia" - anyone ever heard of it? In my quest for more information today, I decided on a whim to email the authors of "The Mislabled Child" and explain what is going on with my son and his scores. I really did not expect to hear back from them, but amazingly, within the half hour, they returned my message. Speaking in generalities, they basically said that from looking at ds's scores what I was most likely dealing with was a twice-exceptional (gifted and learning challenged) child.

    The following are some exerpts from the email he sent me:

    "When we hear that a child is ambidextrous and a bad speller and scores significantly better on the reading comprehension than the decoding and spelling portions of the testing the odds are very strong that such a child fits the profile of "stealth dyslexia" that we discussed in our book, The Mislabeled Child". The very low Comprehension scores generally go along with difficulties with pragmatic language and often social pragmatics generally, and verbally gifted children with this profile are often (inappropriately) given the diagnosis of Asperger Syndrome".

    "If a child with this profile is also highly sensitive, pessimistic, or perfectionistic, they almost always run into emotional problems if forced to do a lot of writing, so it is really critical to get appropriate accommodations. Any 9 year old who shows such a huge gap between oral and written expression will be very frustrated, and if the child is less emotionally resilient, the emotional results can be very severe. Also, they often need help with visual functions and oral reading fluency that are often unexpected."

    "One of the difficulties with children who show such profiles is that their challenges arise from very basic neurological differences, so they span across most of the boundaries that separate different professional disciplines, so there often isn't a single practitioner who "owns" this type of issue. Your son, though, will definitely require a lot of special understanding and help during the coming years of his education, so it important that you do make sure his new school provides appropriate accommodations."

    SO............ I am now breathing a huge sigh of relief that I have not been completely crazy in my assessment that Ds was probably 2E. I just had no clue what the actual LD could be. I had often wondered about possible dyslexia, but because ds has always been a wonderful reader, I assumed that I must be barking up the wrong tree. "Stealth Dyslexia" is at least a jumping off spot for us to start with. I suspect this will be a learning experience for our entire family as well as for any future schools ds will attend. Does anyone know if the state of Florida even considers dyslexia to be an official "LD"?

    Diane

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    Sounds like I really need to read "The Mislabeled Child" to start figuring out DS4...

    Thanks for sharing that e-mail with us, Diane. Eye-opening! And how nice of the author(s) to respond so thoroughly! Kudos to them!


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    Hmmm...

    Does it get in her way? Does it keep her from achieving what is appropriate for her --not for the other kids in the class, but for her?

    If so, then doing something might be called for. I don't know what, of course, but maybe something. If the answer is no, then I agree that there's definitely no need to act.


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    Originally Posted by gratified3
    Should I be doing anything about it? I'm not convinced that there is anything that would help or that I should be doing, but I question it every few months and wonder again.

    If there were something to do, then sure, do it. But some LD's can't be helped, just have to be 'worked around.' I think the key thing in DD's case is to hold in your mind that 'in a way' she may be HG or PG, even though 'in other ways' she is the classic HG + LD = MG equation. If you at least hold that in your mind, then when the opportunity for her to leap ahead in some area that she isn't held back by the LD, you'll be more likely to give that little extra push at just the right moment.

    Love and More Love,
    Grinity


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    Originally Posted by DianerLu
    In my quest for more information today, I decided on a whim to email the authors of "The Mislabled Child" and explain what is going on with my son and his scores. Diane

    These folks are Amazing! The book is amazing! It's going to be tricky to sort out what is really going on, but if you read up on how to help with Stealth Dyslexia AND Aspergers you may find some stratagies from BOTH fields that help in your house.

    DianerLu,
    I one question I have left is 'What kind of homeschooling do you practice?' I'm wondering because I am still thinking that you child may not get into the Gifted Program, or if he does that that may not be enough or the right sort of Gifted Program for his type of giftedness. Do you unschool? Use a boxed curriculum? Is he keeping up with the expected milestones for agemates, falling behind, or wizzing past? Is it across the board or spikey in profile? Isn't it Dr. Phil who says that current behavior is the best guide to future behavior? I'm not a fan of Dr. Phil, but he is memorable. So I'm wondering, what is his 'learning behavior' like?

    I'm also curious about what might happen if you exerimentally 'cranked up the rate' in his strongest subject or two. Even homeschooling parents sometimes underestimate their child's readiness level.

    Whatever you decide - Best Wishes, We are with you!

    Grinity


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