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    Dear Fellow Members,

    I'd appreciate hearing from those of you on this question: In your opinion/experience, can misplacement (lack of any services) cause emotional stress, anxiety, cause emotinal disturbance, thus an ED classification?

    Have you seen emotional disturbance lessen when your child has been placed in the correct setting, on his/her intellectual level with true peers? Thank you. Many of you know I am developing a drama and that our 27 yr. old went through this. Any explanations appreciated. --san

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    Purely opinion, and we never had (or needed) any official diagnosis, but yes, I think poor placement/lack of services can have a drastic enough effect in a child to cause some major emotional issues.

    We saw it with DS7. He's always been a HIGHLY rule-abiding child--think Spock! He tattled on himself if he did anything he even thought MIGHT be wrong! He was not prone to emotional outbursts of any sort, and he was generally cheerful and easy to be with.

    But he hit 1st grade with no challenge and no differentiation, and he began acting out, missing recess, and being angry and belligerent at home. He was clearly an unhappy, troubled child, and he knew exactly what the problem was: school.

    If such a situation went on for a long time, I have no doubt that he would have had major emotional problems. He was a miserable kid. frown

    And, yes, all the bad behavior and emotional disturbance went away the SECOND we pulled him out of that classroom for homeschooling. He had only been in that class for 6 or 8 weeks, so there wasn't a long transition period. He immediately went back to his cooperative, cheerful, easygoing self. There was no doubt about the cause and effect of the change!


    Kriston
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    Well, this very evening, DS12 asked me at the dinner table if I had to do it all over again

    (pulling him from a public school that denied him a gradeskip, and even subject acceleration because 'they can differentiate for every child within the classroom'

    and placing him in a local private school that granted him a full grade skip and a further Math Acceleration less than a month after he joined the school, and was a great match academically, with loads of individualized teacher attention, but DS always feeling he was 'almost there' socially, and being dissapointed over and over again that he never made any headway socially, and even was a bully's vicitm for long months in the second year,

    then having to make the big decision to return to the public school system, with the skip intact, which has been wonderful for him socially, and a welcome relief from some of the 'organizational streching' that he was subjected to at the private school, while still being intellectually interesting.)

    Would I do it all again?
    I tried to explain the 'least-worst option' choice, and he cut in -

    Would I?
    Me: Yes, as hard as it was, you really needed it. Would you?

    DS12: Yes.

    Without going into the possible diagnosises that have been offered us over the years, he was just miserable (on some days) being in elementary without learning much, very stressed all the time and acting out (on many days.) Now he is almost always reasonably behaved at school, willing to try new things, doing his own homework without any parental supervision, sold on the idea that he can be competitive academically, and, best of all, the love of learning is back! He spent last summer getting faster and faster at doing the Rubix Cube, and is now into Chess, both activities that he would have previously shunned for fear of being seen by peers as a 'Nerd.'

    I wouldn't have believed that a summer birthday plus a single gradeskip plus Honor's Math, plus various afterschool activities would have been 'enough' to engage a PG kid, but it does seem to be. Next year he will have the ability to take 'Honors' classes in all subjects, at the local High School. So I am hoping it will be 'enough' for several more years, and I am not fearful.

    I hope this is an 'on track' answer. Life isn't perfect, and the highs and lows are still very intense. Certianly there is a range of individual tolerance for a poor fit classroom. Some kids are easy-going by nature, or trusting by nature, or know how to self-differentiate at a young age. But a child who is not appreciated OR challenged at school is at least 'at risk' for being damaged at school. Moving a child to a setting where they can flourish can be part of the solution. Of course there were lots and lots of other things I did that helped as well, joining DYS program, gifted summer camps, afterschooling, setting up playdates with other 'like-minded' boys, telling lots of stories at the dinner table about other what was going on in the lives of the families I read about on line, but without the gradeskip, I don't see him being anywhere near as satisfied with himself and his life as he is now.

    Thanks for asking and caring,
    Grinity




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    Thank you, Kriston and Grinity. You've shared a lot. I had an uncomfortable experience, yesterday. My friend's daughter is a special ed teacher in our district, a monied one that's considered "state of the art," so to speak. I needed to ask her a question about teacher contracts and in doing so, stated the premise of my play. Although I knew her personality is rigid, I was quite taken aback by her umbrage at my statement that "when gifted kids are misplaced, this can cause an emotinally disturbed state." She said, "I take offense that you're saying a teacher can cause a child to be emotionally disturbed." I then explained that I wasn't blaming teachers but that it was administrative. She also stated that IQ was overrated in the assessment process, didn't mean much, and that social skills were just as important (we've all heard this, and of course they are.) She said that many so-called gifted kids level out by 3rd grade. I replied that it seems that way for many; they've merely given up, resigned themselves to their placement, and have become underachievers. She also pointed to inconsistency in abilities. I began to point out how asynchrony is basic to giftedness, anyway. Well, I felt bad afterward, because I never meant to get raked over the coals or drawn into a debate. I know from Dr. Ruf that g.kids can have emotional problems from misplacement. So, my friend's daughter asserted that these kids had emotionally disturbed components before the misplacement. What do you think? Thank you, friends. I'm still sticking with my drama's premise though the work itself will be subject to a professional script consultant and NYC peers.-San

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    San,
    There is so much data out there to back up the idea that highly gifted kids will act out when they are educationally unchallenged and academically misplaced. I have been collecting just such data, so I will try to find all of my bookmarks for you. Here are a quick few that I can find immediately.

    http://www.hoagiesgifted.com/underserved.htm

    http://www.giftedkids.ie/08%20April%20Newsletter.pdf
    (scroll down until you get to the Falling By the Wayside article)

    http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10241.aspx
    Quote
    Also damaging is when adults ignore high level ability and focus instead on perceived emotional immaturity, behaviour problems or social immaturity. Underestimation of ability can result in a rapid decline in self-esteem and consequently self-confidence.

    http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10065.aspx
    Quote
    Even more damage can result when adults ignore a child's high level ability and focus instead of weaknesses in areas of slower development. A child's giftedness may even go unnoticed, eclipsed by behavior problems, physical weakness, or social immaturity. Whitmore (1980) gives the example of Bobby, with an IQ of 153, who spent a second year in the first grade as a result of his disruptive behavior and his failure to complete daily classroom work. A teacher's underestimate of a child's ability can trigger a rapid decline in self-esteem. Pringle (1970) found, for example, that most of the 103 bright children brought to a clinic because of general maladjustment had teachers who underestimated their ability. The most frequent symptom presented by these able misfits was a lack of confidence.

    And here is an interesting article on how gifted kids differ emotionally from ND kids. It is called the funnel theory. I'm not completely sold on it, and it seems a little bit simplistic. But it is a great place to start when thinking about the emotional needs of gifted kids.
    http://www.shulamit.info/funnel.htm

    Hope this helps some. I will try to look up other references and post them later.

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    SENG would be helpful, too, I'm sure. But I think you said before that you were aware of that organization, right?


    Kriston
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    San,

    Let's accept the premise about social skills being important, but let's not accept the unspoken assertion within the argument the teacher makes - that age-peer interaction is the best way to build social skills.

    How do we make connections with others? There has to be mutual ground.

    How can a 10 year old kid develop social skills when he is intellectually ready for high school but is in a 5th grade classroom? Or a 7 year old who is ready for middle school but is in 2d grade?

    What is there for the GT kid to talk about with her age-peers if she is reading the Wall Street Journal every morning and listens to the Presidential News Conference on the radio on the way to school and then gets to school and her peers in 6th grade are talking about their dolls?

    She wants to discuss Haikus and they want to discuss Hannah's Hair Do.

    This is a sure recipe for social isolation and the stunting of a child's development.

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    Thank you, also, Ebeth and Austin. This teacher, daughter of my dear friend, is 40 yr. old and had gifted ed. training 19 yrs. ago. In NJ, part of a spec. ed's major is to take this. I don't know how extensive such training was/is in NJ colleges. Well, I had really felt that my hand was slapped, had felt badly though we both had kept it cool, felt rather irritated, that I was a troublemaking playwright and one of those fussy parents she refers to. As I went to bed last night, I was even more affirmed, "I will write what has been happening to so many gifted kids across our country, regardless of who agrees with the premise." Okay, I'm over it. Thanks. I will print this thread out as a source when it's done. You've been very helpful. ---San

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    Originally Posted by san54
    Thank you, also, Ebeth and Austin. This teacher, daughter of my dear friend, is 40 yr. old and had gifted ed. training 19 yrs. ago. In NJ, part of a spec. ed's major is to take this. I don't know how extensive such training was/is in NJ colleges. Well, I had really felt that my hand was slapped, had felt badly though we both had kept it cool, felt rather irritated, that I was a troublemaking playwright and one of those fussy parents she refers to. As I went to bed last night, I was even more affirmed, "I will write what has been happening to so many gifted kids across our country, regardless of who agrees with the premise." Okay, I'm over it. Thanks. I will print this thread out as a source when it's done. You've been very helpful. ---San


    I think you got a firsthand example of how hurtful it can be when a teacher denies giftedness(they all even out by 3rd) and denies a teacher's influence on a child's mental wellbeing(does she also think a teacher can't influence a child's mental wellbeing for the better?).

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    That's a very good question to ask, OHG!

    I think you hit on a very good path to counter the friend's argument: if teachers cannot have a negative effect on a child's emotional well being, then they also cannot have a positive effect.


    Kriston
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    [quote=san54]Dear Fellow Members,

    I'd appreciate hearing from those of you on this question: In your opinion/experience, can misplacement (lack of any services) cause emotional stress, anxiety, cause emotinal disturbance, thus an ED classification?

    Have you seen emotional disturbance lessen when your child has been placed in the correct setting, on his/her intellectual level with true peers? Thank you. [quote=san54]


    YES!!
    I can tell you that my dd7 was in a private school for K4 and about 3 months of K5. She went in knowing the majority of the curiculum, but because she was "active" she was assumed to be ADHD and "low average". She ended up hitting and allegedly biting out of frustration. This school recommended intensive psychotherapy. We went to one session and the psychologist recommended moving her ASAP or getting her some acceleration, particularly in reading.

    We moved her to a public school where they acelerated her in reading and allowed her to read at "rest time", etc. No more behavior issues!!!

    She is now in 1st grade and doing well with a great teacher that seems to "get her". Had we attempted to stay at the private school, I fear what would have happened with dd.

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    Another mom here who has her DS6 in counseling so he can deal with a poor school situation and his increasing frustration. Right now there are not any other options (besides homeschooling-- but I just can't make that sacrifice to my own life right now) but we are in the process of applying to a new private school for GT children that will open next fall.

    When my son in engaged in appropriate work and when he attended a few weeks of a summer camp for GT children these same behaviors that now require counseling were not present at all.


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    Originally Posted by Kriston
    That's a very good question to ask, OHG!

    I think you hit on a very good path to counter the friend's argument: if teachers cannot have a negative effect on a child's emotional well being, then they also cannot have a positive effect.

    If they level out by the 3rd grade, then why don't they level out emotionally, too?


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    I would caution anyone who would approach the school for accomodations based on this not to go it alone. I would recommend first consulting with a child psychologist who is experienced with issues of HG/PG.

    I would obtain an educational advocate to make sure the laws locally will help not hinder your efforts. Also, this person may have professional experience to share about how similar efforts were received by the school.

    Be prepared for the school to possibly assert that the emotional problems are intrinsic to the child, even the cause of the home situation and the school has not caused any of it.

    Personally, I would be very careful asserting anything like this to any school administrator/teacher unless I was already ahead of the game in planning and ready for things to possible become adversarial. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

    smile

    good luck.

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    for sure with my 6th grader and it is documented in articles I have found on hoagies about the social emotional risks. It does not give diagnossi in the article but does discuss it. we ended up taking our son out of district and having him at a great montessori school for 4 years until we could feel comfortable that the middle school where there was a half day gifted program, would meet his needs. You could say he needs to be with his peers to feel comfortable. My kid was getting bulued in the mixed classes and they did not see that he was a target due to his 2E profile.

    It is true but it is very hard to make progress in that area unless youhave expamples of inappropriate behavior that is being done to him by teachers or other students that you can prove. We chose to take him out of the school, I went back to work to afford the tution .... It was worth it since they will not easily agree to being the cause.

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    Originally Posted by san54
    an emotinally disturbed state

    Hi San,
    I'm wondering if you had said that a poor placement makes a kid sad and stressed if she would have been so defensive.

    I mean, what, exactly is an 'emotionally disturbed state," anyway?

    To me, the fact that she believes that most kids even out by 3rd grade, tells me that she can't see the color 'Gifted.' If she can't see it, then she it doesn't exist for her. No wonder the IQ tests seem meaningless.

    Sad that things went that way. Reminds me of 25 years ago hearing folks say: "Where are the female Mozarts and Einstiens? Of course Males are smarter than Females." That really is how the world looked within my lifetime.
    ((shrugs))
    grinity


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    As for emotionally disturbed behavior, I find the "blame the victim" attitude very upsetting, which is what happened to us 15 yrs. ago. It hurts to have one's parenting under suspicion. We were the most nurturing family we could be. The principal and team knew his iq was 153, that he scored in the 98th percentile, was underachieving for report card grades, yet not one professional offered to give him accelerated work or to change anything they were dong. He was merely viewed as an inconvenience. The principal ran the gifted program and said only kids who did homework were allowed in it. An ED classification was given to our son because he was hiding under his desk in the 3rd grade, having panic attacks with shaking, hated school up through 8th grade, and threw fits at home over school, and began to fear contamination and peer poisoning. Once in the sci tech high school, these symptoms went away. The "blame the victim" attitude was what I seemed to be getting from this teacher(not my son's.) Thank you. All answers have been so helpful. --San

    Last edited by san54; 12/30/08 04:54 PM.
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    Quote
    he was hiding under his desk in the 3rd grade, having panic attacks with shaking, hated school up through 8th grade, and threw fits at home over school, and began to fear contamination and peer poisoning.
    The fear of contamination and peer poisoning made me think of this story I read recently.

    School children have tried to poison their classmate at a primary school in Hamburg because she was too smart, daily Express reported this week.

    http://www.thelocal.de/society/20081218-16221.html

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    Inky, this is horrible but thank you for sharing this. I remember reading that gifted children often worry about the world's woes and possess high sensitivity. This was true in our son's case...worrying about global miseries. I'm sure many in this forum have experienced this sensitivity. - San

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    Yeah!
    In first grade there was a presentation about the Ozone Layer that terrified DS12 for many years. We didn't even know until 3 years later when treating the dog's ear's with hydrogen peroxide. DS started sobbing and pleading with us not to destroy the ozone layer. Breaks my heart to think how frightened he had been for 3 years without even really getting the details right.

    Then there is the idea that maybe he's perfectly correct to be worried, and I'm crazy to 'keep it on the back burner.'

    Smiles,
    Grinity


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