Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy WPPSI-III - Are results accurate?

I would like to hear from professionals or parents that have had experience with the WPPSI-III.
My child took this test at age 4 and had a Full Scale IQ score of 146. His Verbal IQ was 145 and is Performance IQ was 146. This was the 99.9th percentile and the highest score his tester had seen on this particular test. I understand 160 is the absolute highest you can go. He scored 17 or higher in 5 of the subsets. I was told that my child more than likely experienced the "ceiling effect" of this test and for a more accurate IQ number we should test him on the older SB LM. We were not inclined to do this since the 146 was well above the 130 he needed to get into a gifted private school.

Then we became interested in applying to the Davidson Young Scholars program. We were told that in order to be accepted he needed a 150 on the WPPSI-III. The other Weschler tests only require a 145 in one area. They told me the reason for this is:
"Although lower scores fall into the 99.9th percentile, we require a score of 150 on the Full Scale, Verbal, or Performance sections of the WPPSI-III because scores tend to be inflated on this test. The experts we consulted believe 150 is a better indicator of the population we strive to serve."

This is in direct contradiction to what I have been told about the "ceiling effect". It is aldo odd that Davidson would accept someone who may get a 150 on one part of the test but could have a significantly lower full score than my child. Anyone who has more information on what research the "experts" Davidson consulted would be very helpful. Is it worth retesting my son with another acceptable test? What test would that be at 4 1/2?
Thanks

I've been wondering the same thing. My son scored 149 on the WPPSI-III at 4 1/2. I guess you could use the SB-5 which has norms starting at age 2. I've sort of decided to wait until DS is older and then have him retested with the WISC-IV. They can't join the DYS program until they're 5yrs. old anyway.

Did your son's psychologist discuss the ceiling issues with you?

I wonder if anyone else finds it interesting that even at the Davidson Institute, a place specifically geared for profoundly gifted children, age becomes a barrier to acceptance. My 4 year old is reading at a 5th grade level, doing math at a 3rd grade level and most comfortable with children twice his age or older. Why should children be limited by age?

Isn't this the very problem we have with a formal education?
My child can not begin school because of age. Intelligence and ability seem to be completely irrelevant.

She only discussed ceiling issues in a very vague way. I don't think she is very familiar with these issues. DS scored a 19 on one subtest and 18's on three others.

I understand how you feel about the age restrictions on school. DS will be repeating Kindergarten in the fall because he is not old enough to be enrolled in first grade. He went to K last year at a private school, but he makes the age cutoff for public K this fall by just 2 weeks. In our state, early entrants to first grade must be at least 5 years old. DS will not be 5 until the end of November.

Have you considered homeschooling?

We are very fortunate that there is a small, private school for the gifted here. It is very expensive though and no scholarships are available until 5th grade.

My child misses the kindergarten cutoff here by 5 weeks. There are no provisions in this state for early entrance. He would have to remain in preschool this year, kindergarten next year, etc. The gifted school is allowing acceleration and he is beginning 1st grade while still 4. Although we are still concerened that 1st grade is not enough of an acceleration. If we don't already feel the need to lie to others about what grade he is entering for fear of all the negative comments about socialization, etc.

We are thrilled that a school wants to work with us but he learns at such a remarkable pace that while that may have been the best placement when he was interviewed in March, he has now surpassed the curriculum in most all subjects and will be bored in 1st grade, too. We struggle everyday with what is right because we know it will be frowned on, even at a school that purports to cater to the gifted child's needs, to be in second grade while the other students are 3-4 years older. At the same time, why pay the close to $20,000 a year to accelerate at all if the placement won't truly challenge our child. We have read so much about children being bored and losing their wonderful spirit. Up until now the sky has been the limit on learning in our home. Ultimately homeschool might be the only way to achieve this.
We plan on meeting with the school next week to make our pitch for second grade.


That is too bad that your son needs to repeat Kindergarten. I'm sure you have many of the same concerns we do about keeping them engaged and excited to learn. My stress level is quite high now that the new year is upon us. I empathize with all those parents who have gone down this path before me and sometimes with multiple children!!!

I don�t envy anyone with highly advanced children starting out in K or 1st grade in an inflexible school environment. I also resent our personal situation where we are forced to pay for our children�s education because our public district mucked things up so badly for our daughter. I am extremely sympathetic to parents who are unable to pay for a more appropriate education and empathetic With parents who are unable to pay $20,000 for an elementary level education.

Cathy and Zia,

You are beginning a long hard road. It would be great if your children become Davidson Young Scholars, but that is not the �end all� solution to your children�s needs. IMO, your most pressing issue is appropriate school placement right now. Fall B-days are certainly a problem for gifted kids. Establishing appropriate grade placement from the beginning will greatly minimize any corrections that may be needed in the future. If I understand correctly, each of your children are offered one grade early entrance with out the �fight�. If you can imagine, that is already better than some other districts.

I would suggest having your children tested RIGHT NOW on the SB-5 (may be lower than current scores(or not), but possibly more meaningful) and an individual achievement test by a psychologist experienced with gifted children. If the results support your current position, do anything you can to place them where they need to be, even if it means moving them after the first three weeks. If the SB-5 doesn�t meet the Davidson threshold, re-test later on the WISC-IV to see if they qualify for the Young Scholars program.

High I.Q. at a very young age demonstrates potential and achievement. Whether right or wrong, the mainstream idea of intelligence becomes more correlated to achievement only as the child becomes older. Academic challenge commensurate to that early I.Q. will help ensure development of their potential better than affiliation with any group. Hopefully, your children get both!



http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm

Hi Zia's Mom,
Welcome!
I would apply to the YSP as soon as he turns 5, with those scores. If they need more, they will ask for it. The posted specs tend to be a bit higher than what they accept in real life, if you can demonstrate that he is working well beyond his grade level. I would start collecting "portfolio" materials now, camcorder type stuff.

IQ testing is usually a bit less accurate before age 5 in general, and the YSP staff has a tremendous amount of experience with PG and near PG experience. Also keep in mind that there are no agreed upon definitions of Giftedness or of Profound Giftedness. They do know what they are talking about. There are 1000 plus YSP families. We Moms are all (mostly all? Not Dottie, surely.) suspisious, fearful, hypercritical and hyperalert - a real PIA population. We are also warm, caring, and delightfully intelligent. ((shrug - well that shoe fits me, eh?))And it's no wonder with the treatment most of us grew up with, and have seen our children suffer through. Have you noticed how long your kid's memory is for slights?

Anyway, it's important to keep in mind what the YSP can and can't do for you.
Can't - make your schools behave
Can - introduce you to other Parents who have lived through similar stuff, and have sympathy and advice. With better confidentiality than you get here.
Can't - make your child behave (humor alert)
Can - offer Parent Seminars with some of the "big" names to help you figure you kid.

You can get lots and lots of the benifit from posting here, and getting the feedback of other Parents, but here you have to be more careful to obscure the detail, and get occasionl spam. I don't know if you will eventually get to join the YSP, but I do know that even if you do, there will always be tons of families who "just miss" and need the information as much as any of us. Is it fair? No. It's a total drag. But how much generosity do you want out of folks who are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts? The good news is that I will do my personal best to make sure that you get the best of YSP right here. I don't have the money to start a program for HG kids, but I have eyes and ears and a mind and I'm not afraid to use them.

Good luck with your attempt to place into 2nd grade. I think your child will do well, although for some kids the physical act of handwriting puts a cramp on things a bit. Many kids do well socially with radical acceleration, so don't let that worry you. And the business about out growing the planned program is very typical for PG kids. Have you read Ruf's "Losing our Minds" book? You can get an estimate in the back for how long it will take you child to get through elementary education. Of course if you find that 2nd grade is a good fit, you may be able to transfer back to the pubilc schools as a 3rd grader next year and save the money.

I'm glad that you are open to home schooling. Remember that the largest cost of school isn't the money that you pay any particular year, but the human cost of being in a "bad fit" environment is too much for some children to handle. Some have bad behavior in the classroom and collect misdiagnosis, some mask their talent and grow up misunderstanding themselves and living lives that don't fit them like an outgrown sweater.

Some people don't have choices, but if you do have them, do your best to make them wisely. It sounds like you are well on your way.

Best Wishes, and let us know how it goes with School,
Trinity

BTW -
It is a good sign that the tester was interested in using SB LM, and means that they have some idea what they are doing, but don't go along with it. Use the SB-V with the gifted index. If your psychologist can't do that, find one who can, if indeed you are going for more testing. I find that schools don't usually understand the difference between 130 and 145 and 160.
Trinity

Do any of you know Davidson's rationale for using the FSIQ rather than the GAI on Wechsler tests? It seems a little inconsistent of them.

I understand that they have to have some sort of cutoff. I think it would be good, though, if they explained their logic.

Also, the lower age limit used to be 4. Why not offer support to families when their children are 4 and are starting school? This tends to be a very difficult time for people.

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful responses.

There is so much to learn and many forks in the road.
We will retest achievement and if results warrant it push for another grade skip. I am not going to retest IQ until at least six.

I will apply to the YS program with what I have and if that is not enough, there are other more important things to focus on, as a number of you so articulately pointed out.

Looking forward to more interesting discussions in the future.

Thanks Dottie, I appreciate the comments.

That's the spirit Zia's Mom!

Next question is - what kind of achievement test. The individually administered ones that are usually given with the IQ test have one type of drawback, and the group ones given at school have another type of drawback. Short answer - use the ones from the school. Here's why:

Tests such as Woodck-Johnson Achievement don't really give placement information. The problem with WJ achievement, is that they only ask a few questions from each level. The other problem is that the grade level equavalent that they give you, amount to something like: The children who would do as well as your child on this first grade test are in the 5th grade. It doesn't mean your child could do well on 5th grade work, only that they did very well indeed on the first grade material. ((Dottie help me if I'm off on this, ok?))


Talk to your school and see what they would want for a placement test. If there is "end of year" 1st grade material they can test him on, or see the work he does at home in his own handwriting that is likely to carry more weight. Now perhaps you can get the school to test him using whatever standardized test they use for 2nd graders, then they can see your child more clearly. Our school uses the ERBs, which are common for private schools. What are the potential problems with the ERBs and other group standardised tests?
1) if they are created for age mates, the may score poorly due to:
a) fell asleep
b) didn't settle down and take it seriously
c) overthinking the whole thing "It can't be this simple, there must be a trick."
2) if they are above level, (this is the best) the child with perfectionism issues may freak out that there are math symbols that they haven't seen before. If a parent explaines that the test is for many different ages of kid and has stuff that the child couldn't possibly know, and that they are supposed to guess, this may help. If the parent afterschool in advance (the dreaded hothoused child) this will make it easier for the school to recognise what's in front of them. I do reccomend this hot housing if:
a) time permits
b) it's fun for all involved
because it helps the school understand what they have. Even my wonderful new school didn't seem to understand the difference between missing easy Math questions because he had never seen the Metric System before and missing hard Math questions because he wasn't ready to learn Algebra quite yet. You can't count on the school really looking at the wrong answers and trying to understand where the child went wrong. The school wants "correct" answers to simplify their decision making. That's why the best placement is to give real grade level work and see if the child knows it or can learn it easily.

Remember that you can start first grade in September, and go to Second grade in October or November. He can take some classes with the first grade and some with second. He can do mornings in 2nd and afternoons in first. It only matters that he is getting his needs met 60% of the time, and that you are working towards a better fit. If he goes off to school glowing with happiness, well you know that something good is happening there.

((Ramble Alert:)) I was so pleased to see that after the grade skip, the end of year ERB testing revealed that DS was comfortably over the 50% score for kids in private school, but not "ceilinged out" by any means. So the idea is that if the teachers forget, or don't know, that he is gradeskipped, then they will "feel" like they have a socially immature kid who can easily get "B" if he follows directions, and if he streches himself, then he should be able to get "A"s in all his subjects. This is exactly what DH, DS and I want! It's not perfect, and DS will likely spoil the illusion from time to time by carrying around books like "The Universe in a Nutshell," (he looks at the pictures, and reads some of it) but I am so grateful to have it! It is good enough, and that is wonderful.

Sorry for the long post, but ((cheers!! The crowd goes wild)) good for you for being willing to accept the social put downs in order to do what is right for your child!

We dodge that "what grade is he in" questions all the time:
Other Mom: "So what grade is he in?"
Me: "Have you seen that new Simpson's Movie? I never laughed so hard."
Other Mom: "I can't believe they showed Bart's ....."

so you see, no need to answer friendly questions you don't want to answer. The weirdest was when a new friend cornered me and said that I just "had" to get my DS tested because he was seriously precosious. That I just "had" to do something for him because he wasn't getting challenged as a 5th grader in her son's very fine prep school. She was having middle-of-the-nights worry about my kid! I hadn't shared much of our struggle, but then I did, and we both cried and it was very nice, and it really helped me have the nerve to ask for the gradeskip. To me that is the most amazing, when the Mom of a same-age bright kid will say, "Your child is much different than mine, you must do something for him!" I know for some of the parents here, there kids collect lots of notice for being "smart" but somehow my DS only strikes most normal folks as "hard to understand." My friends who are gifted get it right away, but lots of people don't. Very strange.

Ok, now I have really really gone on long enough.
Best Wishes,
Trinity

Thanks Dottie!
Trin

Finger Licken' Good Points, CFK! (DS and DH are big KFC fans.)
Even when things went badly for my DS11 in school, he often learned important lessons that I wouldn't have figured out how to provide him with an opportunity to learn. He started playing Trombone, as a 4th grader, and loved the chance to work with a group of kids. Unfortunatly, for us, the emotional price tag at the public school was too high, so now we have the pain in the pocket at private school.

Wow are you lucky that the one who want's to grade leap and bound is the older of the two! Nice how that worked out. Have you bumped into any ideas for "gap year" programs for your DS10 when he finishes high school level education? There is a email list about early college on the YSP program that might be helpful for you if you can get in to YSP. One of our local friends does college classes and middle and high school classes all mixed together. Yes, his mom and grandma do lots of the driving, but he seems happy. When his mom was introducing herself to a teen, I overheard her say, "So, what gradeS are you in?" as naturally as you could want. I've also heard stories of a boy who went to Community College during Middle school, and then started High School with his age mates, taking a lot of electives. He didn't say so, but I got the distinct impression that he had become intersted in exploring dating. I think that what is so wonderful about parenting these kids it that once they set their mind to something...step back and enjoy the view.

Smiles,
Trinity

Wow - that sounds wonderful! I'll bet that they will even let him take EPGY online high school from the school building so he can still do art and music during the day. Terrific that your employer pays for private schooling - I wish more did. Some high schools are more rigerous than community college classes. Perhaps by the time your DS10 gets through the 10th grade some new opportunities and interests will have developed.

Interesting that your private school only goes up to 10th grade, is that common in your area? I've never seen it.
Smiles,
Trin

These types of questions would probably be better received from a member. I have emailed questions to the DI before, and their reply is simply that they have determined that these are the kids they want to serve. They don't really give me an explanation.

Cathy

Need advice on combatting the socialization argument for radical grade acceleration!!

As I mentioned in my earlier post, we went ahead and gave our soon to be 5 year old a second achievement test (the first was 6 months ago)- we gave him the WIAT II - (the psychologist's suggestion)
The test results more than supported our intuition that our child needs to be in at least second grade to be academically challenged.
We feel comfortable making most all arguments accept the social ones although he is a social animal and is comfortable in most all social situations.

We hear so much about bullying. Is this a real concern?
Our son has been playing on the chess circuit for the past 6 months and spends lots of time with older children. They are all so respectful and kind to him. Is this just chess kids? Am I naive on this one?

Has anyone had their child accelerated academically but taken out of the classroom when doing sports, music, etc with other children?

What are some practical ways to address the handwriting issue? Has anyone successfully convinced the school to let the child type?

Hi Zia's Mom,
So many ideas in one little post. I'll try to take them all in, but you may want to repost several smaller ideas, ok?

Need advice on combatting the socialization argument for radical grade acceleration!!

***Is anyone making the socialization argument at this time? It�s pretty clear from M. Gross�s work that for kids who need radicle acceleration, that RA is their only hope of normal, for the individual child, socialization. PG kids have an �alternate path of development� � normal, but different from the norm. ((That�s a Trinity-ism!)) They are many ages at the same time.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, we went ahead and gave our soon to be 5 year old a second achievement test (the first was 6 months ago)- we gave him the WIAT II - (the psychologist's suggestion)
The test results more than supported our intuition that our child needs to be in at least second grade to be academically challenged.

***What a relief to have the numbers and your experience of your child, �line up.� I hope you are going ahead with your application to YSP.

We feel comfortable making most all arguments accept the social ones although he is a social animal and is comfortable in most all social situations.

***I think that the best position to take is that you are the parents, and will continue to monitor his social growth, and be responsible for that part of his life. Really, for many, many, PG children, if their educational needs aren�t being met, then they are going to be too unhappy to do much social growth. So it�s not that you are sacrificing one for the other, it�s that you are trying to ensure that your son�s educational needs are met in school so that he can �be himself� and play after school. Really we are all humans, trying to make decisions that will have outcomes that none of us will be in control of. All we can do is deal with the matters at hand, and be willing to change if corrections are needed. Still you are the parents, and have to be the ones to be responsible for his Character Development.

We hear so much about bullying. Is this a real concern?

***Bullying can happen anywhere, with any group of people. I have no reason to think that it would be better or worse with his agemates, age+1 year kids, age+2 year kids, teachers, parents, sibling� What makes the difference is how the other humans deal with it. Bullying doesn�t have to be tolerated, and I would look for a school with a clear and successful bullying policy.
As an aside � My DS complains that his school is full of �goody2shoes� who won�t let kids get away with playing games during class, or anything else, and that they hand out detention for stupid stuff, like wearing white socks on �Formal Dress Friday� when they are supposed to wear dark socks. I was so happy to hear this. I hope it continues. We cheered last year when he came home with his first detention notification, and it was for wearing white socks on Friday. My kid needs to understand that no shenanigans will be tolerated, and he needs clear guidance on what the rules are. I hope this helps create an atmosphere were Bullying is going to be discouraged. The best way to know is to ask a few kids who attend the school.



Our son has been playing on the chess circuit for the past 6 months and spends lots of time with older children. They are all so respectful and kind to him. Is this just chess kids? Am I naive on this one?

***Yes, It would be Na�ve to judge one group of kids based on another group.

Has anyone had their child accelerated academically but taken out of the classroom when doing sports, music, etc with other children?

***Certainly it�s a good idea to do afterschool sports and/or religious or scouts with agemates. Many kids have their �specials� with agemates, or whatever group best fits their schedule and their skills. Karen Roger�s Re-forming Gifted Education is the must read for the nuts and bolts of acceleration. Think �dual-citizenship� or �multiple radical subject accelerations.�

What are some practical ways to address the handwriting issue? Has anyone successfully convinced the school to let the child type?

***This is a wonderful topic, and deserves it�s own thread. I�ll start one, ok?
I�m so excited for you. I agree with Dottie, that it doesn�t have to be right now, or all at once. The best is to have a school community that is willing to �get it right� for your child. In the end, homeschooling, or partial homeschooling may still be the best alternative.

Love and More Love,
Trinity

Thanks, Dottie! That does help.

Cathy

Zia�s mom,

Almost five years and starting 2nd grade is defiantly a hard sell.

What does your son�s pre-school teacher think would be an appropriate placement? IF, his past teacher supports the radical acceleration, you might ask for a recommendation.

Is he offered 1st grade placement at the private gifted school that you mentioned earlier?
Are there criteria for admittance that ensure the other children are also some level of gifted? If so, I would imagine the first grade curriculum is already minimally at a 2nd grade level. Will they offer subject acceleration in addition to gifted 1st grade placement?

As others have stated, given his age, and required skills such as handwriting, you may wish to proceed in increments. I would definitely suggest the next skip occur before 5th grade if possible.

I am not against grade acceleration, actually am probably for one but...here are some examples from a friend of mine who accelerated his son because they had no other options. The boy skipped first grade. No problems till he hit middle school - seventh and eight grade. He was still on top of his class academically,but looked very small and underweight compared to classmates, especially girls. This lasted about four years, started looking more like his classmates around 10 grade. Then came the driver permit issue. For some reason it was torturing to him that he couldn't drive while all his friends did.
He is now a a senior at an IB school. He is not a shining star any more, had a bout of depression requiring medication.
Now, I am not saying that this is all happening because he was accelerated. This has most likely nothing to do with acceleration, but that fact that he was accelerated DID NOT help his situation. Every case is different. But while considering grade skip we should not forget that our 5-10 year olds will be young men and women sooner than we think.
Grade skip does not put our kids with smarter ones, it puts them together with older ones. This is an important point to consider.
Ania

Okay, lots more good information to digest.
My initial thoughts on reading everyone's responses:
1. I see the value in starting new threads..I lost this one for a while, and only saw the new handwriting one.
2. I feel much better equipped to answer concerns over bullying and social issues. I do agree with many of you that parents need to stay very in tuned to these issues.
3. I am a little confused on what seems to be a majority opinion on possibly "one skip at a time" or "baby steps". This is at the heart of our angst over starting school. My premise is this, and perhaps I am wrong: Why spend the huge amount of money on a private, gifted school so he can "formally" begin his education opposed to preschool where he would be if we kept him in the public school system, if the placement is not correct?

Is it any better to be unchallenged in 1st grade then it is in pre-school or kindergarten? If a child already knows all the material, isn't the only option at that point to either send them strictly for socialization and not academics or home school?
I ask this with all sincerity. I respect your collective experiences in areas we are just beginning to explore.

I am fearful that if we don't provide a challenging environment his incredible spark and quest for knowledge will be extinguished like so many other gifted children I have read about.

To answer some questions posed earlier - the school has already agreed, in fact, suggested the 1st grade placement. They are a gifted school but their criterion is a bit more relaxed than the public school gifted program. You need a score of 130 on an IQ test in any of the one areas, your full score does not need be 130. Also, they have a preschool and 75% of the students in preschool, which is does not require IQ scores for entry, are accepted into the regular school.

They do say that their curriculum is one year ahead of the public school. We have taken that into account when looking at what curriculum our son is ready for and the achievement tests place him there as well.

Hi Zia's Mom!
I like how well you summed up the question - Is it better to be unchallenged with a 3 year accleration (1st grade) than unchallenged in preschool?
(Am I counting correctly if you add a year due to the school being one year ahead curriculum-wise?)

It is much better! Most classrooms have about at least a 3 year spread in terms of "readiness level" and differention. Many of us observe that "in-class" enrichment is realistic when one is with in 2 years of "where they should be." I'm not saying that 2nd is bad for your son, just that you are not at risk for his "de-sparking" by keeping him in 1st for a few months to see how it goes for him. School is quite different from learning. I would like to see your school offer you a flexible "combination" approach, where he has "one from column A, one from Column B and 2 from Column C" choices amoung all of his ages.

You have to ask yourself if you are willing to be flexible, and perhaps fail, versus going slower and adjusting as you see the need. Your job is to monitor and love. You will know if the spark is fading. Homeschooling is the only "safe" alternative in this regard, but if you want to play the school game, then give it your best shot, put together the best plan you can, and let the experiment run! There are always unexpected benifits from a good school with good teachers. Expect to make corrections because life just isn't as simple as "take a test, be assigned to a grade." - I wish it were. Ask the school how they would feel about letting him tape record his written product 30% of the time. Their response will indicate if they "get" his intellectual/abstract reasoning needs, or if they want each child to be "a 2nd grader" or "a 1st grader."

Ask them what signs they look for to know if a child is at a proper "readiness level."

10 WPM is terrific "for his age" - but it still isn't "the real deal" in terms of having a way to communicate. (yet)

Has he memorised his times tables?

You have to remember that since most children his age are not much able to do "abstract thought" you son will not be appreciated for his ability to do so. He is in the position of the slowest runner in a school, he happens to be able to fly, but that's not considered a big deal, because there are not flying races or flying lessons, flying isn't something that people are thought to be able to do. ((BTW - this isn't true for all teachers or all school, but be cautious)) And it must be noted that learning to run is a useful skill - when he is physically ready to learn it - even for a boy with wings. The trick is that the regular running lessons may or may not be enought, because it is trick to learn to run with those big wings hanging off the back, ruining your balance, yes?

I'm sad to say that there isn't any "turnkey" school situation, where you can get everything figured out at once, and then sit back. Don't stress yourself out by trying to get the whole thing figured out at once, it's a process, yes?

Love and More Love,
Trinity

[quote=Trinity]

Has he memorised his times tables?

Yes, most are memorized but some that he doesn't have down cold he uses reasoning to figure out. 7x6 for example - he'll do 7x5 then add 7. The psychologist who tested him last week taught him the 9's trick with his fingers - That was worth the money. :-)

Trinity, I see you're in Connecticut. That's where I grew up and I know they are one of the states with a later cutoff to begin Kindergarten. If we lived there we would only be talking about a 1 -2 years skip (3 for gifted curriculum) not the 2-3+ in our state.

Zia�s Mom,

I always benefit from considering dissenting opinions when I am trying to crystallize an idea in my mind. I assume you are interested in all the pros and cons for your argument, so let me play devil�s advocate here.

Obviously, you know your child best. Around here, almost 5 means one more year of pre-school. Almost 5 and starting 1st grade is a two year skip. Almost 5 and starting a 1st grade class which teaches a 2nd grade curriculum seems like a challenging start point for a very gifted child.

If you are looking for your money�s worth in an elementary education, you won�t be satisfied with even a 2nd grade placement. I think it may help to consider that you are investing in your child�s grade placement for future use. Utilizing a scribe for a gifted child without a learning disability may be an over-extension.

My analogy would be to compare this decision to the current mortgage fiasco. Just because you qualify for the 1.5 million dollar house mortgage, doesn�t mean it�s a wise choice. There are other factors that you may not have fully considered, such as an ARM (God forbid) or spiking insurance rates, property taxes and utility bills that are out of your control. If you chose slightly more conservatively, these other factors may still hurt, but will probably not result in foreclosure.

Wonderful analogy.
And yes, I do want all opinions.
You make some excellent points. One of the first questions for our meeting tomorrow is to confirm that they really are a full year ahead in the curriculum. That seems like an important ingredient in all of this and from my limited observations I can't be sure it is truly the case.

Zia's mom - do check all of the info for yourself, eg. sit during classes, as some schools will claim that they are really advanced in all subjects and later you discover it not being so.
Be cautious and double check everything. Talking to other parents at the school is always an excellent eye opener

That's how I do 7 x 6, too! Keep guiding in the direction of automaticity, only in self defense - these are the "running" tasks that tend to be the lens that teachers see smartness in. My son seems to have been more "uneven" able to discuss ethics at 4, but unable to read an analog clock until everyone learned it in first grade. You son seems to be more even in his gifts, which makes grade jumps more workable.

I find this so confusing, but yes CT has a January first cutoff, although I was allowed to go to K at 4 and 3/4 with a late January birthday. a mildly "early enterance" by CT standards, real early enterance by usual standards. Still boys with "Summer Birthdays" are routinely held back for later starts in my town. My July DS shouldn't have been the youngest boy by months in his elementary classes, but was. I call it his "unofficial" gradeskip. He and I both had the too easy/too hard "Goldilocks Problem" in elementary school, to immature to be "fast runners" and no place to flap our wings in school. I'd really really like to see more schools where each child has their own IEP and works at their own readiness level in each skill and knowledge level. But it doesn't seem like your son will need that. Many PG kids just get their gradeskips and are able to benifit and blend in without giving up the vital parts of themselves. Let's face it, learning how to get along in "non-optimal" environments is a good thing, in moderation.

Well, Zia's Mom, I'm glad you found us, and wish you all kinds of good things at the meeting tommorrow!

Smiles,
Trinity

Delbows -
Loved your morgage analogy. We certianly ran into that last winter.
Smiles,
Trinity

It ocurred to me as i read this thread, that one of the quesions to ask yourself is "what does our family believe school is for?"
This may help as you are considering your options and I think the each of us would give a different answer.

Of course, none of us wants our chilren to be harmed in school; we want them to be relatively happy, and we want them to learn things.

But, beyond that, what do you think is the purpose of school? Is the goal to have your child learn lots of academic skills and be challenged? Do you want them to have school be a place where they make connections and develop skills which will help them be competitive in HS, College and beyond? Do you want them to participate in a microcosm of the larger community, learning about families that are different than they are? Do you want them to be well coached in sports or other activities? Do you want them to be with people who are mostly demographically like them? Do you want them to be exposed to things that you might never think to expose them to at home (I remember being amazed at how much pride DS took in learniing the Pledge of Allegiance--not something I would have thought to teach him)? Do you want them to get a lot of independence early or do you feel they need more protection at first? Do you think that learning to cope with boredom is an important skill or a frustrating waste of time?

I don't suggest that there are right answers to these questions, but that thinking about what is important to your family is key to making a decision you are comfortable with and able to support even when there is a bad day or two (which there are bound to be no matter which decision you make.)

Thanks ACS! Beautiful!
((foot stomping and head nodding))
Trin

A big thanks to everyone who shared with me their advice on how to approach our school meeting to talk about appropriate placement for our son.
The meeting went extremely well, in large part because of how prepared we were. We utilized many of the resources suggested in this thread.
I have to say that we feel extremely fortunate that we have a private, gifted school right here in our backyard. The meeting began with the school selling us on why our child will flourish at their school. They said all the right things about the differences between gifted and highly gifted, etc. We walked away feeling as if they totally get it, mostly because they discussed the multitude of ways that they will ensure that even a highly gifted child's individual needs will be met. And yeah, there was no discussion of problems with sports, handwriting, or dating.

There was much healthy discussion about starting our son in 2nd grade, instead of 1st - and they suggested, based on his scores and academic age, to evaluate and assess him with a 2nd grade teacher. If he truly is ready in the majority of areas for 2nd grade then they will place him there and work with him to make sure he is getting what he needs. If he appears to only be very ahead in one or two areas they will make those accommodations from his 1st grade classroom.
They even brought up the reverse issues, suggesting that he needn't be pulled out of Tai Kwon Do (which is part of the academic curriculum) because it is more cerebral than athletic but suggested we should consider having him to take PE with younger kids.

We feel like we couldn't have stumbled on a better scenario for our child. He is going to get to begin his formal education with the most appropriate placement and IEP right from the beginning.
And most importantly he so excited to begin "real" school.

I will keep you posted on how the assessment goes on Tuesday and if it will be 1st or 2nd this year.

Thanks to all of your comments we went in feeling that either placement could work well. Now we are leaving it in the teacher's hands. Ultimately, she has to support the radical three year grade skip or it won't be successful.

I'll be writing in for lots more input as the months pass.

Thanks again!

Zia's Mom,
I'm so pleased for you and for your son! I'll be looking forward to your report-backs as things go along. The point about the "recieving" teacher is an excellent one. Yippee!
Love and More Love,
Trinity