Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy WPPSI-III - Are results accurate?

I would like to hear from professionals or parents that have had experience with the WPPSI-III.
My child took this test at age 4 and had a Full Scale IQ score of 146. His Verbal IQ was 145 and is Performance IQ was 146. This was the 99.9th percentile and the highest score his tester had seen on this particular test. I understand 160 is the absolute highest you can go. He scored 17 or higher in 5 of the subsets. I was told that my child more than likely experienced the "ceiling effect" of this test and for a more accurate IQ number we should test him on the older SB LM. We were not inclined to do this since the 146 was well above the 130 he needed to get into a gifted private school.

Then we became interested in applying to the Davidson Young Scholars program. We were told that in order to be accepted he needed a 150 on the WPPSI-III. The other Weschler tests only require a 145 in one area. They told me the reason for this is:
"Although lower scores fall into the 99.9th percentile, we require a score of 150 on the Full Scale, Verbal, or Performance sections of the WPPSI-III because scores tend to be inflated on this test. The experts we consulted believe 150 is a better indicator of the population we strive to serve."

This is in direct contradiction to what I have been told about the "ceiling effect". It is aldo odd that Davidson would accept someone who may get a 150 on one part of the test but could have a significantly lower full score than my child. Anyone who has more information on what research the "experts" Davidson consulted would be very helpful. Is it worth retesting my son with another acceptable test? What test would that be at 4 1/2?
Thanks

I've been wondering the same thing. My son scored 149 on the WPPSI-III at 4 1/2. I guess you could use the SB-5 which has norms starting at age 2. I've sort of decided to wait until DS is older and then have him retested with the WISC-IV. They can't join the DYS program until they're 5yrs. old anyway.

Did your son's psychologist discuss the ceiling issues with you?

I wonder if anyone else finds it interesting that even at the Davidson Institute, a place specifically geared for profoundly gifted children, age becomes a barrier to acceptance. My 4 year old is reading at a 5th grade level, doing math at a 3rd grade level and most comfortable with children twice his age or older. Why should children be limited by age?

Isn't this the very problem we have with a formal education?
My child can not begin school because of age. Intelligence and ability seem to be completely irrelevant.

She only discussed ceiling issues in a very vague way. I don't think she is very familiar with these issues. DS scored a 19 on one subtest and 18's on three others.

I understand how you feel about the age restrictions on school. DS will be repeating Kindergarten in the fall because he is not old enough to be enrolled in first grade. He went to K last year at a private school, but he makes the age cutoff for public K this fall by just 2 weeks. In our state, early entrants to first grade must be at least 5 years old. DS will not be 5 until the end of November.

Have you considered homeschooling?

We are very fortunate that there is a small, private school for the gifted here. It is very expensive though and no scholarships are available until 5th grade.

My child misses the kindergarten cutoff here by 5 weeks. There are no provisions in this state for early entrance. He would have to remain in preschool this year, kindergarten next year, etc. The gifted school is allowing acceleration and he is beginning 1st grade while still 4. Although we are still concerened that 1st grade is not enough of an acceleration. If we don't already feel the need to lie to others about what grade he is entering for fear of all the negative comments about socialization, etc.

We are thrilled that a school wants to work with us but he learns at such a remarkable pace that while that may have been the best placement when he was interviewed in March, he has now surpassed the curriculum in most all subjects and will be bored in 1st grade, too. We struggle everyday with what is right because we know it will be frowned on, even at a school that purports to cater to the gifted child's needs, to be in second grade while the other students are 3-4 years older. At the same time, why pay the close to $20,000 a year to accelerate at all if the placement won't truly challenge our child. We have read so much about children being bored and losing their wonderful spirit. Up until now the sky has been the limit on learning in our home. Ultimately homeschool might be the only way to achieve this.
We plan on meeting with the school next week to make our pitch for second grade.


That is too bad that your son needs to repeat Kindergarten. I'm sure you have many of the same concerns we do about keeping them engaged and excited to learn. My stress level is quite high now that the new year is upon us. I empathize with all those parents who have gone down this path before me and sometimes with multiple children!!!

I don�t envy anyone with highly advanced children starting out in K or 1st grade in an inflexible school environment. I also resent our personal situation where we are forced to pay for our children�s education because our public district mucked things up so badly for our daughter. I am extremely sympathetic to parents who are unable to pay for a more appropriate education and empathetic With parents who are unable to pay $20,000 for an elementary level education.

Cathy and Zia,

You are beginning a long hard road. It would be great if your children become Davidson Young Scholars, but that is not the �end all� solution to your children�s needs. IMO, your most pressing issue is appropriate school placement right now. Fall B-days are certainly a problem for gifted kids. Establishing appropriate grade placement from the beginning will greatly minimize any corrections that may be needed in the future. If I understand correctly, each of your children are offered one grade early entrance with out the �fight�. If you can imagine, that is already better than some other districts.

I would suggest having your children tested RIGHT NOW on the SB-5 (may be lower than current scores(or not), but possibly more meaningful) and an individual achievement test by a psychologist experienced with gifted children. If the results support your current position, do anything you can to place them where they need to be, even if it means moving them after the first three weeks. If the SB-5 doesn�t meet the Davidson threshold, re-test later on the WISC-IV to see if they qualify for the Young Scholars program.

High I.Q. at a very young age demonstrates potential and achievement. Whether right or wrong, the mainstream idea of intelligence becomes more correlated to achievement only as the child becomes older. Academic challenge commensurate to that early I.Q. will help ensure development of their potential better than affiliation with any group. Hopefully, your children get both!



http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/highly_profoundly.htm

Hi Zia's Mom,
Welcome!
I would apply to the YSP as soon as he turns 5, with those scores. If they need more, they will ask for it. The posted specs tend to be a bit higher than what they accept in real life, if you can demonstrate that he is working well beyond his grade level. I would start collecting "portfolio" materials now, camcorder type stuff.

IQ testing is usually a bit less accurate before age 5 in general, and the YSP staff has a tremendous amount of experience with PG and near PG experience. Also keep in mind that there are no agreed upon definitions of Giftedness or of Profound Giftedness. They do know what they are talking about. There are 1000 plus YSP families. We Moms are all (mostly all? Not Dottie, surely.) suspisious, fearful, hypercritical and hyperalert - a real PIA population. We are also warm, caring, and delightfully intelligent. ((shrug - well that shoe fits me, eh?))And it's no wonder with the treatment most of us grew up with, and have seen our children suffer through. Have you noticed how long your kid's memory is for slights?

Anyway, it's important to keep in mind what the YSP can and can't do for you.
Can't - make your schools behave
Can - introduce you to other Parents who have lived through similar stuff, and have sympathy and advice. With better confidentiality than you get here.
Can't - make your child behave (humor alert)
Can - offer Parent Seminars with some of the "big" names to help you figure you kid.

You can get lots and lots of the benifit from posting here, and getting the feedback of other Parents, but here you have to be more careful to obscure the detail, and get occasionl spam. I don't know if you will eventually get to join the YSP, but I do know that even if you do, there will always be tons of families who "just miss" and need the information as much as any of us. Is it fair? No. It's a total drag. But how much generosity do you want out of folks who are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts? The good news is that I will do my personal best to make sure that you get the best of YSP right here. I don't have the money to start a program for HG kids, but I have eyes and ears and a mind and I'm not afraid to use them.

Good luck with your attempt to place into 2nd grade. I think your child will do well, although for some kids the physical act of handwriting puts a cramp on things a bit. Many kids do well socially with radical acceleration, so don't let that worry you. And the business about out growing the planned program is very typical for PG kids. Have you read Ruf's "Losing our Minds" book? You can get an estimate in the back for how long it will take you child to get through elementary education. Of course if you find that 2nd grade is a good fit, you may be able to transfer back to the pubilc schools as a 3rd grader next year and save the money.

I'm glad that you are open to home schooling. Remember that the largest cost of school isn't the money that you pay any particular year, but the human cost of being in a "bad fit" environment is too much for some children to handle. Some have bad behavior in the classroom and collect misdiagnosis, some mask their talent and grow up misunderstanding themselves and living lives that don't fit them like an outgrown sweater.

Some people don't have choices, but if you do have them, do your best to make them wisely. It sounds like you are well on your way.

Best Wishes, and let us know how it goes with School,
Trinity

BTW -
It is a good sign that the tester was interested in using SB LM, and means that they have some idea what they are doing, but don't go along with it. Use the SB-V with the gifted index. If your psychologist can't do that, find one who can, if indeed you are going for more testing. I find that schools don't usually understand the difference between 130 and 145 and 160.
Trinity

Do any of you know Davidson's rationale for using the FSIQ rather than the GAI on Wechsler tests? It seems a little inconsistent of them.

I understand that they have to have some sort of cutoff. I think it would be good, though, if they explained their logic.

Also, the lower age limit used to be 4. Why not offer support to families when their children are 4 and are starting school? This tends to be a very difficult time for people.

Thanks to everyone for the thoughtful responses.

There is so much to learn and many forks in the road.
We will retest achievement and if results warrant it push for another grade skip. I am not going to retest IQ until at least six.

I will apply to the YS program with what I have and if that is not enough, there are other more important things to focus on, as a number of you so articulately pointed out.

Looking forward to more interesting discussions in the future.