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    #27121 - 09/29/08 07:57 PM Confused about WISC IV results
    Tortoise Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 09/29/08
    Posts: 3

    It's my first post - so hello to everyone!

    My son is 6 years old and was recently tested on the WISC IV. He got a 154 on the GAI (sum of scaled scores was 103), but that was with two sub-tests missing (coding and symbol search). The evaluator decided not to push him, as he was getting tired and resistant. We had brought him in to find out why he was having trouble paying attention in school, not necessarily to get an IQ score. He hit the ceiling on 3 sub-tests, and we found that he's in the 99.9th percentile overall, even with the two missing sub-tests at zero.

    My question is this. According to things online, a score of 154 (or 160 if he had taken the other two tests, as I'm sure he would have gotten at least a 3 on each of the missing sub-tests) counts as profoundly gifted on the WISC IV.

    Here is the link I'm referring to, saying that 152-160 is profoundly gifted on the WISC IV.

    Is this correct, or am I just confused? If he scores this high, is he really profoundly gifted? Or does the test not really extend that far up into the higher ranges of giftedness?

    #27123 - 09/29/08 08:39 PM Re: Confused about WISC IV results [Re: Tortoise]
    Cathy A Offline

    Registered: 05/26/07
    Posts: 1783
    Loc: West coast, USA
    In order to figure out what his full-scale score would have been given average performance on coding and symbol search, you would take the sum of scaled scores on the first six subtests and add 20. That would give you 123. Then you would look that up in a table to find the correspoding FSIQ.

    You can't add scaled scores to the composite scores.

    GAI=154 is quite high. He is certainly HG+. Average performance on the two missing subtests would probably yield a somewhat lower FSIQ. Maybe Dottie could look it up for you.

    #27130 - 09/30/08 04:24 AM Re: Confused about WISC IV results [Re: gratified3]
    questions Offline

    Registered: 11/24/07
    Posts: 864
    Welcome, Tortoise.

    I don't think this is necessarily accurate:
    You might also want to go back and get the missing scores so you can calculate a FSIQ and potentially apply to DYS.

    You could call and ask, but I believe a qualifying VCI or PRI score is enough for DYS. Of course, they also require achievement scores, or a very strong portfolio in their place.

    Of course, this is all brand new to you and I doubt you're already thinking about DYS. Lucky you to find this website so quickly. I'm sure you'll find some great resources.

    #27135 - 09/30/08 06:13 AM Confused re:WISC IV 2 only different [Re: gratified3]
    mom23gs Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 09/23/08
    Posts: 4
    Hi, this site is all new to me but the reading of old posts has helped very much.
    I am wondering what the results of my twin DD9's WISC IV may mean. I had them evaluated by a private psychologist and through the Explore test so as to glean insight into scores and abilities as I have suspected GT but school is not moving to identify and the Twin issue is a sensitive one ex.. what if one qualifies and one doesn't ect.
    DD 1- VCI 134( 96th %), PRI 102, WMI, 110, PSI 136(98%) for WISC IV FSIQ 126,96th percentile
    Explore results as a 3rd grader: composite14(>50% 8th graders) English14(>59%), Math 12(>23%), Reading (>54%), Science16( >60%)Ohio's rubric would Id based on these (Im in PA)

    DD2-VCI 132, PRI 108, WMI 113, PSI 131, FSIQ 127(96%ile)
    Explore in 3rd grade, composite13(>37%), English12(>39%) sub set of English rhet skills 7 (>63%), Math (>12%), Reading 14 (>64%) Science16 (>60% of 8th graders)again Ohio would ID with their rubric but.. PA has no interpretation based on Talent search)
    My questions.. the PRI- VCI difference of 32 for DD1 and 24 for DD2... what can this mean? My reading.. online.. suggests that the FSIQ is not interpretable and the subtests then need to be looked at separately... VCI can then be used to stand alone. The psych wrote the report to conclude they are both GT and in need of services. My school says .. no outside data... I've not shared these results but am contemplating. The <130 is tricky as in PA , chap 16 says it can't be used to decline ID but in my school they DO anyway. I have DD12 in GT , just grade skipped from 5 to 7.. so I have working insight into the GT philisophy at my school ( resistant)
    Twin DD's are now 10 and in 4th grade, reading unabridged classics, AR 6.6 to 7.7 and 8.2 depending on the novel.
    They seem to present to me all the qualities of GT in terms of reasoning, loving learning, constantly reading and learning about subjects of interest.. Any insight into why the VCI..PRI split( the psych big deal They arent' going to be Architects... the other ( VCI) is the strength... PSI is a strengh too but GAI doesn't work here due to ave PRI. OK I thank anyone who can offer assist.

    #27137 - 09/30/08 06:44 AM Re: Confused re:WISC IV 2 only different [Re: mom23gs]
    Tortoise Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 09/29/08
    Posts: 3
    Thank you all for your replies. I'm new to testing, so I'm still trying to figure out many of the acronyms so I can understand. Here are the tests he took and his scores:

    Block design, raw: 19, scaled: 12
    Similarities, raw: 22, scaled 19
    Digit span, raw 17, scaled 16
    Picture concepts, raw: 22, scaled 19
    Coding - not taken
    Vocabulary, raw 30, scaled 16
    Letter-number seq, raw 10, scaled 11
    Matrix reasoning, raw 20, scaled 19
    Comprehension, raw 22, scaled 16
    Symbol search - not taken
    Picture completion, raw 21, scaled 14

    Sum of scaled:
    verbal: 51
    Perceptual reasoning: 52
    GAI 103

    Verbal 142
    Percep reasoning: 145
    GAI 154

    Percentile rank 99.9

    He didn't take any tests for working memory or processing speed. Also, he was tired and resistant, so I know this test isn't fully representative. The tester pointed out some of the tests that she thinks that he scored low on because he was laying down and being reluctant. But he's 6, so that's ok.

    I'm not too hung up on the IQ score, but I had told the grandparents that he got a 154, and we thought that mapped to the old IQ tests from long ago. From the chart on Hoagie's it looks like it doesn't map, and I was just trying to see what range he's in.

    Is the FSIQ similar to the old IQ tests?

    This is a whole new world for me, so thanks for your help!

    #27141 - 09/30/08 07:06 AM Re: Confused re:WISC IV 2 only diffe [Re: Dottie]
    mom23gs Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 09/23/08
    Posts: 4

    I appreciate your insight. I think it's interesting too, the similarity , as they are fraternal and not identical twins. Personalities differ with one being perfectionist and detail, goal oriented but somewhat shy and the other being relaxed, socially empathetic and tending have lots of friends as a result, leader, but less detail oriented... for tests& self organization.. Neither is particularly... "mathy" but learn it fairly easily.
    PA just revised GT law( chap 16) to read FSIO of 130 OR multiple criteria, they literally changed the word AND to the word OR... it it may very well help us in this case. Any other thoughts or questions are welcome Thanks so much.

    #27173 - 10/01/08 08:18 AM Re: Confused about WISC IV results [Re: Tortoise]
    ebeth Offline

    Registered: 06/08/08
    Posts: 412
    Hi Tortoise! Welcome to this site!

    I know that, as parents, we tend to stare at the WISC-IV scores until our eyes cross and the page becomes blurry. We hope beyond measure that somewhere within those scores are the keys to deciphering our child and what they need. I know. My son, DD8, took the WISC-IV last December, and I am still trying to understand his scores and what they mean as far as his educational needs. But the one thing that I've learned on this site is that your child's personality may play a much bigger role in his educational needs. The quote around here, which I will probably butcher mercilessly, is that, if you have seen one gifted child, then you have seen one gifted child. They are all completely different, due to personality issues, etc. You can put two kids who have similar GAI next to each other, and they may each need a very different educational solution. One child may be quiet and shy and may be happier staying with their age peers in a classroom full of friends. The other child may be active and may show their boredom in inappropriate ways in the classroom. That would have been my son in K-2nd grade!

    So welcome and stay and chat for a while. The best thing about this site is that you can find other moms and dads who are going through similar phases with their kids. It is wonderful to be able to ask, "Does anyone else have a child who does this?" Our kids are all different, but there are a few traits that seem to be common among the group.

    So, if you feel like sharing, let us know what lead you to testing on the WISC-IV and how you think the results may influence any school related issues. You said that he has trouble paying attention in school? That sounds familiar! You are in good company here. Hopefully we can help you answer any questions that you may have, and you may add some useful insights for us as well!

    Also welcome to you as well, mom23gs! Twin gifted girls, and an older gifted girl as well. Wow! I thought parenting one gifted child was a challenge. All of the above comments should be directed to you as well. It is very interesting to see twins who are such different personalities score so similarly. I know that when I was trying to understand my DS's WISC-IV scores, I checked out a few books from the library (or interlibrary loans) on interpreting WISC-IV scores. I didn't find them too terribly helpful, since most books only have a few sentences on gifted kids and their scores. But you might want to look to see if they say anything about VCI-PRI splits. I agree with your tester, in that it doesn't seems like a big deal. There are plenty of people on here who talk about the difference between Visual-Spatial learning types verses Auditory-Sequential types. I don't know if that would have any correlation to VCI verses PRI or not? My son is very VS, but you may have AS girls. Note, I'm basing that on a guess that the low PRI score reflects a low Block Design subtest (very Visual-Spatial test), which your DD's may have scored well on?). I'm still struggling to understand these different learning types, so others may be more informed. Just thought I would throw that out there! There is so much information on this board that sometimes it is hard to take it all in. So stay and chat. Welcome!
    Mom to DS12 and DD3

    #27206 - 10/01/08 03:39 PM Re: Confused about WISC IV results [Re: ebeth]
    Tortoise Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 09/29/08
    Posts: 3
    Thank you for the warm welcome. You are so right ebeth - I have been staring at these scores and trying to make sense of them. The tester said he's in the 99.9th percentile, and I've been going buggy trying to figure out what exactly that means for school, parenting, and life in general. What kind of beautiful little person do we have?

    I always knew he was bright. He read at two years 3 months (11 3-letter words), memorized the alphabet sounds at 19 months, and by 2 had learned all the planets (in order), continents, and everything else I could feed his little brain. He didn't start to have school problems until age 4, when his private Montessori school allowed him to start Kindergarten. They let most kids start K at that age, so that wasn't unusual.

    His teacher said he wouldn't do the worksheets, would play with his pencil, talk, or sit and goof off. She said he knew the material and was very smart. But he would always be the last one done with any assignment. His handwriting was awful. I could always pick out which drawing was his, as it was the most scribbly and "babyish" looking. (I always praised his work however, keeping this observation to myself)

    I just figured he didn't like to draw. Big deal. As a toddler, he'd take the crayons out of the box, name all the colors, count them, put them in the box, repeat. Never liked to draw.

    Now we have found that his visual/motor integration is at around age 5.0 (he's 6.5). Hence the 11 on the block design (which is average, but his drawing and writing are below his age) Since it's so much lower than every other ability, it's acting like a learning disability. So says the tester.

    After Montessori Kindergarten, he went to public Kindergarten. He was already working at the first grade level, despite the worksheet/drawing/writing issue. They said they'd give him work at his ability level. This was not true. He pretty much was babysat for a year. At the beginnging of the year his teacher had said his messing around was just a maturity issue, by the end of the year she suggested we see a doctor. The sheets where he had to color the circles, or circle the things with the letter A drove him nuts. There were tears over homework. He refused to do the work, but we forced him, even if it took a long time. His sister (20 months younger) begged to do his homework, as it was the same as the work she did in preschool. We seriously considered it...

    So we brought him back to his Montessori school. He's in first grade now, having lost a year. But that's ok, as they let the kids work at their own pace. His teacher now is amazing and wonderful, and we are lucky to have her.

    I took my son to the pediatrician to get a referral for IQ testing, and possible neurological testing (my husband has a rare form of epilepsy, so neurological issues were a possibility). I told the doc he could read at two, that ADD (he seemed like he had the innatention kind) and giftedness mimic each other sometimes. He was only interested in ADD, and gave me forms to fill out.

    So we paid for independent testing, and learned exactly what was going on. He can concentrate just fine, as long as something is interesting. I knew this, but with two teachers telling me it may be ADD, I got worried.

    That was Friday, and I'm now trying to digest the information. I've been searching the web, trying to learn what highly gifted means. The tester told us the public schools are pretty much out, even the GATE programs in our district are little more than extra problems at the end of normal lessons in regular classrooms. Montessori school ends at 2nd grade (next year) and the only other options are two private schools - one that has a very regimented curriculum, and one that teachers and parents have warned us against.

    So that's how I ended up here, trying to get a grasp on what is up with my beautiful babies. smile

    #27210 - 10/01/08 05:46 PM ¿cómo hacer una pregunta en este foro? [Re: Tortoise]
    lotho Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 10/01/08
    Posts: 7
    Loc: Andalucía- España

    ¿Alguien sabe español?

    #27219 - 10/01/08 08:40 PM Re: Confused about WISC IV results [Re: Tortoise]
    ebeth Offline

    Registered: 06/08/08
    Posts: 412
    Tortoise, you are going to find a lot of company here!

    His teacher said he wouldn't do the worksheets, would play with his pencil, talk, or sit and goof off. She said he knew the material and was very smart. But he would always be the last one done with any assignment.

    This was my son in first grade as well. I had his teacher tell me on several occasions that she was concerned that he was falling behind. crazy I wanted to ask her how in the world he could be falling behind when he had been capable of completing this work when he was three or four? She always wanted DS to complete the easy material before he could move on to more challenging assignments. He always refused to do the easy material, preferring to chat with the other kids and play. Life did not improve for us until DS had a wonderful 2nd grade teacher who promptly realized that DS should not have been in 2nd grade. She gave him the end of the year tests at the beginning of the year, and he sailed through all of them. DS was able to have a mid-year grade acceleration to 3rd. This improved his attitude and behavior at school immensely, including social skills and maturity levels! But even with one grade acceleration, his backpack was filled with doodles and drawings of space battles. He was obviously still not being challenged enough.

    I told the doc he could read at two, that ADD (he seemed like he had the innatention kind) and giftedness mimic each other sometimes. He was only interested in ADD, and gave me forms to fill out.

    He can concentrate just fine, as long as something is interesting

    Yes, this sounds familiar as well. The school psychologist did an in-class observation of DS last year (he was seven at the end of 3rd), and counted the number of times that he kicked his chair or chewed on his fingernails. She calculated the percentage of time that he appeared to be "off-task". However, he could always answer any question that the teacher asked, even if he had been doodling away on his paper. She also noted that he always completed his assignments in half of the time that it took the rest of the class. He simply was not being challenged. Did the school understand this? No. The principle suggested to us that we ask our pediatrician about ADD medication as well. <sigh> It is a long, hard battle that you face.

    But, as is frequently pointed out on this board, these HG+ kids are few and far between. It is unlikely that a teacher or even a school has ever had experience with the issues surrounding a highly gifted kid, such as asynchronous development, or the necessary grade acceleration to keep them challenged. It really depends on if your child's teacher and the school really ever "get" just how different your child is from the average kid.

    You will find many different views or "solutions" to the educational dilemma here. Some have schools that are unable to provide an appropriate educational setting and are home-schooling. Some are in private schools. Some are in gifted schools. My DS has been fortunate enough to have a public school that is willing to accommodate his educational needs. So I wouldn't rule out that possibility. It really depends on the individual school. And with us it also depended on the individual teachers which varied from year to year. However, once the school understood how rare it was to have a kid like DS in their midst, and hence began to appreciate DS's unique intellectual gifts, then things improved dramatically. It just took us nearly three years to get to that point, if we have indeed reached it completely. cry

    And as for additional information... There are many, many books out there on gifted kids. I know that in the last six months I have grabbed every book that I can from the library (interlibrary loans are wonderful!!). I can name a few books (and I'm sure others can chime in), but after a while they all start to swim together. So here is a list of titles that I can remember.:

    1) Re-Forming Gifted Education: How Parents and Teachers Can Match the Program to the Child (Paperback) by Karen Rogers
    2) Exceptionally gifted children by Gross, Miraca U. M.
    3) Misdiagnosis And Dual Diagnoses Of Gifted Children And Adults: ADHD, Bipolar, OCD, Asperger's, Depression, And Other Disorders by James T. Webb
    4) Losing Our Minds: Gifted Children Left Behind by Deborah L. Ruf
    5) Critical Issues and Practices in Gifted Education: What the Research Says by National Assoc for Gifted Children
    6) Raising Gifted Kids: Everything You Need to Know to Help Your Exceptional Child Thrive by Barbara Klein

    So I agree with the advice previously to "buckle your seatbelt". It is indeed a bumpy ride. But at least you will have company along the way!
    Mom to DS12 and DD3

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