Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional 68 points between PSI and GAI! Disability?

My son took the WISC-IV and these are the scores VCI=140, PRI=143, WMI=107, and PSI=83. He is doing "ok" in his gifted class (5 day a week, all day, gifted public school class). He recently brought homw a 29 on a spelling test and a 52 on a math test. We have gone over the spelling words and he can recite them correctly due to memorization. His grades were generally A/B last year. His main issues are that he memorizes the spelling words but can not apply them during writing, he reverses some letters, and mixes his syllables sometimes. He still misspells very familiar words and spells the like they sound.

I had a conference today with his teacher and she said she will allow him extra time to finish tasks due to the slow processing speed on the IQ test and his work in class. The district (DUVAL) does not acknoledge dyslexia as a LD. I am not sure he has it but something is going on..... What do I do? The info I have says this discrepensie is HUGE! but nobody in the school wants to address it. They just say that they will offer more time. Should I push for further testing? My goal is for him to want to learn and he currently hates school......

I wanted to add. He is generally slow when finishing his work. He shows perfectionistic tendencies and either works extremely hard to produce legible work in all subjects or it is very messy with many mistakes. The math test score was not due to not understanding how to do the problem. I think it was because they wanted him to draw pictures of his answers, which was hard. He put so much effort into it he got the actual computation wrong in almost every instance. You can tell that he erased ALOT. They are working multiplication which is hard for him. Although, he understands the concept.

Hi, flowersfamily!

While lower than average, PSI=83 is still within the normal range. It could certainly be causing a processing bottleneck for him, though. My DD9 has similar problems with writing and spelling. Her oral spelling is much better than her functional spelling, too. She has been diagnosed with a LD which seems to be related to visual/motor integration.

You may want to get private testing and get some recommendations from the psychologist as to what may help him. More time is probably one thing, but there may be others.

One thing the psychologist recommended for DD is that she learn to type. Typing her writing homework has really helped her. You may also want to read about dysgraphia. There are a few threads here in the 2E section about that.

Thank you for your response. I have found on Hoagies Deborah Harris in Gainesville and she seems to be a fairly local expert on gifted kids. I think I will have him tested to see what comes about.

Also, does anyone else wonder where the scores come from. My son has always been quick to learn something but apparently slow to get it out, he has a fairly good vocabulary, shows talent in memorizing music and drama. But I would never have guessed his IQ be so high. FSIQ=129 but his GAI=151. I just don't see anything that is out of ordinary really. I really see more deficits in comparison with his peers then any special abilities, eventhough the scores say the opposite. I just don't see alot of what I see other posters post.....

Hi, totally new to this. Just got my dd wisc iv last week. Your post really caught my eye. These scores are virtually identical to my dds. I was told by the school she did not make it into the GT because they have a firm 130. In fact she hit the ceiling on three subtests in VCI and PRI. Also she scored off the charts in the arithmatic( this is where i see her as most gifted). However they told me they do not figure this score into her WMI (WMI was 104). Is she 2E? Do I need to test her on a different iq test? DD is 7yrs.

Thanks for responding Dottie. I live In Wisconsin. VCI 142, PRI 140, WMI 106(arim. 18, but was told they do not substitute this score), PSI 84. The school psy. had never heard of GAI, he thought I was kinda nuts. So I had to figure this out on my own(GAI 151).Should I push this GAI tech. report under his nose! I did call the state DPI gifted and talented person told her the situation. She agreed that daughter should be in GT. She said our state would be "informining" the school districts about GAI for the 2009-10 school year. By the way, our school district has no GT till 4th grade.

I can hardly believe the similarities in scores! The GAI is the same. WOW! Definitely gat the info about it and make an appointment with the district. Do you notice any areas that are of concern? How does she write and spell? I am short on time but will be visiting here often. Thanks

What do the confidence intervals mean? Sorry, if this is off topic.

Welcome Flowers and Klh! Sorry I jumped in to your thread without even at least saying hello. I don't have anything to add. Dottie, the link you posted above is for Canadian Norms. I don't know if that makes any difference or not?

Dotti, the scores I gave you were composite. Here are her scaled scores. VCI- similarities 18,vocab. 16, information 17. PRI- block design 17, picture concepts 18, matrix reasoning 15, picture complpletion 15. WMI- digit span 8, letter number sequencing 13, arithmetic 18. PSI-coding 5, symbol search 8.
I do think she did poorly on coding because she is a perfectionist. She had a major melt down last week because one of her written letters was not perfect looking. She does hate the physical act of writting.
I was told by the school district she reads in the 90%. We have district MAPs testing next week. Again I do think her strongest area is math. At 4 she could do 100pc puzzles faster than I could.

Also, her teacher at school thinks she may have some tracking issues. I have an eye appt. for her next week with a pediactric opthmologist. Her older brother has esophoria. I did vision therapy with him, it was a waste of 5 grand.

It is great to know that you guys are out here. Especially since my DH thinks I am making a big deal out of nothing. He seems to think DS is fine/normal leave him alone. He can't spell and he survived. I guess I don't want my DS to 'survive' I want hime to thrive. FYI DH did the minimum to get by all through school and put all of his energy into sports instead. He owns his own business and is successful today but he has a VERY hard time communicating in email or on paper and reading is not easy for him either. He complains of headaches and such. I know this is not about him but I think it is an issue because he has undiagnosed learning issues and does not want DS to be singled out like he was. ADD was suspected as a kid.

So, back to the basics. Should I push and/or pay for further diagnostic testing for my son?

PRI = 143 VCI = 140 WMI = 107 and the PSI = 83. What are some of the reasons for large spreads in the scores, performance vs. memory/speed? What effects the PSI? What are tracking issues? The tester I would send him to specialized in Gifted kids and even uses the old test that extends the ceiling in addition to other things. I am not sure what it is called. Maybe it is the stanford binet? He did have 2 18's and 2 19's on Similarities comprehension, picture concepts, and matrix reasoning. But a 6 on coding and and 8 on symbol search.
She really seems to know her stuff. I guess another question is if I have him tested what is the end result? What do I do with the info? Would it actually diagnose something? He is in a 5 day full time PS gifted class in a magnet program. The teacher says he is in the middle of his peers in performance and will offer him more time to ease his anxiety but is this enough? She seems to think if he is performing well just let it go.

But the gap in scores is really worrying me? Thanks

Also, sorry for keep adding but..... he really doesn't seem all that different from his peers. I knew he was smart. He has always been ahead developmentally and had a great vocabulary but I was actually surprised at the results of the testing. The scores are a bit vague and I have read posts about some of the kids with similar scores and they seem to have unique interests etc. He enjoys drama and music and can memorize songs and movies easily. He can also play the piano by instict. Not copying anything fantastic but by making up his own songs. He will play for 10 miunutes straight, with his whole body, and both hands just crazy. It always sounds different but pretty good. Is this a talent? He has no interest in reading music. Should I be looking for some special talent or capabilities that he has that relate to his scores? I know there are alot of questions but all of this has been brewing for over a year and I just never posted. Thanks

Hi. Totally New to this board, but here is a report from the Gifted Development Center that is totally on point for this discussion:

http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/About_GDC/whoaregiftd.htm

The WISC-IV VCI and PRI are much better predictors of giftedness than the WMI and PSI. The article gives specific ranges for differences that indicate the full scal IQ on WISC will not be accurate. E.g. if Index score on the four composites show delta greater than 23, the FSIQ is not accurate.

This article is a MUCH easier read than the WISC Technical report, which was a real slog to understand.

Good Luck.

Welcome, EngineerMom! Hope you'll post again!

I recently heard Dr. Paul Beljan on the subject and he was fantastic. http://www.paulbeljan.com

Does anybody know anything about the Dumont-Willis indices that are referred to in the link EngineerMom posted?

I'm not sure why the test publishers are so insistent on keeping subtests that are poor measures of 'g'. It messes up the predictive validity and construct validity of the IQ score. It's important to remember that IQ subtests are *not* designed to measure specific cognitive abilities. They are designed to measure components of the statistical concept of 'g'. Too many different types of cognitive skills are involved in each subtest. There are many other more 'pure' tests of things like working memory and processing speed. If you really want to break down a child's strengths and weaknesses outside of general verbal and non-verbal measures of 'g', other tests give you a much more useful measure.

Here's one example...
http://pearsonassess.com/HAIWEB/Cultures/en-us/Productdetail.htm?Pid=015-8570-049

I agree, CFK. It's one of the reasons homeschooling is working better for us than public school was.

I had trouble convincing the 1st grade teacher that DS7 was really in need of more challenging work because he didn't finish the work he was given in the time allotted. But the more boring it was to him, the slower he did it.

School really just isn't set up to deal with his particular profile, though I suspect he is going to accomplish a lot in his adult life.

PSI and WMI have a lot more to do with how a kid fits into the system than the end result of their education, I think. But knowing those non-GAI scores did help me to realize that public school wasn't going to be a good fit in his particular case, and thus allowed me to serve his needs more effectively. FWIW...

There are lots of abilities and traits that predict school performance that have nothing to do with intelligence (i.e., g). Do they belong in an IQ test? I think it's reasonable to say they don't. I like the idea of preserving IQ scores as a more generalized measure of abilities not contaminated with more specific abilities. If you want the IQ test to be an even better predictor of school performance, why not add some measures of sustained attention, motivation, vision, hearing, mood, etc... There are just too many specific abilities you could include and there are other cognitive tests that are much better measures of these specific skills. But I know it's not going to change any time soon - just food for thought...

I see what you're saying, but I don't think IQ tests are really purposed for finding GTness. That's not why they exist. They are used that way, sure, but it's not by design.

I think they exist to find out how people will fit into the educational system, or perhaps a work environment for adults. I think they picked factors easy to test that related to that goal. Persistence is harder to test and doesn't seem like intelligence to the average person. But memory and speed do. So they picked those.

Do I like them as a measure of intelligence? Not so much, no. But I do think they were useful for me to see on my son's test, and they did factor into his issues at school.

<shrug> It's kind of a wash for me.

Yeah, persistence of the gt sort probably seems like obsession and bull-headedness to most folks. Could even come across as 'slowness', for sure. Certainly on a test it could.

I think that adding these tests that sort of seem like measures of intelligence but that don't measure any specific cognitive skill add to the overconfidence in the ability of the IQ tests alone to predict how a kid learns. The tests were designed decades ago to predict which groups of people would do well in school. But it just doesn't do a good job at that for an individual child. For a gt kid who has a relative weakness (but not impaired) in, say, speed, the IQ test may "make sense" in light of their weaknesses in school. But IQ tests are being used irresponsibly to diagnose learning disabilities and to make recommendations for intervention on the basis of subtest score scatter. That overconfidence is causing kids to slip through the cracks that may have a very specific learning issue (e.g., memory disorder). IQ tests do not test isolated cognitive functions and don't give a full (or even close) profile of strengths and weaknesses in learning. With kids who may be 2E, all it can do is raise red flags that should point to further evaluation. Including tests that are not related to 'g' just adds to that overconfidence. Why aren't the examiners making the limitations of the IQ test clear?

My question regarding FS vs GAI and WM/PSI is how low is low? On this board we're talking about differences between WM/PSI and VCI/PRI where VCI/PRI are very, very high. At one site I read, it was noted that the WM/PSI is really for indicating educational success at the lower end of the spectrum. For ex: a 20 pt difference w/ avg VCI/PRI and even lower PSI/WM affects a child greatly in the classroom. So would a >20pt difference putting PSI/WMI in the avg range and VCI/PRI in the 140s, have an adverse affect on an HG+ kid? The report I read suggested not. But if you do you have more info and more complex info in your head compared to age-mates, would an avg PSI/WMI have an affect on performance?

Jool, I agree completely, especially about overconfidence in IQ tests and using the test for diagnosing things beyond the scope of the test. Absolutely right! Yes!

Dazey, I think it depends upon what you mean by "adverse effect" there. A relatively big difference between FS vs. GAI *DOES* have an effect on performance. I say that anecdotally from watching my son, not from any study that I'm reading. But I do think it's just common sense. If you can't think through things as fast or you can't remember things as well, but you have more in your brain to think through and remember, it IS going to affect how you can do things. It has to, doesn't it?

But does that issue have an effect on performance that acts as an actual LD that puts a kid BEHIND in class? And not merely "not as far ahead as he could be if his speed and memory were as strong as his comprehension." (Which always seems to me to be floating into a useless "what if" land. As in the "impaired" vs. "relative weakness" that Jool described above.)

I guess I have trouble seeing "average" as necessarily bad.

Now, if it interferes with learning, obviously that's different. I see that potential for that problem with my son, and we do have to use some work arounds--less focus on mental math and more writing things down, more time to think through his work, etc. But these are not major adaptations for us as homeschoolers.

In a formal school setting, however, with a teacher who didn't get him, they *could* be major--and ungettable!

So "how low is low" is a good question, I think. It's certainly one to consider as we make decisions for our own kids, even if we're not overthrowing the IQ testing system!

My guess is that the kids with high scores on all the indices look different and learn different from kids who had high GAI and average WM/PSI scores. There's a relative weakness somewhere for the ones with the discrepancy. I would also guess that the HG+ kids with average WM/PSI are a very heterogenous bunch. Some just have a relative weakness but they are normal with no real impairments, just overlying strengths. Some have an underlying disability but use their intelligence to compensate. Some may have slower processing, some slower motorically, some more perfectionistic, some have working memory issues, some have attention issues, etc... I would say that if it just "makes sense" in terms of what you know about them by being their parent, and it's not causing problems in their environment, it's okay. But if a child is struggling, you need to delve deeper to get at the specific issue is that is causing the discrepancy. I guess what I'm saying is that an average score (or a disproportionately low score) doesn't necessarily rule out a problem. Intelligent people can compensate for learning disabilities, especially on IQ subtests where there are many skills to fall back on to get an adequate score.

Kriston, we crossposted but I think said basically the same thing using different words .

Let me preface this by saying that I find IQ tests painfully limited. I have had multiple tests done on multiple kids, but they were all for specific purposes and not because I was curious. I think I've gotten more questions than answers. I'm glad others have found tests more useful because it's nice if they help someone! In observing my own kids, I think personality trumps ability all day long, so that two kids with very similar scores appear drastically different in everyday life because of who they are. I almost wish I didn't know anything about their scores and how they get classified because the tests are just so restricted.

But with that caveat, on to the question above. I have one kid with average PSI and one kid with major strengths in PSI/WMI. In my observations of them, the speedy kid takes on information quite differently. He didn't learn to read, simply seemed to master it one day to the next. He spelled like an adult by K because he remembers any word he's seen once. He didn't *learn* multiplication tables but saw them once during a long car trip, and then he could multiply. He has a low tolerance for school because of the speed, more than the IQ. It's almost painful for him to go slowly. My kid with average PSI needs some repetition to learn and needs much more exposure to a topic for mastery. The abililty to think deeply about something isn't much different between them, but acquisition of new information is hugely different.

I think speed matters in early elementary school because of the constant repetition and how slow the curriculum advances. My kids need different environments partly based on the speed differences. I think it can matter as an adult in some areas that require digesting huge amounts of information - med school or law school - but much less so in fields where there's emphasis on creativity and production over time like most grad schools, not to mention art, engineering, etc.

Another thought - The PSI could be the same for a kid who is a quick learner but a slow doer as another kid who is the opposite. A kid might perceive things quickly without needing repetition but might be slow in their performance because of another cognitive issue - the PSI really wouldn't tell you that. (I know, I know... I'm preaching to the choir when I say just knowing your kid says more than the index score...

I heard in a webinar type thing with a GT testing expert that if PRI was high and PSI was low, PSI wasn't really low for the kid, just on the test. . . . or something else of interest was going on. His theory was that PRI requires speed and "you can't fake good" so a high PRI should end any concerns about low PSI. I have no idea if that's true or not . . . . . does anyone else?

Agreed that knowing a kid is worth more than an index score.

Hmmm... I've never heard that before. My DS7's PRI was near the ceiling, but his PSI is average.

So you really have my attention, G3!

Any idea what the "something else of interest" might be?

One major difference between the subtests that go into the PRI/PSI is that the PSI subtests are timed and the PRI ones aren't. They both use visual perceptual skills. So my guess is that what this webinar person was saying is that if you have high PRI, a low PSI score would not be due to a visual perceptual issue. There would be some other reason for the slowness. In reality, though, you could have a child with, say, a visual processing problem who performs poorly on the PSI because of the nature of the stimuli used in the tests. Someone with low acuity, for example, would be more likely to make errors on Coding and Cancellation tests (from PSI) than the Block Design and Picture Completion tests(PRI) because in the first 2 tests the stimuli are smaller and more bunched up together. Although PSI tests are timed, you could be fast but still get a low score for making errors. The final score does not distinguish between errors and time. Also, even when it's pretty obvious by looking back at their performance that there is a speed (not perceptual) issue, (e.g., no errors on PSI tests) you still haven't answered the question of why they were slow. Do they have slow input? Slow output? Both? Something else causing their slowness?

I defer to other who know more about how this *really* works, but the notes I took said this: in some PRI subtests, you get bonus points for speed. If PSI is slow, you shouldn't be able to do block design well. If PRI is high and PSI low, you need to worry about why the kid couldn't do the tasks on the PSI because the kid was fast in some things and it wasn't just about speed. He said good PRI scores rule out real speed issues and visual deficits.

But really . . . . . I'm in over my head and don't know anymore than that.

Huh. Interesting.

I guess that just flies in the face of what I see with my own child, G3. He is a pattern...expert? genius? pro? I dunno, but some word like that. Just really, really able to make sense of data in amazing ways. But he is slow. Not just on the test, but in real life.

Now, it is possible that the patterns in the PRI were just so obvious to him that there was no need for him to take any time. He just saw everything immediately. That wouldn't surprise me a bit, actually!

He's not usually a perfectionist either, so I wouldn't think that sort of issue would have been problem for him, as it surely is for some kids with odd PSI scores.

Wait...now that I'm re-reading both the past two posts together, I'm seeing something confusing:





If speed is NOT a factor in PRI, then everything makes sense. If it is, then our test results make less sense to me.

Well, I can't claim to be sure of how this *really* works any more than anyone else who has read about IQ testing, but I'll still give my opinion...




I'm still not convinced. What about the kid with fine motor slowness who struggles with writing quickly with a pencil? He may whip through block design but struggle with coding. Only the PSI tests would tap into speed with using a pencil. Again with the visual acuity thing - I could do block design with my glasses off but wouldn't be able to do Symbol Search. My good PRI would not tap into the fact that I need my glasses.

My bad. G3 is right - you do get bonus points for speed on some of the PRI tests. What I should have said is that the scores on PSI subtests are *more* dependent on speed than the PRI tests are. The PRI tests are not as sensitive to slowness. Anyhow, I still stand by my previous comment -- I'm still not convinced about the generalization this webinar person is making.

So thinking about your DS Kriston, would you say that he takes in information quickly, but is slow at producing? Does he read quickly, but is slow at writing about what he reads?

Hmmm... I would say he's generally slow (meaning average for his age!) at the taking in. He needs time to digest things, to think them through.

Hovever, he both reads and writes at about the same speed, so I'm not sure I'm reflecting him accurately given your question... Writing is no problem for him. He likes to write, and often chooses to write books for fun.

He is a deliberate kid, on both ends of the process. He is not hasty in any way, and time worries him. He does not like to feel rushed. It is a major stressor for him.

Where I saw speed issues the most was in his (boring) homework sent home from school. He just isn't the sort of kid who is able to push through, get it done and get on with life. Nowadays, it's mostly problematic for timed math tests for math facts. But wait, that's production, isn't it?

See, I don't know! :p

What do you mean "identified root," Dottie? I'm not familiar with that terminology.

I learn so much here!

This makes me think about the whole speed/accuracy balance. Could it be that when he is not fully engaged, his attention wavers but he does not sacrifice accuracy for speed? So while some kids (like my DS6) would show his inattention to boring homework by rushing through it and ending up with sloppy work and careless mistakes, yours doesn't. Part of it is my DS's inattention to the boring stuff, and part of it is his (Type A-ish, rushy) personality. So maybe because of your DS's personality (not a kid on New York time) your DS manifests the same issue (lack of full focus to the boring task) as slowness vs. carelessness.
Of course we know all of this is just speculation, but if anything is going to nail him down with the info. you have, it's going to me your speculation and hunches as his mom .

Well, it makes good sense. Good term, if you coined it.

So just to be sure I'm following you here: you're saying that DD11 is slower because of auditory processing issues, which tends to come out in verbal areas, while her strength is PRI, right? So she is a visual learner, then? Or am I taking it too far there?

You know, just musing here...it's interesting to me that DS7 is really strong in language, especially foreign language. He can't get enough of it and he picks it up really fast. It's one of the few areas I'd say he is faster than average at something. He spells well and he writes easily. I figure all that's a pattern thing, right? (Especially since his verbal scores, while GT, were nowhere near his PRI.)

This is all so interesting to me!

Interesting!

I would agree that he does not sacrifice accuracy for speed. Yes, that all seems right. For example, he doesn't usually miss problems on his timed math tests, but he won't finish the page in time.

I think you nailed it, Jool! (With no thanks to me and my muddled thinking on this! )

LOL!

You know, DS7 has "huh" issues, too. I have to repeat everything at least twice. Not just most things, but everything. Hmmm...Now I'm chewing on that...

Our whole family seems to be visual learners--DH is visual-spatial, for sure. I'm visual-verbal (I need to see the words on the page to get them, but I like words more than pictures). DS4 seems to be the "artsy-fartsy" end of visual-spatial. He also needs everything repeated multiple times.

DS7 is more perplexing, as one IQ test said he's decidedly VS and the other said he's decidedly NOT VS. he's clearly visual, but I'm not sure he's VS.

Much more to think about...

*Or* could learning quickly in foreign language be from doing better with novelty/challenge? The PSI tests are more repetitive and boring than the PRI tests. Someone who focuses their attention better with novelty and tires with sameness should do better on the PRI tests. I wouldn't connect the nonverbal > verbal with the strong foreign language. Language is definitely a pattern thing but a different pattern thing then, say, matrix reasoning, unless your talking about learning Chinese (new visual pattern) - where there theoretically could be some overlap.

I agree. At the very least he doesn't have the kind of severity of issue that your DD has, for sure. But her situation makes me think...which is handy!

Some of his spelling aptitude is the visual acuity, I'm sure. If he sees something, he does tend to "get" it. So if he's read a word, he knows how to spell it.

He also doesn't mishear things as you're describing your DD doing. It's just that when he hears it, he doesn't get it at all. It washes over him and makes no inroads whatsoever. And it doesn't seem to be hyperfocus, BTW. Even when he's looking at me and paying attention, auditory commands are hard for him. On his ITBS, his lowest score by far was the listening section. And he was really trying!

Gosh, a lot of this sounds soooo familiar. The 'huh?' problem, the not sacrificing accuracy for speed, the very sloooow work on boring worksheets, super speed with learning spelling words (if he's seen it, he knows it, and he's been getting some pretty tough words lately...Qualifying for gt program under language arts even though I *always* thought of him as a puzzle-mathy guy. Hm.

Makes me wonder if Kriston or Dottie or others have a recommendation on what sort of testing to look at having conducted for ds8 - I have been wondering about going for some full-on testing since ds is getting on in years . Seriously though, I just read over 8 the tests get less accurate. (He turns 9 in the summer.)

I guess the main reason for testing would be to help figure out the slow performance on timed tests thing, and to understand what is up with the patterny-puzzly side of him. Whether he will be ok with a regular curriculum or if he really needs something more...

The frustrating thing in school for my "speedy" DS is the insistence that he not go too far ahead for fear of having gaps in learning. He did miss out on a whole year's worth of facts. But the gaps just kind of filled in themselves without him really having to put any effort in.

So he's not been tested at all? Just trying to remember where you're at in the process...

Dottie and I formulated a vague theory some months ago that a high PRI may show itself in a puzzle-and-verbal way when the child is young, but may show itself as a facility for higher math as they get older. Pattern recognition is pretty helpful in calculus!

I have no idea if our theory is full of it yet, but it looks like it makes sense based on my anecdotal evidence. <shrug> Take it for what you paid for it!

As for testing, if you can use the help, get it. Nothing to lose but, time, money, and sanity!

If you think you have a kid like mine, I'd probably advise going for the WISC, not the SB-5. So far both my DS7 and JBDad's son--whom he describes in similar terms--had lower-than-expected results on the SB-5. I'm not sure why.

I don't know if the SB-5 is better for a slightly older kid or not, though. That could be a consideration that I'm not considering...

I think this is a very insightful comment.

Ah, reasons one-size-fits-all education doesn't work, not even in GT programs!

How concerned are you about his slowness and other stuff? I would say the more you or other people are leaning toward 2E, the more limited an IQ test alone would be because it can't be used to diagnose (or rule out) specific LDs. He would need further cognitive testing for that.

Oh, yes! I wasn't even considering LD issues! Thanks, Jool!

Thanks all for responding; guess I left out some stuff because I didn't want to completely hog this good thread.
Ds8, 3rd grade, has been tested by school for the gifted programs available - first w/K-BIT, did very well in language arts and above average in math but not qualifying in math.
Now this year for the 4th grade + program, he's taken a Cogat & Naglieri.
We will get copies of these, perhaps some of this will answer my question - is this slowness anything to worry about, and is he gifted in this area but it's holding him back - but I am not sure they look at speed on any part in particular. That is, do those tests try to tease that out as compared with aptitude.

On one hand, I am not too concerned about it since it mainly manifests itself in what looks like an avoidance strategy.
But then again, arithmetic math facts just about killed his interest in math. The timed sheets were extremely discouraging. I don't think he got past the 3's. He doesn't mind bigger numbers, he is fine with them, he hates to practice just for the sake of getting faster so this definitely contributes to slow performance. But also there might be some perfectionist thing going on.
He is having an ok time with Timez Attack software for learning times tables - tolerating it at least.

The other test he took was the 3rd grade SCAT - he did well in verbal, ok in math - but said he was stuck on the last question in each unit. I don't know for sure but it sort of sounded like he just got stuck on something and didn't go any further.
I know he likes tests like that for fun, so I asked which part he liked better. He said Math. I recently asked him again why he liked that part better and he said because it was harder. Maybe it was giving him lots of things to think about which he'd not seen before and it slowed him down. Again, few clues here, but in addition to being a puzzle whiz even when very young and showing other signs of thinking/learning visually, comments like this make me wonder if he's getting what would be best for him in math curriculum.

If I do anything I will wait until after I see the Cogat and Naglieri results, hopefully that will help me see if anything further is needed.
Kriston, I think ds is a lot like your ds, not in level of giftedness, but in many of the things you described about how he gets along. And Dottie's daughter too...we have been to the doctor many times to have his hearing checked. He did have lots of ear infections when small, the ENT doctor said he had ok structure, so no treatment recommendations, but we never went so far as to analyze if he had any processing issues. I really only vaguely know what that means and have less idea of what would cause something like that.
He is pretty quick to pick up on things, the slowness is on the output side, timing things makes it worse.
Preschool teachers asked about his hearing and I myself have wondered about his ability to hear through other noisy goings-on. Also he was hard to understand in early years - not to me, he sounded ok, but others would remark. I chalked this up to his large size throwing people off on his actual age.
I am going to re-read Dottie's posts about specifics on testing hearing ability from the processing perspective, and consider Jool's comment about further cognitive testing, and also take a look at the WISC v. SB-V some more.
Thanks all, and sorry for the length! I even cut some stuff out.

Nothing much to add, except that it's perfectly okay to write a lot. Don't cut! Write what you need. It's why we're all here. And if you're wrestling with an issue like this, you need to talk through it.

And, of course, I'm interested in your son's situation both selfishly and unselfishly. So I want to hear more!

Thanks everyone, lots to ponder, I really appreciate the support and info! I will definitely look into the auditory processing testing.

Well, we are going to a developmental pediatrician next thursday; referred by the regular pediatrician to find out more about possible auditory problems for ds8, and some social and attention issues.

I am going to hold off on requesting the school do an evaluation at least until after this appointment, some solid sounding advice from another thread. It just seems like the process will go much faster, and I will have more information sooner this way. Then, if I need to work with the school, I can do so with more info in hand.

I figure I will bring my list of thoughts from my above post, I have these 'vanderbilt scale' sheets on add that the regular pediatrician requested we fill out, but I will also bring copies to the dev. pediatrician.

I wish we could get the CogAT and Naglieri results from school (like, yesterday!), I think they were asking about bringing any standardized testing results. I am going to call back and make sure I understand all they do and don't want at this point. All this reminds me of the Stanford Diagnostic Math test he took in 1st grade where he got a near perfect score on the concepts part and only tried about 3 of the computation questions

And I also read this...looking at this book for the info on sibling iq similarities and found this discussion of early chronic ear infections and how this can cause problems with simpler concepts & rote memorization: computation, phonics, handwriting, spelling, but a child could still be ok with more complex things.
Dottie, maybe this is where part of what you were talking about is coming from.
Hope the link works.

Intellectual Giftedness in Young Children, L.K.Silverman, Pg 79 Severe Early Ear Infection