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    Mombot Offline OP
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    I posted in the testing thread about my dd who was recently tested by an independent evaluator. While I am so relieved that we now have proof, if you will, of an issue that's holding her back, I must be honest and admit that I'm a bit disappointed in the scores. I know, I know, it's just a number, but now I wonder if I've just been a pushy mom all this time, overexaggerating her abilities!

    I was hoping that we'd finally get confirmation once and for all of my dd's giftedness as well as an idea of what's been holding her back, but it turns out that she's just very bright according to her scores, not even plain-vanilla gifted as I had thought she was at the very least. Sure, she has some subtest scores way up there, but it's not across the board, it's not clear-cut at all. All those checklists and tables of characteristics of gifted vs. bright that I've looked at...even though my dd fit the description of gifted, she's really not. It's just a label, I keep telling myself, and she's more than just a label.

    That said, we have a very bright girl (btw, I have never labeled her as gifted to other people, I've always described her as "very bright" which I guess is the truth now, lol!) who works very slowly and is very much a perfectionist.

    Is there anyone else here, and I know this board is associated with the Davidson Inst. and from what I've read so far every one here has kids with amazingly high IQs, who has found themselves in a similar situation?


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    Food for thought, a paragraph taken from this link(http://www.helendowland.fasthit.net/What%20is%20a%20gifted%20child.htm):

    "However - experience has taught me that IQ tests are not infallible, and that there are children who are clearly gifted, who don't score highly on their IQ test. (The term "clearly gifted" is hard to explain succinctly - basically it means a child who is clearly able to do many things that are usually only done by much older children. Also see the page "How do I know if my child is gifted?") In recent years the problem with IQ tests has mostly been due to the use of out-dated or inappropriate IQ tests, because a modern test that was appropriate for gifted children wasn't available (see the explanation on the page "Testing Gifted Children"). Since 2005 the new Stanford Binet 5 test has been available, and this is the only test that should now be used for gifted children; parents should ask insistantly for this test, in order to require psychologists to move on from the much-used WISC-III, which was never appropriate to test gifted children (again, see "Testing Gifted Children").

    Even so, there are various factors that can cause a lower IQ test than a child's "giftedness" would indicate. A common reason for this is that a gifted child may have neural "glitches", which show up in the school context as Specific Learning Difficulties; these can cause the child to score lower on some subsets of the IQ test, causing the overall "IQ" to be lower. The child may therefore have giftedness that is very apparent in his/her conceptual ability and general understanding, but in some of the neural tasks that we usually take for granted s/he may have difficulty. I have included an introduction to some aspects of Learning Disabilities in gifted children on the page "Gifted Learning Disabled"; do refer to this page as it has some very helpful practical information, but also do search further because this is a vast field. Gifted children with learning disabilities are now being called "Twice Exceptional". In the case of a child who scores at a gifted level on many of the subsets of an IQ test, but scores lower on some subsets that are clearly related to dyslexia, auditory processing problems, or some other neural glitch, I always still regard that child as "gifted" - he or she is, as the new terminology says, twice exceptional - exceptional in being gifted, and exceptional in having some form of processing difficulty; such a child will need help for the issues of both these exceptionalities.

    However, sometimes the cause of low scores on an IQ test, by a child who is clearly gifted, even highly gifted, simply remains unknown. Do they think too much "outside the box", or do they have a particular nervousness in the testing situation? - unknown. In my experience cases like this are rare, but they do occur. Ultimately, if he/she seems like a gifted child, thinks like one and acts like one, s/he very probably is one."

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    Richard Feynman, clearly gifted with an IQ test score in the 120's:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman

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    Quote
    Is there anyone else here, and I know this board is associated with the Davidson Inst. and from what I've read so far every one here has kids with amazingly high IQs, who has found themselves in a similar situation?

    Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with Davidson, nor are my children in DYS. I'm just a poster who greatly appreciates the generosity of the organization to provide this free forum for exchanging information. smile

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    I don't want to request info you're not comfortable sharing, Mombot, but would you consider posting all her scores?

    I searched and found your post about her test results, but I didn't see a post containing all the scores. Sometimes getting the complete picture of the test can help make sense. Spiky profiles containing highs and lows are VERY common for GT kids.

    I think you also have to consider if there were any reasons why she might not have been having a good test day: lack of sleep, hunger, starting the test too low, starting the test too high, taking the worng test for her particular way of thinking, etc. can all affect test scores.

    A test is only a snapshot, and it's not at all hard for test results to be returned that are too low. Especially if the results don't line up with what you see, then I'd question the test before I'd question your observations. You live with her all the time. The test was one day for a couple of hours at most.

    Also, was she tested by a GT expert? That makes a BIG difference, too.

    I don't think I'd counsel you to throw up your hands and say, "Oh well, she's not GT" at this point. I think you just need more information.

    FWIW...


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    Well contemplated and well said.

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    Mombot Offline OP
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    thank you, thank you for those words. I appreciate this board so much and I've only been here a few weeks. It really helps me to put things in perspective.

    Kriston - here are her scores (she's 8y6m)

    WISC-IV Subtests and Composites

    Similarities 15 Vocabulary 15 Comprehension 11 (Information) (14) Verbal Reasoning 121
    Block Design* 11* Picture Concepts 13 Matrix Reasoning 18 (Picture Completion) (13) Perceptual Reasoning 125*
    Digit Span 11 Letter-Number Sequence 13 (Arithmetic) (15) Working Memory 116
    Coding 7 Symbol Search 9 (Cancellation) (9) Processing Speed 88
    Full Scale IQ 118 GAI 127

    The * points to the Block Design subtest where she reached her ceiling corresponding to a score of 11, but because all of her responses to that point were correct, but not within the allowed time, the evaluator continued to give her the other items and she proceeded to get all of them correct, the rest within the allowed time. Her evaluator explained that it was clear her perceptual skill was quite strong, but slow speed interfered.

    Also NWEA MAP scores (which I think I had posted already, but it might help to have it all in the same place):

    Math 89th %'ile
    Language Usage 99th %'ile
    Reading 99th %'ile
    Lexile Range 1000-1150

    I know her scores are not DYS-worthy, and probably not even on a good day would they be. Testing took 3 hours vs. the average of 2 because of her slow working speed. btw, the evaluator was very experienced with gifted kids so I think she would know but even in her emails and report, it's not ever clear if she feels my dd is or not.


    Last edited by Mombot; 09/13/08 01:56 PM.
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    Go CFK! Well Said!

    In addition here are some more of my pocket definitions of 'gifted':

    Gifted is as gifted does: If your child loves to learn and immerses herself in learning, then they are gifted. If they thrive in a learning environment designed for older kids, they are gifted.

    Gifted means that the child has special educational needs that are only occasionally met in the regular classroom. ((Note that regular varies from location to location))

    Having a gifted kid is when you would never chat with your local friends about what your child is doing - both the good and the bad, and not because you are a private person. If you have become really good at turning the topic of conversation back to what your neighbor's kids are doing and politely ohhing and ahhing, then you need to be here.

    Gifted children are not better or worse than typically developing kids, they just are on a unique developmental path, all their own.

    There is no universally accepted definition of 'what does the word gifted mean.' This forum is for everyone who wants to work together to think well about their kids.

    Mombot, your child is a gift, no matter what the lables say. If you are following her lead thoughtfully, and giving that supported push when needed, then you are doing it right.

    Love and More Love,
    Grinity


    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com
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    Mombot Offline OP
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    CFK - thank you for that reminder. I had posted the original post here after coming off reading some emails off of a listserv where there were some people who did seem to share that perspective that a child was not gifted unless she had a score 135+. It's so frustrating with cutoffs and such, which I know are needed on some level, for gifted programming that there are kids who may be more than capable but are turned away because their scores do not meet their criteria.

    I think that's what bothers me most - that these kids aren't given a chance and for those who may have underlying issues, even less so. And my dd is one of those. Her school may not have gifted programming, but my concern is that now that we have these scores, the school will feel that they have no obligation whatsoever to give her enrichment of any kind. What if that little bit more/deeper/harder might motivate her to plug through the stuff that is difficult for her? They won't know if they don't try and now they may not have a reason to. And if her weaker areas are tested as the evaluator suggests and still found to be at grade level, nothing will be done for her there either. And so my dd will continue to struggle, albeit not a typical sort of struggle because she's obviously meeting grade-level standards as seen on the MAP testing. If it takes 3 hours to do something that should only take 20 minutes, then it's a very real and valid struggle.

    Argh, rambling again. I'm sorry. This is just me having a bit of a mini-crisis.

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    I second what Dottie said. (I asked for the scores mostly because I know she can't resist them, and she's the expert! smile )

    Your DD has got some pretty tasty spikes there in the PRI, with the 18 and the time-affected 19. I think you need to find out what's going on with the speed. I think you're right, Mombot, that it is potentially an LD. You just don't see a lot of 18s and 19s in kids who aren't GT! But an LD would hold her back.

    Keep pushing. I don't think you've figured her out yet. I think there's more to understand here. I certainly wouldn't call her "not GT." I just think that's wrong!


    Kriston
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    Sure. Good point. But I still suspect there's more going on there than the test shows. I mean, her processing speed is quite low, so it's clear that there's something more going on there. At least that's how it looks to me.


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    I was also noticing that comparatively low processing speed, along with the low score in coding. I think you have good reason to pursue a neuropsych workup. I think she looks like a good candidate for the 2e kid who never gets recognized due to being smart enough to cover up her LDs and LD enough to appear "not gifted". Parents know their children best, and if you have always felt she is gifted, then chances are high that she is.

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    Mombot if you are close to the Chicagoland area and go the nueropsych route feel free to pm for names. We have three excellent children's hospitals here.

    My youngest does have the IQ numbers that would qualify her for gifted programs. She doesn't present at school the way they expect, though. So even with an IQ test that is way higher than their minimum score, the teacher attempted to bar her from gifted programming last year. It's a long story but because of the law as is, they can use whatever parameters they define worthy to identify for gifted programming, so realistically, they can deny her access in the future.

    Things are going *okay* right now, but we know there is a great chance we will homeschool her at some point. She was recently diagnosed with a learning disability, even though it doesn't appear she has one based on IQ scores.

    I can't remember if you thought homeschooling was an option or not, my brain is foggy, lack of sleep, lately.

    I guess I'm saying, please don't have a mini-crisis. smile
    There are some options available. It took me a long time to accept homeschooling as an option, I didn't think I was capable of doing it....but now I see it as a real option and I'm only slighly nervous about it. grin

    I'm a firm believer that if you can keep a semi-clear mind, don't give up, keep searching for a good solution, you will find one.

    Neato

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    Mombot Offline OP
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    Thank you again for the supportive posts. I really appreciate the insight that all of you have shared.

    re: neuropsych eval - the evaluator recommended more testing by the school - achievement and cognitive - to further define those areas of weakness (the fluency, processing speed). To have a neuropsych eval, is a doctor's referral needed? I imagine with my dd's history (she was a preemie born at 28.5 weeks gestation) that it's not a request that would be completely out of the realm of possibility. But what can the neuropsych eval do that the school wouldn't be able to give, given thorough testing? When we meet with the SpEd team sometime in the next couple of weeks, would I share with them the possibility that my dd might be seen by a neuropsych?

    My husband was at a playground build at the school this weekend and the principal talked to him about the letter of referral I sent to her on Friday and she just shook her head and said that she didn't know why homework was such a problem for our dd. From this brief exchange, it seems to me that even with the SpEd referral we initiated last year, she doesn't understand why we are still pursuing something...anything...for our dd.

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    Mombot Offline OP
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    CFK - and you can add me to the other list where you have someone with a high IQ (143) and is an underachiever. laugh

    I've always suspected that I possess some underlying LD and this underlying but not quite defined or diagnosed issue (attention, auditory processing...) seems to run in my family (my mom, my brother). Because of this, it's important to me that my own dd get the assistance she needs. Not to fulfill what went unfulfilled in myself, but because if there is an issue, which testing shows and which I have suspected since she was a toddler, I want it addressed so my dd won't have to struggle so hard and her self-esteem won't suffer. It already seems to be taking a beating - she cried the other night when doing her homework because she felt she was so slow, "the biggest slow-poke in the world" and she went on to say that I "should abandon (her) for another child who wasn't so slow." frown

    Neato - I can't say homeschooling is an option for us. We can't even get her to do her homework or let us help her so we can't see her doing schoolwork with us either, lol.

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    Ditto what Dottie says. Plus if you do it privately, you control what info the school has access to.

    About the nuero psych. Big sigh....where do I start.
    When you are very very very smart, like yourself! I believe you have an incredible ability to compensate for things like learning disability. So the slippery slope is, when is a learning disability really a disability.

    Different people have different opinions about this. I always have a hard time because I think both sides have validity.

    When a child is expressing the frustration that your child is, I would start the process.
    We did so for our DD6. She has not gone to a nueropsych yet, but has had developmental vision testing which uncovered a learning disability that I don't think the school would have ever uncovered.

    Plus a neuropsych can give you what you need to compel the school to give your daughter an IEP, if needed.

    Upon hearing of DD6's experience, our pediatrician told us L.D.'s are highly hereditary, just like giftedness is. smile

    I see what you are saying about the homeschooling. Again, DD6 is similar. When we homeschooled over the summer, though, her frustration decreased. I think because I could tailor my teaching style to the different way she learns. Once she realized this, the resistance melted away.

    Homeschooling will allow you to test her out of material she is already proficient at, which means possibly, less work for her.
    My biggest frustration with public school is that both my daughters are required to do work they are already proficient at. DD8's teacher told me: Because everyone else has to do it.
    This infuriates me to the core. Remeber that old Hulk show on T.V. when we were kids, Bruce Banner started spinning around and then turned into the hulking green monster with a big roar? Yeahhh, that's how some of those school comments make me feel. smile

    An individualized education plan either at home or school will give your daughter a more realistic education plan, whether at home or school. Hopefully. smile


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    A neuropsychologist is an MD and has a medical background with specialization in neurology that goes far beyond the knowledge of your basic school psychologist. You are much more likely to have a 2e child's disabilities recognized by a neuropsych.


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    Would a neuropsych be able to find things like the Vision Tracking problem and CAPD? Or, would you have to see a neuropsych and then specialists for those other things?

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    With all due respect, having worked for many, many years with neuropsychologists in the field of brain injury and pediatrics, I need to clarify about the qualifications/training of neuropsychologists.

    They are NOT medical doctors. There is a field of medical specialty called neuropsychiatry and that is a medical doctor. But neuropsychologists are psychologists who specialize in brain function and behavior and learning.
    (I tried to put in a link to a healthline.com article, but it didn't seem to be working. go to www.healthline.com and search for neuropsychologist, nice definition/description)

    It is best to seek a neuropsychologist when you are concerned about organic brain dysfunction, effects of head trauma and/or want to know more about how a person's cognitive function is working (ie: learning disability).

    Neuropsychologists are not necessarily educated or trained in finding visual or auditory problems. Some might be out of interest or experience, but it is not something that is typically screened or assessed by a neuropsychologist. For visual problems you are best off seeking a developmental optometrist; for auditory processing you are best off seeking an audiologist who specializes in auditory processing.

    My 2 cents based on professional experience as an OT.

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    Thank you, Debbie and Dottie, for the clarifications.

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    Just to chime in, for vision issues you'd want to see a behavioral optometrist (see www.covd.org ) and as discussed you'd want to see an audiologist if you want evaluation for CAPD. A neuropsych would merely refer you to these same people. Indeed, that's kinda how we ended up getting the vision eval for DD7 - we did IQ testing through the Gifted Development Center, and how dd answered the block design portion of the test was one reason they thought she might have a vision issue and they referred us to an optometrist. Vision therapy is controversial - many opthamologists do not "believe" in it, and most of the practicioners are behavioral optometrists (see that link - you can put in your zip code to find one near you). I think our vision eval was around $100.

    CAPD is still quite controversial among audiologists and many will not be able to do the eval for that - I think of it as a sub-specialty among audiologists. For example, my DS5 had his hearing checked by the audiologist with the school district, and from our conversation about CAPD it was apparent that she didn't know much about it. One audiologist's office we contacted about DD7, which has been dealing with CAPD for three decades (google able kids foundation, ft collins CO), believes that CAPD cannot be treated and will email their research to you. They offer an ear filter that is an accommodation. Their testing would be the most comprehensive I have come across. In contrast, the OT people at the Star Center are proponents of listening therapy (Tomatis). DD7 and DS5 both ended up having the listening therapy in conjunction with OT for SPD. It seemed to help DS5 quite a bit, according to both his teacher and speech therapist. But who knows, it's all a roll of the dice in my opinion - some people will be helped and some will not. My kids have not had an official diagnosis of CAPD and have not had the whole battery of testing, just a brief test by an audiologist in conjunction with their OT. The only reason for us to get a CAPD diagnosis would be if we wanted a 504 plan with accommodations for that. Right now they're in a montessori school, so listening in general is not much of an issue since they don't sit and listen as a class all day long. Really DS5 is the one with more of a problem in this area - and it might just be that he's too busy thinking about something to pay attention to my requests smile

    And of course other LDs could be diagnosed by a neuropsych. I admit I haven't read all the posts here. I hope this makes sense - my brain is a bit jumbled today (doesn't it seem like I'm always having one of those days?), this morning we found out that DS5 will be having surgery to release a tethered spinal cord (long story). "what's wrong with my body, mommy?" Ugh.

    Last edited by snowgirl; 09/15/08 01:47 PM.
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    oops! Sorry for my incorrect information. The neuropsych who worked with my child was an MD, so I made an assumption. It seems that neuropsychs may or may not be MDs. See the wiki article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_neuropsychologist

    A good neuropsych will notice problem areas and may suggest further treatment with a particular specialist.


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    I'm not an expert, but some relevant things I've heard since having both 2E children WISC-IV tested:

    From the Gifted Development Center (http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/):

    working memory and processing speed are not highly correlated with giftedness. In their research sample of gifted children, mean scores were:

    Verbal Comprehension Index: 131.7
    Perceptual Reasoning Index: 126.4
    Working Memory Index: 117.7
    Processing Speed Index: 104.3
    (I notice that the 1st 2 are using the WISC-III names, but seems to be talking about WISC-IV anyway)
    http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/About_GDC/whoaregiftd.htm

    A difference of 23 points or more between any 2 of the 4 composite scores means the FSIQ is "not interpretable" and should not be used.
    http://www.nagc.org/index.aspx?id=2455
    The Gifted Development Center recommends always using the GAI instead of the FSIQ to determine giftedness.
    So, ignore the FSIQ for your dd.

    If subtest scaled scores differ by 5 or more points, then that composite index is not interpretable, and should not be used. So, your dd's perceptual reasoning index is not interpretable, and the individual subscores should be considered instead. This information is from:
    Essentials of WISC-IV Assessment
    By Dawn P. Flanagan, Alan S. Kaufman
    I think this means that the GAI isn't even considered a good measure for your dd.

    by age 9 (not much older than your dd), gifted girls may be socialized to hide their abilities and may be unwilling to guess, both of which will adversely affect IQ scores.
    http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/What_is_Gifted/learned.htm

    from my experience:

    some testers would've used the scores in parentheses instead of the lowest subscore for VCI and PRI, which would significantly raise these scores (another poster mentioned something like this). this substitution is supposed to be decided before testing (of if there's a problem with administering a subtest), but there also shouldn't be a huge difference between subtests.

    I was told that auditory and visual processing problems could affect verbal and performance/perceptual composite scores, respectively. So, your dd may in fact be far more "gifted" than the scores indicate.

    My ds had top VCI scores, but 80 processing speed. Even though you wouldn't expect a "gifted" child to have PSI much above 100, this is still considered quite low, and maybe 88 would also be. DS apparently has both visual and auditory processing deficits (visual has been confirmed by a developmental optometrist, auditory is far more apparent but never taken to a specialist). He also has visual-motor deficits (why he always hated drawing assignments). He now has a 504 plan that specifies:
    . he can type instead of write (addresses visual processing deficits)
    . he does not need to draw, but can use computer art, highlight borders instead of coloring maps, or omit drawing portions of assignments (visual-motor)
    . get written notes from teacher or other student (auditory)
    . preferential seating, not necessarily front row (visual, auditory)
    . get instructions repeated when requested (auditory)
    . time and a half for tests
    . do half of homework for full credit if he shows he understands material

    This last "accommodation" isn't standard, but we convinced the school it was warranted because of his giftedness-- he does *not* need as much repetition as other students (I've read that some studies show that gifted children remember things less well if they're repeated more than 2-3 times!). Doing well on tests proves that he's done enough homework. I've listed these in hopes that it may help you if you work with the school for formal (IEP or 504) or informal accommodations.

    Hope this helps.

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    "If subtest scaled scores differ by 5 or more points, then that composite index is not interpretable, and should not be used. So, your dd's perceptual reasoning index is not interpretable, and the individual subscores should be considered instead. This information is from:
    Essentials of WISC-IV Assessment
    By Dawn P. Flanagan, Alan S. Kaufman
    I think this means that the GAI isn't even considered a good measure for your dd."

    So if Pud had in Verbal Comprehension:
    Vocabulary: 16
    Similarities: 19
    Comprehension: 9

    Does that mean the VCI is not interpretable? What if no substitute tests were given? Hmmm. Makes me wonder.

    ETA: And, yes, that stupid 9 still bothers me!


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    Hey, I just looked at the book referenced above and see that Information is part of the VCI. We do have a score for that. So, just for fun, can "information" substitute for "comprehension"?

    That would give him:
    Vocab: 16
    Simil: 19
    Information: 15

    Any idea how that would change his score (not officially, of coures, just for fun)??

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    So, if (interrupting champagne!):
    VCI 140
    PRS 123
    WMI 138
    PSI 109

    Any idea what the FSIQ or GAI would be? Should I call the psych who did the testing and ask her to refigure this?

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    PRS subtests:
    Block 15
    Picture 10
    Matrix 16

    That also makes is this a 5 point spread and therefore not interpretable? Or am I getting carried away? Unfortunately, it doesn't look like there's a substitute for this one.

    The numbers themselves don't really matter (although it would be nice to have DYS numbers) but it does explain some of the mismatch between VCI and achievement.

    Sorry, everyone, to go off topic.

    ETA: oh, and Dottie, I'd love to see how you figured it. Thanks.

    Last edited by squirt; 09/16/08 03:10 PM.
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    Very interesting, all this discussion re: test interpretation/scores.


    When I was a SLP working in the schools, it took me for. ever. to write reports because I wanted to get a complete picture of the student. Hah! I guess I had gotten it all wrong back then and was bucking the system and I didn't even know it, lol.

    update: Our SpEd referral meeting is tomorrow. Wish us luck.

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    Well, we had our meeting last week and while it didn't go as hoped, it went as expected, lol. Okay, maybe it's not that funny, but what else can you do beside expend all that energy getting mad??

    Anyway, I wish I had read more of what was on wrightslaw.com because, darnit, what this educational consultant wrote in this article, http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/advo.disagree.heiten.htm, the school pretty much did. The guidance counselor and the teacher are willing to do some trial-and-error things re: accomodations for my dd, but they're approaching it from the position that my dd is a perfectionist and parental expectations are too high, not from a 2E perspective. I just can't get them to understand that it's not just a simple behavioural issue.

    So, I've been asking around about what to do and the consensus is to get MORE private testing done and frankly, we can't afford anymore as it is. *sigh*

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