Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Possible 2E, but maybe just 1E?

I posted in the testing thread about my dd who was recently tested by an independent evaluator. While I am so relieved that we now have proof, if you will, of an issue that's holding her back, I must be honest and admit that I'm a bit disappointed in the scores. I know, I know, it's just a number, but now I wonder if I've just been a pushy mom all this time, overexaggerating her abilities!

I was hoping that we'd finally get confirmation once and for all of my dd's giftedness as well as an idea of what's been holding her back, but it turns out that she's just very bright according to her scores, not even plain-vanilla gifted as I had thought she was at the very least. Sure, she has some subtest scores way up there, but it's not across the board, it's not clear-cut at all. All those checklists and tables of characteristics of gifted vs. bright that I've looked at...even though my dd fit the description of gifted, she's really not. It's just a label, I keep telling myself, and she's more than just a label.

That said, we have a very bright girl (btw, I have never labeled her as gifted to other people, I've always described her as "very bright" which I guess is the truth now, lol!) who works very slowly and is very much a perfectionist.

Is there anyone else here, and I know this board is associated with the Davidson Inst. and from what I've read so far every one here has kids with amazingly high IQs, who has found themselves in a similar situation?

Food for thought, a paragraph taken from this link(http://www.helendowland.fasthit.net/What%20is%20a%20gifted%20child.htm):

"However - experience has taught me that IQ tests are not infallible, and that there are children who are clearly gifted, who don't score highly on their IQ test. (The term "clearly gifted" is hard to explain succinctly - basically it means a child who is clearly able to do many things that are usually only done by much older children. Also see the page "How do I know if my child is gifted?") In recent years the problem with IQ tests has mostly been due to the use of out-dated or inappropriate IQ tests, because a modern test that was appropriate for gifted children wasn't available (see the explanation on the page "Testing Gifted Children"). Since 2005 the new Stanford Binet 5 test has been available, and this is the only test that should now be used for gifted children; parents should ask insistantly for this test, in order to require psychologists to move on from the much-used WISC-III, which was never appropriate to test gifted children (again, see "Testing Gifted Children").

Even so, there are various factors that can cause a lower IQ test than a child's "giftedness" would indicate. A common reason for this is that a gifted child may have neural "glitches", which show up in the school context as Specific Learning Difficulties; these can cause the child to score lower on some subsets of the IQ test, causing the overall "IQ" to be lower. The child may therefore have giftedness that is very apparent in his/her conceptual ability and general understanding, but in some of the neural tasks that we usually take for granted s/he may have difficulty. I have included an introduction to some aspects of Learning Disabilities in gifted children on the page "Gifted Learning Disabled"; do refer to this page as it has some very helpful practical information, but also do search further because this is a vast field. Gifted children with learning disabilities are now being called "Twice Exceptional". In the case of a child who scores at a gifted level on many of the subsets of an IQ test, but scores lower on some subsets that are clearly related to dyslexia, auditory processing problems, or some other neural glitch, I always still regard that child as "gifted" - he or she is, as the new terminology says, twice exceptional - exceptional in being gifted, and exceptional in having some form of processing difficulty; such a child will need help for the issues of both these exceptionalities.

However, sometimes the cause of low scores on an IQ test, by a child who is clearly gifted, even highly gifted, simply remains unknown. Do they think too much "outside the box", or do they have a particular nervousness in the testing situation? - unknown. In my experience cases like this are rare, but they do occur. Ultimately, if he/she seems like a gifted child, thinks like one and acts like one, s/he very probably is one."

Richard Feynman, clearly gifted with an IQ test score in the 120's:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with Davidson, nor are my children in DYS. I'm just a poster who greatly appreciates the generosity of the organization to provide this free forum for exchanging information.

I don't want to request info you're not comfortable sharing, Mombot, but would you consider posting all her scores?

I searched and found your post about her test results, but I didn't see a post containing all the scores. Sometimes getting the complete picture of the test can help make sense. Spiky profiles containing highs and lows are VERY common for GT kids.

I think you also have to consider if there were any reasons why she might not have been having a good test day: lack of sleep, hunger, starting the test too low, starting the test too high, taking the worng test for her particular way of thinking, etc. can all affect test scores.

A test is only a snapshot, and it's not at all hard for test results to be returned that are too low. Especially if the results don't line up with what you see, then I'd question the test before I'd question your observations. You live with her all the time. The test was one day for a couple of hours at most.

Also, was she tested by a GT expert? That makes a BIG difference, too.

I don't think I'd counsel you to throw up your hands and say, "Oh well, she's not GT" at this point. I think you just need more information.

FWIW...

Well contemplated and well said.

thank you, thank you for those words. I appreciate this board so much and I've only been here a few weeks. It really helps me to put things in perspective.

Kriston - here are her scores (she's 8y6m)

WISC-IV Subtests and Composites

Similarities 15 Vocabulary 15 Comprehension 11 (Information) (14) Verbal Reasoning 121
Block Design* 11* Picture Concepts 13 Matrix Reasoning 18 (Picture Completion) (13) Perceptual Reasoning 125*
Digit Span 11 Letter-Number Sequence 13 (Arithmetic) (15) Working Memory 116
Coding 7 Symbol Search 9 (Cancellation) (9) Processing Speed 88
Full Scale IQ 118 GAI 127

The * points to the Block Design subtest where she reached her ceiling corresponding to a score of 11, but because all of her responses to that point were correct, but not within the allowed time, the evaluator continued to give her the other items and she proceeded to get all of them correct, the rest within the allowed time. Her evaluator explained that it was clear her perceptual skill was quite strong, but slow speed interfered.

Also NWEA MAP scores (which I think I had posted already, but it might help to have it all in the same place):

Math 89th %'ile
Language Usage 99th %'ile
Reading 99th %'ile
Lexile Range 1000-1150

I know her scores are not DYS-worthy, and probably not even on a good day would they be. Testing took 3 hours vs. the average of 2 because of her slow working speed. btw, the evaluator was very experienced with gifted kids so I think she would know but even in her emails and report, it's not ever clear if she feels my dd is or not.

Go CFK! Well Said!

In addition here are some more of my pocket definitions of 'gifted':

Gifted is as gifted does: If your child loves to learn and immerses herself in learning, then they are gifted. If they thrive in a learning environment designed for older kids, they are gifted.

Gifted means that the child has special educational needs that are only occasionally met in the regular classroom. ((Note that regular varies from location to location))

Having a gifted kid is when you would never chat with your local friends about what your child is doing - both the good and the bad, and not because you are a private person. If you have become really good at turning the topic of conversation back to what your neighbor's kids are doing and politely ohhing and ahhing, then you need to be here.

Gifted children are not better or worse than typically developing kids, they just are on a unique developmental path, all their own.

There is no universally accepted definition of 'what does the word gifted mean.' This forum is for everyone who wants to work together to think well about their kids.

Mombot, your child is a gift, no matter what the lables say. If you are following her lead thoughtfully, and giving that supported push when needed, then you are doing it right.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

CFK - thank you for that reminder. I had posted the original post here after coming off reading some emails off of a listserv where there were some people who did seem to share that perspective that a child was not gifted unless she had a score 135+. It's so frustrating with cutoffs and such, which I know are needed on some level, for gifted programming that there are kids who may be more than capable but are turned away because their scores do not meet their criteria.

I think that's what bothers me most - that these kids aren't given a chance and for those who may have underlying issues, even less so. And my dd is one of those. Her school may not have gifted programming, but my concern is that now that we have these scores, the school will feel that they have no obligation whatsoever to give her enrichment of any kind. What if that little bit more/deeper/harder might motivate her to plug through the stuff that is difficult for her? They won't know if they don't try and now they may not have a reason to. And if her weaker areas are tested as the evaluator suggests and still found to be at grade level, nothing will be done for her there either. And so my dd will continue to struggle, albeit not a typical sort of struggle because she's obviously meeting grade-level standards as seen on the MAP testing. If it takes 3 hours to do something that should only take 20 minutes, then it's a very real and valid struggle.

Argh, rambling again. I'm sorry. This is just me having a bit of a mini-crisis.

I second what Dottie said. (I asked for the scores mostly because I know she can't resist them, and she's the expert! )

Your DD has got some pretty tasty spikes there in the PRI, with the 18 and the time-affected 19. I think you need to find out what's going on with the speed. I think you're right, Mombot, that it is potentially an LD. You just don't see a lot of 18s and 19s in kids who aren't GT! But an LD would hold her back.

Keep pushing. I don't think you've figured her out yet. I think there's more to understand here. I certainly wouldn't call her "not GT." I just think that's wrong!