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    Joined: Feb 2008
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    Just to chime in, for vision issues you'd want to see a behavioral optometrist (see www.covd.org ) and as discussed you'd want to see an audiologist if you want evaluation for CAPD. A neuropsych would merely refer you to these same people. Indeed, that's kinda how we ended up getting the vision eval for DD7 - we did IQ testing through the Gifted Development Center, and how dd answered the block design portion of the test was one reason they thought she might have a vision issue and they referred us to an optometrist. Vision therapy is controversial - many opthamologists do not "believe" in it, and most of the practicioners are behavioral optometrists (see that link - you can put in your zip code to find one near you). I think our vision eval was around $100.

    CAPD is still quite controversial among audiologists and many will not be able to do the eval for that - I think of it as a sub-specialty among audiologists. For example, my DS5 had his hearing checked by the audiologist with the school district, and from our conversation about CAPD it was apparent that she didn't know much about it. One audiologist's office we contacted about DD7, which has been dealing with CAPD for three decades (google able kids foundation, ft collins CO), believes that CAPD cannot be treated and will email their research to you. They offer an ear filter that is an accommodation. Their testing would be the most comprehensive I have come across. In contrast, the OT people at the Star Center are proponents of listening therapy (Tomatis). DD7 and DS5 both ended up having the listening therapy in conjunction with OT for SPD. It seemed to help DS5 quite a bit, according to both his teacher and speech therapist. But who knows, it's all a roll of the dice in my opinion - some people will be helped and some will not. My kids have not had an official diagnosis of CAPD and have not had the whole battery of testing, just a brief test by an audiologist in conjunction with their OT. The only reason for us to get a CAPD diagnosis would be if we wanted a 504 plan with accommodations for that. Right now they're in a montessori school, so listening in general is not much of an issue since they don't sit and listen as a class all day long. Really DS5 is the one with more of a problem in this area - and it might just be that he's too busy thinking about something to pay attention to my requests smile

    And of course other LDs could be diagnosed by a neuropsych. I admit I haven't read all the posts here. I hope this makes sense - my brain is a bit jumbled today (doesn't it seem like I'm always having one of those days?), this morning we found out that DS5 will be having surgery to release a tethered spinal cord (long story). "what's wrong with my body, mommy?" Ugh.

    Last edited by snowgirl; 09/15/08 01:47 PM.
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    oops! Sorry for my incorrect information. The neuropsych who worked with my child was an MD, so I made an assumption. It seems that neuropsychs may or may not be MDs. See the wiki article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_neuropsychologist

    A good neuropsych will notice problem areas and may suggest further treatment with a particular specialist.


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    I'm not an expert, but some relevant things I've heard since having both 2E children WISC-IV tested:

    From the Gifted Development Center (http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/):

    working memory and processing speed are not highly correlated with giftedness. In their research sample of gifted children, mean scores were:

    Verbal Comprehension Index: 131.7
    Perceptual Reasoning Index: 126.4
    Working Memory Index: 117.7
    Processing Speed Index: 104.3
    (I notice that the 1st 2 are using the WISC-III names, but seems to be talking about WISC-IV anyway)
    http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/About_GDC/whoaregiftd.htm

    A difference of 23 points or more between any 2 of the 4 composite scores means the FSIQ is "not interpretable" and should not be used.
    http://www.nagc.org/index.aspx?id=2455
    The Gifted Development Center recommends always using the GAI instead of the FSIQ to determine giftedness.
    So, ignore the FSIQ for your dd.

    If subtest scaled scores differ by 5 or more points, then that composite index is not interpretable, and should not be used. So, your dd's perceptual reasoning index is not interpretable, and the individual subscores should be considered instead. This information is from:
    Essentials of WISC-IV Assessment
    By Dawn P. Flanagan, Alan S. Kaufman
    I think this means that the GAI isn't even considered a good measure for your dd.

    by age 9 (not much older than your dd), gifted girls may be socialized to hide their abilities and may be unwilling to guess, both of which will adversely affect IQ scores.
    http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/What_is_Gifted/learned.htm

    from my experience:

    some testers would've used the scores in parentheses instead of the lowest subscore for VCI and PRI, which would significantly raise these scores (another poster mentioned something like this). this substitution is supposed to be decided before testing (of if there's a problem with administering a subtest), but there also shouldn't be a huge difference between subtests.

    I was told that auditory and visual processing problems could affect verbal and performance/perceptual composite scores, respectively. So, your dd may in fact be far more "gifted" than the scores indicate.

    My ds had top VCI scores, but 80 processing speed. Even though you wouldn't expect a "gifted" child to have PSI much above 100, this is still considered quite low, and maybe 88 would also be. DS apparently has both visual and auditory processing deficits (visual has been confirmed by a developmental optometrist, auditory is far more apparent but never taken to a specialist). He also has visual-motor deficits (why he always hated drawing assignments). He now has a 504 plan that specifies:
    . he can type instead of write (addresses visual processing deficits)
    . he does not need to draw, but can use computer art, highlight borders instead of coloring maps, or omit drawing portions of assignments (visual-motor)
    . get written notes from teacher or other student (auditory)
    . preferential seating, not necessarily front row (visual, auditory)
    . get instructions repeated when requested (auditory)
    . time and a half for tests
    . do half of homework for full credit if he shows he understands material

    This last "accommodation" isn't standard, but we convinced the school it was warranted because of his giftedness-- he does *not* need as much repetition as other students (I've read that some studies show that gifted children remember things less well if they're repeated more than 2-3 times!). Doing well on tests proves that he's done enough homework. I've listed these in hopes that it may help you if you work with the school for formal (IEP or 504) or informal accommodations.

    Hope this helps.

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    "If subtest scaled scores differ by 5 or more points, then that composite index is not interpretable, and should not be used. So, your dd's perceptual reasoning index is not interpretable, and the individual subscores should be considered instead. This information is from:
    Essentials of WISC-IV Assessment
    By Dawn P. Flanagan, Alan S. Kaufman
    I think this means that the GAI isn't even considered a good measure for your dd."

    So if Pud had in Verbal Comprehension:
    Vocabulary: 16
    Similarities: 19
    Comprehension: 9

    Does that mean the VCI is not interpretable? What if no substitute tests were given? Hmmm. Makes me wonder.

    ETA: And, yes, that stupid 9 still bothers me!


    Last edited by squirt; 09/16/08 02:22 PM.
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    Hey, I just looked at the book referenced above and see that Information is part of the VCI. We do have a score for that. So, just for fun, can "information" substitute for "comprehension"?

    That would give him:
    Vocab: 16
    Simil: 19
    Information: 15

    Any idea how that would change his score (not officially, of coures, just for fun)??

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    So, if (interrupting champagne!):
    VCI 140
    PRS 123
    WMI 138
    PSI 109

    Any idea what the FSIQ or GAI would be? Should I call the psych who did the testing and ask her to refigure this?

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    PRS subtests:
    Block 15
    Picture 10
    Matrix 16

    That also makes is this a 5 point spread and therefore not interpretable? Or am I getting carried away? Unfortunately, it doesn't look like there's a substitute for this one.

    The numbers themselves don't really matter (although it would be nice to have DYS numbers) but it does explain some of the mismatch between VCI and achievement.

    Sorry, everyone, to go off topic.

    ETA: oh, and Dottie, I'd love to see how you figured it. Thanks.

    Last edited by squirt; 09/16/08 03:10 PM.
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    Very interesting, all this discussion re: test interpretation/scores.


    When I was a SLP working in the schools, it took me for. ever. to write reports because I wanted to get a complete picture of the student. Hah! I guess I had gotten it all wrong back then and was bucking the system and I didn't even know it, lol.

    update: Our SpEd referral meeting is tomorrow. Wish us luck.

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    Well, we had our meeting last week and while it didn't go as hoped, it went as expected, lol. Okay, maybe it's not that funny, but what else can you do beside expend all that energy getting mad??

    Anyway, I wish I had read more of what was on wrightslaw.com because, darnit, what this educational consultant wrote in this article, http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/advo.disagree.heiten.htm, the school pretty much did. The guidance counselor and the teacher are willing to do some trial-and-error things re: accomodations for my dd, but they're approaching it from the position that my dd is a perfectionist and parental expectations are too high, not from a 2E perspective. I just can't get them to understand that it's not just a simple behavioural issue.

    So, I've been asking around about what to do and the consensus is to get MORE private testing done and frankly, we can't afford anymore as it is. *sigh*

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