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Hi - I need a little help. I looked at DS4's preschool newsletter a bit late to find that they would be discussing God and prayer today in class. (He's at a preschool in a church, but it's designed as a not-really-very-religious preschool, so last year we didn't get into this very much at all.) Anyway, I scrambled to give him a sense of what I thought about god, and I found myself talking about The Force from Star Wars. Yikes. So, I am looking for some good books that are sort of intro to religion or just general spiritual or be kind to others sort of stuff. Anything's got to be better than a discussion of Obi Wan Kenobe...Anyone? (On the way in to class, DS said, "I bet Mrs. Teacher knows more about God than you do." I replied that I was sure she knew more about how to teach 4 yos about it, and I only told him a little bit about what I know. But i was laughing on the inside at his snide remark!)

As a background, I was raised very Catholic and got turned off my all churches in my teens and haven't gone back. DH was raised without any strong religion. DS4 has not ever attended a mass or anything (though he's been inside a few churches to check out the architecture.)

I apologize if this isn't related to gifted kids, but I'm thinking it sort of is, because he understands things a bit earlier, and he usually wants the facts about stuff, so this is tricksy. Thanks!

Thanks, but... OK - confession - i have the What is God book somewhere, but I can't find it! I haven't read it either. I will keep searching my messy house (I'm ENTP), and in the meantime, any ideas for raising a spiritual child?

(My DH cut through his extension cord with the trimmers, too, but all I remember was a lot of grumbling about having to make yet another trip to the hardware store, nothing about the Force! ) vvvvvvvuum, vvvvvvvvvim.

Personally, I think the issue of spirituality is much bigger than just God, or what we believe, or religion. It is more about how we respond to mystery. For us it has been about encouraging awe, following imagination, asking questions, looking for answers when there are answers, and accepting that there are some things humans will probably not understand.

We have explored stuff together. We found a great children's biography of Albert Schweitzer that I read him as a bedtime story. He was a wonderfully spiritual man (and clearly PG!) who ultimately found that his core principle in life was "reverence for all life." I think that really stuck with DS.

Thanks acs - I will look for the albert schweitzer biography. That sounds like a good one that will lead to some interesting discussions. I think books with the "reverence for all life" principle, and other core principles that I don't really have a grasp on, are the sort of thing i'm looking for. Or maybe even philosophy. I guess I don't really know exactly what i'm looking for, but i do know i felt pretty stupid trying to quickly explain god and faith to DS before he got it from preschool.

My experience with DD9 is that we never had "THE conversation" about God but series of discussions as she asked questions. The key for me was to reconcile my own beliefs first, since it would be difficult to say much without really figuring it out for myself. I and many of my friends in my age group grew up in some sort of organized religion so our parents did very little talking, the church did it for them. We OTOH have not followed the organized religion route but still see value in spirituality . For us, those conversations are more difficult because there is no textbook to explain spirituality. I also talk about religion in a cultural context. I want my kids to be tolerant of others and part of that is learning about religion, customs and culture.

My advice would be to keep an open conversation. Sometimes I will answer a questions with "what do you think?" and DD has reasoned things out for herself. You can also check out age appropriate books at the library that would relate to your beliefs.

Jen

Thanks Jen. As I'm reading everyone's responses, I guess I'm asking for something that doesn't exist. (Can't someone just give me the manual for how to raise a kind, thoughtful and loving child?)

But the library must have loads of stuff on religions and culture and biographies of wonderful people. So thanks for ideas. I can't wait to hear what DS has to say about what his teacher told him...

Oh, while I was searching I found this book, which sounds intriguing: Pilgrim souls : an anthology of spiritual autobiographies / edited by Amy Mandelker & Elizabeth Powers ; with an introduction by Madeleine L'Engle. Not for DS, but I think i'll check it out. ("This anthology is broken down into the four basic categories of spiritual journeys, according to the editors. 1) Wanderers and seekers--those who pursue 'all available experiences under the sun.' 2) Pilgrims and missionaries--'individuals whose life goal has been the unwavering pursuit of God.' 3) Mystics and visionaries--'who focus on supernatural experiences and epiphanies.' 4) Philosophers and scholars--those who 'demonstrate a lifelong commitment to the discernment of the truth through the exercise of the intellect.')

At his age, I'd start with whatever he brings home from preschool. Support as much of it as you can and/or want to incorporate into his beliefs; what you can't support you explain 'we are respectful of others beliefs'.

We introduced DS to greek and roman mythology first. Being a nonreligous house, he was getting a lot of mixed messages at school and confusion about who was doing what and why. So we started with mythology and creation myths from other periods and cultures. We've touched on Christianity briefly but not a lot.

You may also find some answers in "Parenting Beyond Belief" as it talks a lot about how to raise moral, ethical children outside of a religious upbringing.

OHGrammie - I think that's a very good plan to start with what he brings home from preschool. I just want to be prepared with some answers in case this comes up again.

CAMom - Yes! Parenting Beyond Belief - i think i had this book in the back of my mind as to what i was looking for when I started this post. There must have been a review I read, since i live in MN, and this is a Mpls author. Thank you.

As the pre-school likely believes, there IS a manual for how to raise a kind, thoughtful, and loving child. The Bible! :-)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that (especially since the pre-school is probably christian/bible based) it would probably be a good idea to read the Bible and decide what you believe about it, and explore what spirituality you have for yourself and then have a transparent ON GOING conversation with your son. Since you've had bad experiences with church and organized religion it may be helpful to just read the Bible without any church directing your thoughts on it or any study-group leading it. Commentaries or books may be nice but not neccessary I don't think. Just read and and see. If you believe in prayer (or even if you're not sure) try that too and see what comes of it. Let your son know you're exploring all that too and you can explore it together. Of course, with respect to others' beliefs.

I say explore the Bible for a few reasons, 1) It's the most well known and most sold religious book and what you believe about IT shapes a LOT about what you believe about lots of religions. And since it claims to be God Himself writing (through the hands of many), rather than just about God, what you believe about that makes a big difference in your spirituality. 2) It is probably what your sons pre-school is basing their spiritual teachings on so it would give you common ground about what he's learning at school. 3) It is pretty comprehensive and has an explaination for just about everything from the origin of mankind, money management, how to treat your friends and family, etc.. etc.. 4) I've read it cover to cover and nothing has shaped my understanding of God and others more than that!

Another really good book is "So what's the difference?" it's a book about the most prominant world religions but the COOLEST thing about it is that it does a compare and contrast for each one! So, not only do you get a full synopsis of the worlds most widespread beliefs but you get a layout of how they're different from eachother, where those differences came from, how they're similar and how they were founded. It's a fascinating book!

There is also a lot out there by a guy named Josh McDowell and onother named Lee Strobel. Both adress the Bible, Faith, and Creation from a sceptics perspective. They focus on evidence and compare a lot of different views to eachother. They are excellent. (Both started out as athiests too and after searching out evidence against God found a faith).

I agree that this does effect gifted children a little differently too. They explore depth more and earlier. It's fascinating! Everything's different with them!

I like that advice Brittany. At one point in my life I got sick of everyone telling me what the bible said, so I read it myself, focusing on the New Testament.

It's been a journey, so in the mean time St. Pauli Girl:

I study theology(loosely!), I've read the New Testament several times, was raised Catholic, left the church, studied at non-denomination churches, returned to Catholicism, am currently studying psalms and teach first grade religous ed, so I am great with one-liners!

I get the Catholic gone wrong thing, and have a pretty broad perspective, so feel free to ask me quick questions while you are investigating what you want to do. There is NO reason your child needs to think his pre-school teacher knows more than you! What a horrid thought!

Feel free to private message me. For what it's worth, I always tell my student that if they tell their parents something we learned and the parent says: "We don't believe that!"- always go with what your parent says.....

Ah, yes, I went to Catholic school from 4th through 12th grade, and even though I'm not religious at *all*, I like to know what the Bible says and be able to interpret it from myself -- and I like to be able separate Church dogma from the actual text of the Bible.

So I also suggest reading the Bible, or even take a theology class! There's loads of interesting stuff to be learnt, even if you don't subscribe to all of it.

For us, I tell KG that people have many different beliefs, and that's one of them. I also tell him about people I believe were good, kind people to model one's life after -- including Jesus, who loved people and was as non-judgemental as they come.

When DD8 was in first I think I was asking her to help out a child who was having a hard time making friends and she patently refused. Curious, as she had always loved this kind of mission in the past.

So, I threw out the all powerful: "What would Jesus do?"

She thought for a minute and said: "He'd probably do it".

Well at that point the corners of my mouth began to curl up into the beginnings of an oh so smug smile when she immediately fired:

"But I'm not Jesus". And walked away.

Who is the master and who is the teacher?

BTW Mia, I think that is a perfect way to describe beliefs.

I think you give good advice. It has been long enough for me, i should indeed read the bible again. My mom was in bible study a few years back; i'm sure she'll have some recommendations for me. (Although i still tend to be cynical about certain things, like when i heard from a friend they were teaching a song about "taking away my sins" to 4 year-olds in vacation bible school - those sinful little preschoolers!) My comment was a reference to the bible - didn't you see my winking guy?

When I tried to get info about what happened in preschool today, all i got was his standard joke "we just sat in the corner and did nothing." So if there was any discussion of God today, I don't have to deal with it yet!

Thanks 'neato.

I've been able to avoid too much related to religion for years, simply because our friends and family aren't too religious either. This was one of my more successful experiments in denial. But this darn preschool business popped up! For the most part, if anything comes up, I try to give several examples of what different people believe.

Mia - I like that you teach about people who were nonjudgmental. That is a wonderful quality to try to instill.

Everyone - thanks for all the advice and input. I didn't mean to make this into a discussion of religion too much (we might get kicked off the board for that!), but I truly appreciate all the resources. I think as parent of gifted kids, we have to deal with a lot of heavier issues at a much earlier age, so I knew you'd all understand.

I'm wondering if you would be dissatisfied with a bible study environment. I'm in one now, but I had gone through the process of seeing for myself, KWIM?

As a cradle Catholic, I was hypersensitive to what the bible says vs. what is your opinion about what it says.

I loved re-reading the new testament as an adult. I think you'll find it much different then reading it as a youth and in a class.


Good luck.

We left the non-denomination church because they started asking the little kids to invite friends from school to church.

You have to be comfortable with what your kids are being told, but sometimes I have to laugh because of some of the shite they came home with from the public school that had nothing to do with religion, yet was still troublesome!

Of course we understand! I see what you mean about the religous discussion. I hope I haven't offended anyone by stating my position as a Catholic and a Christian. I'm about as open minded as you can get concerning this stuff and accept all views and beliefs. If I've offended anyone in the least, I apologize.

Oh - I didn't mean a bible study class - i meant my mom would be able to recommend a good version of the bible. Heaven forbid I'd join a bible study class! You are correct - i would not be comfortable.

Yeah, you don't need it. You are clearly intelligent enough to suss through it on your own! I'd assume the same for most of the audience here.

Aw, thanks.

Oh, something I forgot to mention. Back to the original post where I mentioned using The Force to explain God -- we did have a Star Wars moment after class today. At the grocery store, there was a display of clone wars books by the cash register. DD4 starts doing the darth vader baddie music "duh duh duh, dum dum dum, dum dum dum." He got a few smiles. I was so proud.

Here St. Pauli girl, to redeem myself:



Chemical Brothers vs. John Williams
Galvanize the Empire.

Love it!

Great conversation. I'd like to add a thought. I teach sunday school at our parish, and the book we use for kindergarten level is called God is Love. I think that title is very true and works across the board for many many religious perspectives as a good start to a chat.
As for some deeper food for your own thoughts, you might consider the writings of St. Augustine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo

Good luck finding your balance!

DS6 came home from school a couple of months ago announcing that he'd had to set his friends straight about their religious beliefs. It goes: earth, atmosphere, space. No heaven - he's seen the photos from space. And people don't really fly, so clearly no angels either. I thought it was quite funny, but followed up with a bit of a talk about the various things people believe. We're not religious, but think it's important to understand where other people are coming from.

For exposure to something different as a conversation starter - do you get Monkey in the States? It hasn't screened here (Aus) for a long time, but we were lent the first season's episodes and the boys loved them. Mostly for the monsters and fight scenes, but they were also interested in Buddha, the Jade Emperor, Bodhisattva etc, and why Monkey et al were sent on their pilgrimage.

We had to get into religion because we live in a very evangelical neighborhood. Easter was a rough time for us. Even though I was raised Baptist, I'm not sure your average 4 year old should be told the story of Easter in such a graphic way! DS was certain there were ghosts in our house watching him, that all dead people come to haunt you and that if you're weird, you will get killed in front of a crowd. Not the intended message I know... but what his 4 year old brain extracted from it.

I think sometimes the best thing to stick to in these situations is a "What do you think?" and see where it goes from there. We're also very careful to say "Mommy and Daddy believe... but... others think... and you can make up your own mind."

I agree wholeheartedly. And if you can expose them to the beliefs of others beyond Christianity, so much the better!

I think it pays to remember that Christians are in the minority in the world. While it is important to understand Christianity in order to be culturally literate in the U.S., there are other options available. And there are plenty of good, moral people who aren't religious at all.

As an adult, I met a man who had a Jewish mother, Catholic father and on Saturdays he practiced one religion, on Sundays the other. Poor child...

Anyway, he got a lifelong love of the differences of religion and taught a very popular class at some Protestant church. He brought in speakers from various religions and talked about them.

DH and I were both brought up Catholic, me not so strict, he altar boy, though claims athesim now. DD refuses to enter a church, though she is baptized.

We were thinking we need to go this family mass to get her introduced to religion but music class conflicts.

Anyway, we watch the Fantasia video and it does introduced the myths, so I forgot who recommended that path, but it was an excellent way to introduce the concepts of believes in "gods".

We do grace, DH, despite his atheism, does the traditional, when he is not there, I do a spiritual version. DD seems to like mine and asks me, when we are alone, about what I am saying and why.

She seems to like spiritualism because it allows everyone to believe what they want and then understand that everyone can have their own story as backdrop.

Ren

Good conversation. I think this all confirms for sure that especially in this culture it is extremely important for us each to read the Bible (especially to the New Testiment) and understand it for ourselves. Trusting others to tell you what is says and what "spirituality" is all about is just the Blind leading the Blind I'm afraid (hey! That's in the Bible :-))
I think that's a really good starting point. It also seems that it lends God the chance to reveal Himself. Again... not relying on others to reveal Him.
Good. good.

Yes - what Kriston said, as usual (and CA mom too). We are UU. And that's exactly how we phrase everything to DS and DD - this is what we think, this is what others think, you're free to develop your own brand of spirituality. That you can draw wisdom and inspiration from many sources. DS knows about as many stories about Buddha as Jesus. I think especially for GT kids that are thinking hard about this at very young ages, it's important to know where you as a parent stand! I remember being thrown for a loop when DS had about 6 months when he was approaching 5 where he had so many hard, hard questions about the universe and death. Now his sister is starting. It is feeling easier the 2nd time! I have my answers down.

I agree, kimck. And, um, just a general reminder: not everyone here is a Christian.

While I believe that a familiarity with Christianity is necessary to be culturally literate in the United States, that does NOT mean that I believe everyone should read the Bible. That's two very different things! Cultural literacy means that you recognize that there's some Christian symbolism in The Chronicles of Narnia. Reading the Bible, at least as it is being discussed in some of the posts here, is religious instruction. That's not appropriate for this forum.

I feel like we're bordering upon evangelism in some of the posts here, and it's making me very uncomfortable, especially for my friends on the forum who are wonderful, caring, spiritual people, and are not Christians. Could we beware of making assumptions?

Thanks.

I stand behind my suggestion -- the Bible is a fascinating read! And I'm not remotely, remotely religious. It *has* been instrumental in Western society, whether one believes the text literally, figuratively, or not at all. So I think it's one of those things that are useful to have in your back pocket.

On that note, I wish I could say I've read more religious books, but I just haven't. I wanted to take a Religions of Southeast Asia class in college, but I couldn't make one fit *ever*! I was sorely disappointed.

On my list of things to do: Read religious manuscripts.

Now, see, that I can buy into.

I was a religion and philosophy double-minor in college. I did read the Bible, but I also read lots of other stuff from lots of other points of view. That works for me, just as it works for you, Mia!

I just don't want this thread to turn evangelical and become unpleasant for people of other faiths. This forum has always been very inclusive. I want that to continue.

Wow, lots of interesting discussion. My thoughts are that it is good to figure out what your thoughts and beliefs are first, and then have a discussion. If you don't know answers that they have...then look into it. And chances are some things will be difficult to explain. Christianity is important to us, I teach at our church (well more like sing since it's 6mo olds to 17 month olds) and DS goes to class. He often has cute little kid questions (like when he whispers he wonders if God can hear him). But some questions are harder to explain answers to. I do my best...but how do you explain to a child (or an adult) how God can be everywhere or do anything...or why he doesn't do some things. It's a challenge but it is fun. Often times when you are a part of a religion, morals and values come along with it and there is a lot of character building in classes at church. I also agree with some of the other posters about reading the Bible without other people giving their interpretations. Also if you want to teach bible stories and character building, etc. you can get little kids books. We have a few, someone just gave us a book called "3 minute bible stories" it seems pretty good. There are tons of great books out there.

But, that being said....there are other ways to do character building and raise a child with great values and morals unrelated to religion. So even before having any specific belief system you can teach the whole "treat others how you want to be treated" Although it is a Christian principle...it is fairly accepted belief among most people regardless of faith.

I think this is the driving principal behind all religions, and what I try to instill in my ds. It's not a Christian principle ... it's a *human* principle.

And don't forget your wonderful, caring, non-spiritual, atheist friends!

Is empathy a value in all cultures?

Reciprocity is certainly a unifying principle in game theory, but it may be more honored as in an eye for an eye, rather than preventing harm to others!

I've had discussions on Morals with Chinese, Hindus, tribal Africans, and Pashtuns. While they may reach many or some of the same results, the methods and justifications are very different. Some things are very strange, too.

Interestingly, most non-Western cultures never discovered Logic and are incapable of valueing an abstract discussion and hence Truth does not exist. ( OTOH, Truth does not lock them in, either. )

This has been an intersting conversation, I see that discussing theological ideology can be touchy. But, I don't think anyone has said one belief is better than the other or dissed anyone, right?

I actually like that I can say I'm a big Christ groupie and Cathy expresses she is an atheist.

I think Cathy rocks, it has nothing to do with whether or not she is spiritual, atheist.....etc.

We can have different views, even on such a loaded subject, yet like and respect each other for a multitude of other reasons.

Right Cathy? (please say yes, please say yes, please say yes)

You know I wouldn't be hanging around here if I didn't like and respect the other posters.

The title of this thread caught my eye because my kids ask lots of questions about religion, too. But I have hesitated to post my own thoughts on the topic. I agree that in order to answer your kids' questions you need to have answered those questions for yourself first.

Them, too!

(Though I think even atheists can be spiritual people. Maybe the spirit is the human spirit, but I don't think atheism precludes a sense of spirituality, as in being a part of something bigger than one's self.)

Anyway, I'm glad you're speaking up, Cathy. Thanks for that!

You know, now that I think about this some more, I'm not sure I agree. I have a lot of questions about my beliefs--far more questions than answers, actually! It's one of the reasons that I've not really settled on a religion, though I would like to find one that suits me and I definitely consider myself a person who needs some sort of spiritual outlet. But really, I feel pretty okay with having more questions than answers. I mean, no one actually has certainties about these matters! We have beliefs and hopes and guesses, but we're all human. We don't KNOW the answers. The whole point of religion is to guide our beliefs and hopes and guesses. Of course we should share our faith with our kids. But it is human also to have questions, and I think we should share those, too.

I mean, the reason that kids ask these big, deep, philosophical questions is the same reason that all the world's religions deal with them in one way or another: because they're unknowable, unanswerable. The only answers available to us come out of faith, which is a process, not a destination. So I think it's okay to say, "Here's what we know, here's what we believe, and here's where I still have questions." It's honest, it's real, and it's a valuable portrait of a person trying to answer those same questions that the child is asking.

We don't feel that we have to have all the answers to the other questions our kids ask, but we still help them to find answers, right? Why are religion and morality any different? Why can't "I don't know, but I'm trying to figure it out" be an acceptable response?

Sorry. I don't mean to get all philosophical on you over a throw-away comment, Cathy. But it struck me when I read that line that it may be all this certainty that's my problem. If I don't have certainty, I think I can still share my spiritual journey with my child in a very effective fashion!

At least I hope so, since that's what I'm doing...

Kriston, I understand what you mean about having asnwers. I think I said something like what Cathy said in one of my earlier posts. For me, what I meant was not that I had to know that answers, but that if I gave an answer, then it had to ring true to me when I said it. I started out giving the answers I thought I was supposed to give, answers I thought my minister might want me to give. But I realized that they kind of stuck in my throat. And I realized that my kid could tell I didn't actually believe it. And I really didn't want to send the message that it is OK to pretend that you know what you don't know and that it OK to believe stuff just because the guy in the black robe says it and that it is OK for a mother to say something that they don't think is true just because it is the easy answer. That's what I mean about having answered those questions for myself (Cathy may mean something else--I'm speaking for myself here). "I'm not sure" and "I don't know" are often the most honest answers for me. I know what I don't know.

But I know plenty of people who don't know what they know well enough to know that they don't know what they don't know. (yikes. sorry about that sentence). And I think, especially for gifted kids, no good comes from faking this stuff--they know when you're faking.

By "answer" I didn't mean something concrete. Your thoughts, i.e. "The only answers available to us come out of faith, which is a process, not a destination," would fit within my idea of an answer.

I've told my kids what I believe and I've explained that most other people believe in God in some form. Of course, they want to know why someone would believe in God and why people pray, etc. We have talked about how there are many different religions but most share some common features. They enjoy reading Greek and Norse mythology and Bible stories.

For myself, I don't really have a spiritual journey to share unless you count coming to the realization that I am not a spiritual person. If they are spiritual people, they will have to discover that for themselves. I can't fake it.

-Bingo, yes. Whatever you believe, it should be authentic, IMHO.

Questions about religion are just one small set of questions that cannot be answered at this time with our current state of knowledge.

There is nothing wrong with not knowing the answers - having the question and knowing that there is room for a question is a good first step!

I stand by my suggestion too. I think to imply that the Bible has only minor cultural value with an example like the Chronicles of Narnia and stuff is a vast understantment.
To share a depth of knowledge with our gifted kids it is important to realize certain huge things like the Bible are far more influential than that.
Chronicles of Narnia was written in England. The U.S. culture, however, is influenced by the Bible in ways that are so far reaching: the Constitution was based on it (it was used as a working document in the constitutional convention, verses are all over our monuments, the list goes on forever. Many other religions hold a root with Biblical people or the Bible itself. Latter Day Saints include the Bible in their doctrine, Islam traces their fathers back to Abraham of Genesis just like Jews and Christians do.
For a gifted child who thinks about what he's taught at school and at home on very deep levels and will have a lifetime of doing so, I firmly believe a thorough knowledge of the Bible... the most influential book of all time is priceless.

One interesting thought too though is that most religions/belief systems that do regard the Bible as their authority share that fact with others (call that witnessing/evengelism or whatever) because the Bible itself tells them to. It is a practice of their faith that they concider to be a loving gesture. I don't see anything wrong with being tolerant of that too.

It is great that all can talk freely on both sides. I respect everyone here for discussin this so openly and honestly without getting nasty or rude. It is a great freedom in this country to be able to do so! Very helpful to because our children, especially the gifted ones :-) wrestle with this stuff a lot! What's a mom to do if we can't get on here and talk it out!

While I respect your point, I think you'll find the general consensus is that the community of posters here are not here to be evangelized too. I'm sure there are wonderful and engaging forums where that is respected and appreciated.

When one persists in witnessing to another who has expressed that it is not their desire to be accepting of it, it ceases to be a loving gesture and indeed beomes a force of one's will and indeed, I could assert one is then placing one's will above God's will.

You are indeed a lovely person, I enjoy your posts and look forward to your contributions to this community. Respecting the spiritual/lack there of(Love ya Cathy ) diversity of this community, I'd like to ask you to share your self and experiences without evangelizing. We're all pretty great adults who are capable of finding our own way.

Dissenting opinions welcome:

I could very well be the most opinionated evangelical on this board, but I have to say I agree 100% with your post. We can discuss methods of sharing beliefs without discussing what we believe, and why. PM's are always available to discuss things in more depth. Thank you for summing up this discussion very well!

Me too. I've always been non-spiritual, even as a kid when my parents took me to church. I just didn't get it. I prefer to let my kids determine the personal importance of these questions for themselves. I can't fake it and don't want to.


I agree. Thanks for saying this so well.

Val

Well, I do think there is a slight flaw in assuming that God's will changes based on what a human wants or doesn't want. They can choose what they want it doesn't mean that God will now want that for them as well.
That said. Your point has some validity to it, yet seems quite unneccessary. I don't think anyone is forcefully willing anything on anyone. Let's remember the original question:


Those of us that answered believed that it DID indeed pertain to gifted kids because of all that they go through early on.

This question started a lot of input of different resources, study ideas, how to discuss with a young one, etc. All contributers gave something they think is valuable and has probably helped them. So, they wanted to share. That is all whitnessing is.
Do you see what I'm saying? It is simply sharing a resource. Whether it be eternal life through Christ or an earthly materialist religion that Jane Doe has chosen... if you share about it you are whitnessing.

So, for us to all be kind and tolerant to everyone here about every book that was offered up, every class, every religion, every view, every whitness, and then to single out someone that suggested the Bible -because of it's huge effect on the world, the fact that the kid mentioned will be greatly exposed to it, that a knowledge base from mom would be helpful, and it is something they've found valuable- is, frankly intolerant, and, okay.... I'll say it... rude.

I'm sorry. I'm not really offended because this is so common in our culture. I hope I don't sound upset because I really am not... and I know you guys mean the best for each other... but it had to be said. I think calling what you all do "advice" and then saying that talking about the Bible is forcing ones will on others is quite a double standard. I know no one realized that... I'm not blaming anyone... I just think we should all be aware.
To suggest that someone with THAT advice specifically should go talk about it somewhere else is intollerant. Not to mention no one here ever said they didn't like the idea of reading the Bible to get some ideas on spirituality and really didn't want to hear that idea. So I don't think that's really applicable either.

Obviously each of us here feels that our advice/idea was good or we wouldn't have shared. I think we can all enjoy ALL of the other comments still. Seems pretty simple to me. Should be a non-issue. We all simple answered the question how we saw best. I think that's all St. Paulie Girl wanted. (and it's all our respective gods or selves probably wanted too :-)

And by the way, I appreciate that even with "accidental intollerance" as I guess I would call it... you all do seem to make a real effort to be nice. I think that's admirable and I appreciate it!

I've defintely been confronted with PURPOSEFULL intollerance... and they are not so nice.

SO thanks for that.

Actually, I think Brittany has a point about the bible and study and gifted kids.

I had a friend doing bible study and it was so illogical. You had to accept contradicting ideas as a matter of faith and math that didn't work. Present the ideas and then get your child to figure out why it sounds illogical. There are many samples throughout the bible. Because the bible was really written in the dark ages to act as a political tool and those guys were not dealing with the most educated public, so it didn't matter whether it made sense. The average 6 year old gifted kid could have a lot of fun with it.

So I really think it could be a cool exercise, except for those non Christians damned to the fires of hell.

Ren

[quote=WrenSo I really think it could be a cool exercise, except for those non Christians damned to the fires of hell.
[/quote]



Since i'm the original poster, i'll come back to comment. I didn't get the impression that anyone was trying to push their religious views. I found it a healthy conversation. And I got loads of useful information, and I enjoyed reading everyone's posts.

In my hastily typed original post, I didn't realize I would open up so much discussion, but I'm glad it did. I now am more encouraged to find resources that describe the similarities and the differences of many types of religions and philosophies.

The end.

Brittany, you may have misinterpreted my point. God gave free will. That's a huge one, does it make more sense now?

I want to know where you are coming from, could you clarify this for me? :

.

I just have an opinion, just like you. I don't think either of us are rude. Am I missing something?

Thanks,
Neato

I think you may have misunderstood what other posters were speaking about. (Others, please correct me if I'm wrong here).

I understood that people here were asking "How can I let my child learn about different belief systems?" The discussion as I saw it was in a neutral way. No one was advocating a particular belief system. To me, at least, your messages came across as promoting one system over others.

For example, your post quoted above contrasts "eternal life through Jesus" with an "earthly materialist religion" (whatever that means?). To me, this statement, as well as others you've made, come across as judgmental and favoring one belief system over another. Other messages that say "I'll look at that book that someone recommended" didn't come across that way. The other posts discuss religious beliefs in a neutral manner. Yours don't.

Witnessing is defined as evangelism for the purpose of converting people to christianity. It is not a neutral approach. I'm not convinced by your assertions that you're simply "sharing" when everything I've read about witnessing indicates that its purpose is to convert new believers. This is what other posters were asking we avoid.

Also, you've stated you were "single[d] out" because you brought up the bible. This statement is false. Many people mentioned the bible. The point we're discussing now was that someone asked, in a polite and constructive way, that we all avoid evangelizing. I think that's fair.

And if you weren't evangelizing, there shouldn't have been anything to get upset about, right?



Val

Val
Oh no... I don't think that I was just singled out. It seemed like at a few different points anyone who mentioned Christianity and the Bible specifically were told they were being too specific or evengelistic. I don't feel like I was the only one people got defensive toward. I just wanted to defend that as a whole. It wasn't just about me. I think some of the Bible talk was also because the child involved actually goes to a religous pre-school.. probably a biblical or christian one. It seem even more relevant than usual.

Part of my point, I guess, is that most people think that whitnessing means to try to Convert just like you said. But really it's just a matter of sharing what you've found, lovingly. The rest is up to GOd. one human cannot convert or change another. I don't think that's my place or anyone elses. So, by your definitions of trying to change people... that's not what I do. I just say what's on my mind! In my own faith I believe that's what I should do. And my comparison is that that's what we all do here and on other topics. THat should be okay.

Also, Materialism is a valid religion and is the base of other off-shoot religions. It is the belief that there is NOTHING but the material. No spiritual, no super-natural. It's also the starting point for stuff like the Matrix (some people believe this is all a dream coming from our material selves... in our dreams we can come up with spiritual stuff tha's not real but feels real to us in our dreams etc... etc...) So, all that to say my mentioning Materialism as a comparison to the beliefs of evangelical Christians ("eternal life through Jesus") was to show from one to another and all in between I don't see why we can't all talk about any and all of it. I think becuase one sounded prettier to you than the other it made you think I was being condescending about the one you didn't recognize... that's not at all the case. Hope that clarifies.

And, neato, when you said:

"When one persists in witnessing to another who has expressed that it is not their desire to be accepting of it, it ceases to be a loving gesture and indeed beomes a force of one's will"

It sounded like you were accusing someone... i don't know who neccessarily, maybe me, maybe someone.... of being forceful with their beliefs. It sounded like you were telling someone off like they had wronged someone. I don't think anyone was doing that. I thought everyone had done just fine. Also, you had mentioned people expressing it was not their desire to accept it. I never saw anyone say something like that or ask someone to stop saying something or anything like that. So, it seemed hyperdefencive of a non-issue.
Maybe your statement was hypothetical? It just seem accusatory and I thought that was a little rude because it seemed like everyone was giving and taking advice really well and then you singled out the suggestion of the Bible as bring "forcefull" and stuff. and I just didn't see that being the case.

And the "rude" comment was also in regards to saying there are probably some wonderful boards out there where that is respected and appreciated... I thought it seemed intollerant that one view point about how the Bible should be checked out when exploring spirituality was singled-out as something that should go somewhere else.

I would have no problem still talking with someone that suggested other books are a must-have when learning about religions. I wouldn't ask them to take it somewhere else.

oh and p.s.

I dont think any of us should be required to be neutral. we all have our oppinions for a reason. We all like to promote them.

I promote homeschooling because I believe in it.
I promote John McCains approach to education because I believe its right.
I promote the Bible because I've studied it and it's flawlessly useful in every way.
I promote Jesus, too... that that's okay.
I promote breastfeeding.
I promote gifted programs.

I believe in all these things and find them relevant to gifted kids and all kids.

We are all on here sharing what we find VALUABLE. That's the point. Sharing resources. Sharing what we find valuable. I have seen plenty on here that is against what I believe. Plenty that I don't choose to accept. But it's really okay.

We should all have some freedom of speach here and enjoy it!

All views, whether they be expressed neutrally or ignite passion in some and not others should be allowed.

Sorry St. Paulie girl... i agreed with your last post completely.

I saw your THE END and thought it was a good ending.

I have to say thank you Brittany. I thought this was one of the funniest things. Maybe you didn't mean it to be funny but I thought it was hilarious.

I read it to DH and it thought it was terribly funny also.

Neato, you have to admit this was funny.

Ren

I guess I disagree with you here. Most of us explicitly do NOT promote things on this board. For example, the homeschoolers tend to say "it's the best option for MY CHILD(REN)" without promoting it for the children of others. In fact, I've seen many posts that explicitly say "what works for me and my kids may not work for yours."

No one here even promotes gifted programs, from what I've read. We discuss them, cite what we see as their good points and bad points, and talk what we see as strengths and weaknesses of other education programs. Yet I don't recall seeing a lot of promotional statements about any one program.

The point here is that we're all aiming for a balanced discussion. We avoid calling one another intolerant and keep the tone even. For me, this is one of the great strengths of this group (that and the extreme displays of intelligence and thoughtfulness that I see in so many of you here!).

I guess I think promoting one idea over another gets in the way of all that. Again, this is what other posters were getting at, in my opinion.

Val

Yes, there is a difference between sharing and promoting.

I'd also like to point out that materialism is not a religion.

Okay. fair enough.

I can see where you're coming from because I agree that what definitely works for one kid doesn't work for another. When I say I promote homeschooling, certain programs, etc... I don't mean to imply that they are universal solutions to every problem. Those two, after all, are not even co-existant unless your kid attends a gifted class all day then homeschool all night :-)

I guess I think there is room for both kinds of opinions. I think some things are relative to the child and the family situation and other things it's okay to state that you are not a neutral party on.

I do think that a thorough knowledge of the Bible is usefull for ANYone... even if they chose not to ascribe to it. At least they checked it out and can speak intellegently on the issue AND can say wholeheartedly that they do or do not believe in God/Jesus/Bible.
I am not neutral in that position. I just think it's a good thing for people to read up on.

I think that's okay.

It is a little funny that this has gone on so much when I think most of us actually agree a lot more than we disagree on this. I think some of it has been misunderstandings on what a person was getting at. But that's okay. I appreciate those of you that talk it out nicely and clarify. I apologize if something I've said was not clear or came accross in a way other than what I meant.

I hope you all understand that my suggestion is that people search out spiritual issues (including what they think about the Bible and anything else) for themselves. AND that that suggestion, as well as all others, should be seen as just that... a suggestion of a resource and nothing to worry about.

SO, that's what I was TRYING to say all this time in a nutshell. Of course, you may take it or leave it.

Oh, Kathy, because in order to be a materialist you have to trust that material is eternal or self-creating many people consider that a faith of some kind (because it's not possible to prove). I guess it should be called a "faith" or a "belief system"... unless you use to try to practice mind over matter etc... then I think it usually qualifies as a religion....
But I know many others consider it not to be. That's fine. It was to demonstrate the range of veiws on the issue and how I think all can be discussed just fine.

I just can't say enough how much I appreciate the people on here that are mature enough to talk nicely about this. It's tricky! But you guys rock!

Absolutely not, I'm sorry you misinterpreted that.



Brittany, I'm dissappointed you are implying that I am rude or intolerant.
I was just trying to be nice to you.

Well, you are right about this:


Phew, I'm glad that's all cleared up, I agree, let's end this conversation.

Peace,
Neato

Brittany, materialsim is not based on faith. Neither is atheism. I recommend that you read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. It contains an excellent discussion of these topics.

Well, remember that what I said was based on me thinking you were accusing someone. I think I understand now and I'm pretty sure you didn't mean to accuse or single anyone out. It came across that way and I'm sorry if that was just a misunderstanding.

Please no hard feelings because I do see that you are trying to be nice and I think you are way awesome! Probably one of my favorite people in the whole wide web! :-)

Thanks so much!

ditto on THE END :-)

Okay friend, I'm glad we cleared that up because I DID feel very bad and would have worried about it all weekend! I AM sorry that I came off the wrong way.

Normally I would have respected your final, the end, except to tell you I am relieved.

I believe that a belief that all this exists without a beginning or a cause takes faith because faith is simply believing in something you cannot prove (I think that's a pretty common definiton).
And if everything has a beginning or a cause except eternal material that means an exception to all the rules we know... it's difficult to trust that so it takes a little extra... what I would call faith. I don't know what name you'd give it but I see that my definition (listed above) could easily NOT be what you feel the word "faith" means. So, I guess I don't have another name for it. Trust? I donno...

I am familiar with that book but I don't think I've read the whole thing before. I am interested in it. I should check it out. Thanks.

Awesome! You rock.

another END ??? :-)

You are assuming that atheists believe there is "no beginning" and/or "no cause". That's the faulty assumption.

OK I did this with Politics. When it goes off gifted linkage, PM please. This thread is getting ridiculous.

And this one isn't even in general discussion.

ren

I agree. It's getting off topic. I will stop posting in this thread.

Well, that assumption is often the case... however, like I said I know that some believe in eternal matter. It didn't have a cause it just always was... and it eventually formed the universe or whatever. Either way it's no cause... or caused by something that was always there and therefore... had no cause.

Those are the only athiest explainations that have ever been explained to me. If you have another one I'd be interested in hearing it. Pm if you like. I really am interested in all views on that subject.

me to. People can pm me if they like.

I so tried to stay on the topic of how this effects our kids.

:-)

If you wish to continue this discussion, please do so through private messaging. In a public gifted education/parenting forum such as this one, it is important that we stay on topic. Especially in the Parenting and Advocacy forum, this thread has shifted far from the purpose of this board. I am locking the thread.

If you have any questions, please send me a PM. If you are unaware of how to do so, email me at mdlugosz@davidsongifted.org and I can assist.

Best,
Mark