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    Joined: Jun 2008
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    And by the way, I appreciate that even with "accidental intollerance" as I guess I would call it... you all do seem to make a real effort to be nice. I think that's admirable and I appreciate it!

    I've defintely been confronted with PURPOSEFULL intollerance... and they are not so nice.

    SO thanks for that.

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    Actually, I think Brittany has a point about the bible and study and gifted kids.

    I had a friend doing bible study and it was so illogical. You had to accept contradicting ideas as a matter of faith and math that didn't work. Present the ideas and then get your child to figure out why it sounds illogical. There are many samples throughout the bible. Because the bible was really written in the dark ages to act as a political tool and those guys were not dealing with the most educated public, so it didn't matter whether it made sense. The average 6 year old gifted kid could have a lot of fun with it.

    So I really think it could be a cool exercise, except for those non Christians damned to the fires of hell.

    Ren

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    [quote=WrenSo I really think it could be a cool exercise, except for those non Christians damned to the fires of hell.
    [/quote]

    laugh

    Since i'm the original poster, i'll come back to comment. I didn't get the impression that anyone was trying to push their religious views. I found it a healthy conversation. And I got loads of useful information, and I enjoyed reading everyone's posts.

    In my hastily typed original post, I didn't realize I would open up so much discussion, but I'm glad it did. I now am more encouraged to find resources that describe the similarities and the differences of many types of religions and philosophies.

    The end. smile

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    Quote
    When one persists in witnessing to another who has expressed that it is not their desire to be accepting of it, it ceases to be a loving gesture and indeed beomes a force of one's will and indeed, I could assert one is then placing one's will above God's will.

    Brittany, you may have misinterpreted my point. God gave free will. That's a huge one, does it make more sense now?

    I want to know where you are coming from, could you clarify this for me? :

    Quote
    So, for us to all be kind and tolerant to everyone here about every book that was offered up, every class, every religion, every view, every whitness, and then to single out someone that suggested the Bible -because of it's huge effect on the world, the fact that the kid mentioned will be greatly exposed to it, that a knowledge base from mom would be helpful, and it is something they've found valuable- is, frankly intolerant, and, okay.... I'll say it... rude
    .

    I just have an opinion, just like you. I don't think either of us are rude. Am I missing something? smile

    Thanks,
    Neato





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    Val Offline
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    Originally Posted by Brittany
    This question started a lot of input of different resources, study ideas, how to discuss with a young one, etc.

    So, they wanted to share. That is all whitnessing is.
    Do you see what I'm saying? It is simply sharing a resource. Whether it be eternal life through Christ or an earthly materialist religion that Jane Doe has chosen... if you share about it you are whitnessing.

    So, for us to all be kind and tolerant to everyone here about every book that was offered up, every class, every religion, every view, every whitness, and then to single out someone that suggested the Bible -because of it's huge effect on the world, the fact that the kid mentioned will be greatly exposed to it, that a knowledge base from mom would be helpful, and it is something they've found valuable- is, frankly intolerant, and, okay.... I'll say it... rude.

    I'm sorry. I'm not really offended because this is so common in our culture. I hope I don't sound upset because I really am not... and I know you guys mean the best for each other... but it had to be said. I think calling what you all do "advice" and then saying that talking about the Bible is forcing ones will on others is quite a double standard. I know no one realized that... I'm not blaming anyone... I just think we should all be aware.

    I think you may have misunderstood what other posters were speaking about. (Others, please correct me if I'm wrong here).

    I understood that people here were asking "How can I let my child learn about different belief systems?" The discussion as I saw it was in a neutral way. No one was advocating a particular belief system. To me, at least, your messages came across as promoting one system over others.

    For example, your post quoted above contrasts "eternal life through Jesus" with an "earthly materialist religion" (whatever that means?). To me, this statement, as well as others you've made, come across as judgmental and favoring one belief system over another. Other messages that say "I'll look at that book that someone recommended" didn't come across that way. The other posts discuss religious beliefs in a neutral manner. Yours don't.

    Witnessing is defined as evangelism for the purpose of converting people to christianity. It is not a neutral approach. I'm not convinced by your assertions that you're simply "sharing" when everything I've read about witnessing indicates that its purpose is to convert new believers. This is what other posters were asking we avoid.

    Also, you've stated you were "single[d] out" because you brought up the bible. This statement is false. Many people mentioned the bible. The point we're discussing now was that someone asked, in a polite and constructive way, that we all avoid evangelizing. I think that's fair.

    And if you weren't evangelizing, there shouldn't have been anything to get upset about, right?



    Val

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    Oh no... I don't think that I was just singled out. It seemed like at a few different points anyone who mentioned Christianity and the Bible specifically were told they were being too specific or evengelistic. I don't feel like I was the only one people got defensive toward. I just wanted to defend that as a whole. It wasn't just about me. I think some of the Bible talk was also because the child involved actually goes to a religous pre-school.. probably a biblical or christian one. It seem even more relevant than usual.

    Part of my point, I guess, is that most people think that whitnessing means to try to Convert just like you said. But really it's just a matter of sharing what you've found, lovingly. The rest is up to GOd. one human cannot convert or change another. I don't think that's my place or anyone elses. So, by your definitions of trying to change people... that's not what I do. I just say what's on my mind! In my own faith I believe that's what I should do. And my comparison is that that's what we all do here and on other topics. THat should be okay.

    Also, Materialism is a valid religion and is the base of other off-shoot religions. It is the belief that there is NOTHING but the material. No spiritual, no super-natural. It's also the starting point for stuff like the Matrix (some people believe this is all a dream coming from our material selves... in our dreams we can come up with spiritual stuff tha's not real but feels real to us in our dreams etc... etc...) So, all that to say my mentioning Materialism as a comparison to the beliefs of evangelical Christians ("eternal life through Jesus") was to show from one to another and all in between I don't see why we can't all talk about any and all of it. I think becuase one sounded prettier to you than the other it made you think I was being condescending about the one you didn't recognize... that's not at all the case. Hope that clarifies.

    And, neato, when you said:

    "When one persists in witnessing to another who has expressed that it is not their desire to be accepting of it, it ceases to be a loving gesture and indeed beomes a force of one's will"

    It sounded like you were accusing someone... i don't know who neccessarily, maybe me, maybe someone.... of being forceful with their beliefs. It sounded like you were telling someone off like they had wronged someone. I don't think anyone was doing that. I thought everyone had done just fine. Also, you had mentioned people expressing it was not their desire to accept it. I never saw anyone say something like that or ask someone to stop saying something or anything like that. So, it seemed hyperdefencive of a non-issue.
    Maybe your statement was hypothetical? It just seem accusatory and I thought that was a little rude because it seemed like everyone was giving and taking advice really well and then you singled out the suggestion of the Bible as bring "forcefull" and stuff. and I just didn't see that being the case.

    And the "rude" comment was also in regards to saying there are probably some wonderful boards out there where that is respected and appreciated... I thought it seemed intollerant that one view point about how the Bible should be checked out when exploring spirituality was singled-out as something that should go somewhere else.

    I would have no problem still talking with someone that suggested other books are a must-have when learning about religions. I wouldn't ask them to take it somewhere else.

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    oh and p.s.

    I dont think any of us should be required to be neutral. we all have our oppinions for a reason. We all like to promote them.

    I promote homeschooling because I believe in it.
    I promote John McCains approach to education because I believe its right.
    I promote the Bible because I've studied it and it's flawlessly useful in every way.
    I promote Jesus, too... that that's okay.
    I promote breastfeeding.
    I promote gifted programs.

    I believe in all these things and find them relevant to gifted kids and all kids.

    We are all on here sharing what we find VALUABLE. That's the point. Sharing resources. Sharing what we find valuable. I have seen plenty on here that is against what I believe. Plenty that I don't choose to accept. But it's really okay.

    We should all have some freedom of speach here and enjoy it!

    All views, whether they be expressed neutrally or ignite passion in some and not others should be allowed.

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    Sorry St. Paulie girl... i agreed with your last post completely.

    I saw your THE END and thought it was a good ending.


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    I have to say thank you Brittany. I thought this was one of the funniest things. Maybe you didn't mean it to be funny but I thought it was hilarious.

    I read it to DH and it thought it was terribly funny also.

    Neato, you have to admit this was funny.

    Ren

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    Val Offline
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    Originally Posted by Brittany
    oh and p.s.

    I dont think any of us should be required to be neutral. we all have our oppinions for a reason. We all like to promote them.

    I promote homeschooling because I believe in it.
    I promote John McCains approach to education because I believe its right.
    I promote the Bible because I've studied it and it's flawlessly useful in every way.
    I promote Jesus, too... that that's okay.
    I promote breastfeeding.
    I promote gifted programs.

    I believe in all these things and find them relevant to gifted kids and all kids.

    We are all on here sharing what we find VALUABLE. That's the point. Sharing resources. Sharing what we find valuable. I have seen plenty on here that is against what I believe. Plenty that I don't choose to accept. But it's really okay.

    We should all have some freedom of speach here and enjoy it!

    All views, whether they be expressed neutrally or ignite passion in some and not others should be allowed.

    I guess I disagree with you here. Most of us explicitly do NOT promote things on this board. For example, the homeschoolers tend to say "it's the best option for MY CHILD(REN)" without promoting it for the children of others. In fact, I've seen many posts that explicitly say "what works for me and my kids may not work for yours."

    No one here even promotes gifted programs, from what I've read. We discuss them, cite what we see as their good points and bad points, and talk what we see as strengths and weaknesses of other education programs. Yet I don't recall seeing a lot of promotional statements about any one program.

    The point here is that we're all aiming for a balanced discussion. We avoid calling one another intolerant and keep the tone even. For me, this is one of the great strengths of this group (that and the extreme displays of intelligence and thoughtfulness that I see in so many of you here!).

    I guess I think promoting one idea over another gets in the way of all that. Again, this is what other posters were getting at, in my opinion.

    Val


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