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    #249940 - 08/09/22 11:13 AM Re: I feel like a failure [Re: giftedamateur]
    aquinas Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/02/12
    Posts: 2513
    Quote:
    I don't nearly have the numbers of hours in the day to give for everything to work out as well, so I constantly need to figure out what I'm willing to give up.


    You have 24 hour days, just like every human.
    _________________________
    What is to give light must endure burning.

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    #249941 - 08/09/22 11:14 AM Re: I feel like a failure [Re: giftedamateur]
    aquinas Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/02/12
    Posts: 2513
    You want to be "world class" and this is your work ethic.

    Quote:
    It's not so necessary for getting a good job in my experience. Again, I got a fairly good job by winging it at their interview, I graduated college (which was a top college) again while putting in less than an hour each day and skipping all of my classes because I preferred to teach myself, and because I kind of disliked the study material. I see most smart people getting into jobs without working too hard. Even at jobs, if they are smart enough, they can afford to be lazy.


    Quote:
    So instead, in real life, I lie about how much I work, and the results "speak for themselves" so people are none the wiser.


    _________________________
    What is to give light must endure burning.

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    #249942 - 08/09/22 12:02 PM Re: I feel like a failure [Re: giftedamateur]
    Klangedin Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 10/24/13
    Posts: 43
    I'm someone who's put a lot of weight on my intellectual prowess and been proud of my ability to do things with ease.

    I've been put in a rather strange position where my talents where completely overlooked. I was deemed very low functioning despite my intellectual "strengths".

    What happened to me was that I started going to a "daily activities" where people had all kinds of disabilities and I was forced to adapt to that circumstance. I knew I was smarter then everyone there by IQ standards. I knew that since I was so intelligent I would learn things well if I gave it the time.

    And guess what, today I'm not a badass intellectual with success in any topic but Im a holistic human being that puts other's well being ahead of being "Right" or "arrogant about my intelligence".

    What I've learned and is trying to convey is that intellect isn't that important to me anymore. I no longer care about being the intellectual giant that's always right because I've grown out of it. Val said it, do something that is intellectually meaningless and grow other capacities then intellectual ones.

    Healthygamer on youtube recently did a video about how gifted kids grow up with a "gifted kid identity" and that these kids over-focus on their intellectualism and that this hampers them in real life.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQC0jfH_rrM&ab_channel=HealthyGamerGG

    This guy has developed a coaching program that has a focus on eastern meditation and philosophy combined with western knowledge about psychiatry. It's about getting started in life and doing the things that are important to you instead of trying to maintain the self-image of being gifted.

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    #249946 - 08/09/22 01:33 PM Re: I feel like a failure [Re: aquinas]
    giftedamateur Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 12/19/21
    Posts: 27
    Originally Posted By: aquinas
    You want to be "world class" and this is your work ethic.

    Quote:
    It's not so necessary for getting a good job in my experience. Again, I got a fairly good job by winging it at their interview, I graduated college (which was a top college) again while putting in less than an hour each day and skipping all of my classes because I preferred to teach myself, and because I kind of disliked the study material. I see most smart people getting into jobs without working too hard. Even at jobs, if they are smart enough, they can afford to be lazy.


    Why the hell do you keep twisting my words out of context? I didn't study in college because I wasn't interested enough in the material.

    In the quote, I was countering your claim that you need to work hard to get a stable job etc. Family, yes, but a lot of that is unavoidable -- like, you need to spend 30 minutes if you want to cook, or 1 hour if you want to go to the gym every day. This is not real intellectual work, it is work which keeps you busy for X amount of time.

    You also completely forget the part where I said I'm working hard for 2-4 hours a day to try to achieve my goals. And diminishing returns set in after a while -- you would know this if you ever worked hard in your life. I know a professor, and he agreed with me that 4 or 5 hours was the most he could work productively in a day. Andrew Huberman said on his podcast that he worked 3 hours a day.

    Okay, how about this? Define "work". I'm talking about deliberate practice, without distractions, constantly aiming to get better at a skill or trying to solve hard problems, not repeating the same stuff ad nauseum.

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    #249947 - 08/09/22 01:40 PM Re: I feel like a failure [Re: giftedamateur]
    aquinas Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/02/12
    Posts: 2513
    I've seen enough. Here's your issue.

    See Table 1.
    https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2014.14060723#
    _________________________
    What is to give light must endure burning.

    Top
    #249948 - 08/09/22 01:46 PM Re: I feel like a failure [Re: Klangedin]
    giftedamateur Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 12/19/21
    Posts: 27
    Originally Posted By: Klangedin
    I'm someone who's put a lot of weight on my intellectual prowess and been proud of my ability to do things with ease.

    I've been put in a rather strange position where my talents where completely overlooked. I was deemed very low functioning despite my intellectual "strengths".

    What happened to me was that I started going to a "daily activities" where people had all kinds of disabilities and I was forced to adapt to that circumstance. I knew I was smarter then everyone there by IQ standards. I knew that since I was so intelligent I would learn things well if I gave it the time.

    And guess what, today I'm not a badass intellectual with success in any topic but Im a holistic human being that puts other's well being ahead of being "Right" or "arrogant about my intelligence".

    What I've learned and is trying to convey is that intellect isn't that important to me anymore. I no longer care about being the intellectual giant that's always right because I've grown out of it. Val said it, do something that is intellectually meaningless and grow other capacities then intellectual ones.

    Healthygamer on youtube recently did a video about how gifted kids grow up with a "gifted kid identity" and that these kids over-focus on their intellectualism and that this hampers them in real life.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQC0jfH_rrM&ab_channel=HealthyGamerGG

    This guy has developed a coaching program that has a focus on eastern meditation and philosophy combined with western knowledge about psychiatry. It's about getting started in life and doing the things that are important to you instead of trying to maintain the self-image of being gifted.


    I respect that. However, I judge myself and value myself on my creative and intellectual output. I want to do stuff that is not trivial, and admittedly, this is a preference. I could teach piano and I'm sure I could be quite successful at it, but I don't like the idea of pushing the barrel down the road. My parents said that given what I knew now, I might let my kids take piano lessons so that they might grow up to be good pianists. I am admittedly selfish and have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about not having opportunities as a child to advance and actually become competitively good at an area of my interest. I followed HealthyGamerGG for a while. He has fairly good advice, but imo it's all tailored to above average or moderately gifted children. I also don't like his lack of intellectual rigor -- and dislike the fact that he mentions concepts of theology/Orientalist philosophy such as non-dualism as if they were fact. It's self help, nothing wrong with that but a lack of rigor comes with the territory.

    Most highly gifted kids I know got into fairly good colleges and did well without really trying -- those who were able to follow their interests or get into situations which used their intellect are somewhat satisfied; those who couldn't are usually rather unhappy. Many went into research. It is a sort of intellectual hunger or curiosity which is not sated during ordinary life. You can't just tell them to find the happiness in everyday chores like doing the dishes imo, and accept their boredom and lack of any sort of companionship as a fact of life, imo. Man, have you ever felt your mind wasting away from disuse? It is a terrible feeling.

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    #249949 - 08/09/22 01:55 PM Re: I feel like a failure [Re: aquinas]
    giftedamateur Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 12/19/21
    Posts: 27
    Originally Posted By: aquinas
    I've seen enough. Here's your issue.

    See Table 1.
    https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2014.14060723#

    Diagnosing people with narcissistic personality disorder for talking about their struggles with giftedness on a forum board explicitly meant to talk about issues with giftedness, makes perfect sense doesn't it?

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    #249950 - 08/09/22 01:59 PM Re: I feel like a failure [Re: giftedamateur]
    aquinas Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/02/12
    Posts: 2513
    Struggles with giftedness are normal and welcome.

    What you are experiencing isn't a problem of giftedness, though you may tell yourself it is.
    _________________________
    What is to give light must endure burning.

    Top
    #249951 - 08/09/22 02:26 PM Re: I feel like a failure [Re: spaghetti]
    giftedamateur Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 12/19/21
    Posts: 27
    Originally Posted By: spaghetti
    If this is the way you treat people and their thoughts in real life, no wonder.
    Instead of criticizing responses from people who are taking the time to engage with you, could you consider asking questions? For example, if you feel you're being judged arrogant, ask if that's true.

    Hey, I missed your post! Again, thank you for responding -- it's not all the responses I have a problem with, just a few, and perhaps it would have been better in hindsight to simply accept that some of it was really bad advice and to not engage with it. But if you saw the comments above my post, they were tone deaf in that they kept implying that

    In real life, I am polite to people, but I don't really engage with their arguments honestly, because I know I will be shot down and misunderstood in almost all situations, which is what I hoped wouldn't happen here. For example, my friends believe in something like astrology, and if they ask my opinion I will not tell them I think it's bullshit because I've seen double blind studies which have convinced me so, because I know pretty much exactly how the argument will pan out. Is this arrogance on my part to assume they are incapable of rational discussion on the topic? I would say it's simply being pragmatic. Online, I don't feel such a need to "dumb down", admittedly.

    Originally Posted By: spaghetti

    Ask if people find you arrogant and what leads them to that thought?

    The comments were constantly telling me to "humble myself" by working at fast food joints, and to realize I wasn't special etc. despite me stating that I had worked jobs, and that I was simply disappointed that I'm relatively unsuccessful regardless of how hard I've tried. These are loaded statements -- telling someone to humble themselves and realize that they aren't special is presupposing they are being arrogant. And I am nowhere an arrogant person, in fact people who know me say I'm considerably better than I give myself credit for.

    You would expect the advice to change a little based on the fact that I've been putting in so much effort into things, simultaneously working on school, other interests and so on, but again it was misinterpreted because I put out a figure saying that I worked 2-4 hours a day. When I said I coasted through college and that it isn't necessary to put in a lot of hard work to get a decent job etc., this was misconstrued as saying that I have a terrible work ethic and need to better myself. It feels like I'm being given self-help kool aid, honestly.


    Originally Posted By: spaghetti

    The way I see it (as a parent of young DYS adults), the something you are looking for may not be found at this time in your life, and as a probably complex person, may require a lot of hard personal work on understanding yourself.

    Do you often encounter the situation, however, that by the time complex people work their stuff out, too much potential is wasted, due to decline in neuroplasticity etc.? There's stories I've heard where someone in their mid-50s found out they had a near-photographic memory in some respects and great talent for painting. Aren't they somewhat justified in feeling upset that their potential was wasted?

    Originally Posted By: spaghetti

    You've shown an interest in doing the work by coming here. That's a great start. One kind of therapy we've found successful over here is Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT). "The Happiness Trap" is an associated book.

    I will look into it. That said, have you had the experience in these kinds of therapy where therapists often tell you to change your worldview in a certain manner, and you resist it because it feels like indoctrination (i.e. my thoughts are my own!)? Then they ask you to go along with it even if you don't agree with it, and it doesn't work out.

    Originally Posted By: spaghetti

    People have been willing to engage with you and try to assist, and I urge you to not look for reasons to dismiss, but reasons to fully understand what has been said to you. Really, life can be that hard.

    I appreciate your response, and I'm not trying to dismiss the advice people have to offer. I looked back and read the first few posts people made and to which I responded, and I wasn't really dismissing advice. So no, I just want to clarify what's going on and ask questions so as to hopefully get some solutions and experiences which people have had in this kind of scenario.


    Edited by giftedamateur (08/09/22 02:31 PM)

    Top
    #249952 - 08/09/22 06:05 PM Re: I feel like a failure [Re: giftedamateur]
    Eagle Mum Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/24/20
    Posts: 173
    Loc: Australia
    Originally Posted By: giftedamateur
    I respect that. However, I judge myself and value myself on my creative and intellectual output. I want to do stuff that is not trivial, and admittedly, this is a preference. I could teach piano and I'm sure I could be quite successful at it, but I don't like the idea of pushing the barrel down the road. My parents said that given what I knew now, I might let my kids take piano lessons so that they might grow up to be good pianists. I am admittedly selfish and have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about not having opportunities as a child to advance and actually become competitively good at an area of my interest.


    It usually does require talent, effort and opportunity to become world class and many who have reached this level appear to have stepped up on the shoulders of others (parents, mentors, coaches) who have already navigated the pathways and were thus able to give the next generation a head start. I can understand why, as a plurally gifted individual with a lot of potential (still), who would have been willing to put in effort if appropriately motivated, you mourn that you haven’t received such an opportunity. That is valid, and it’s possibly a regret that some of us, and likely many others, have also experienced, but won’t, by itself, help you progress forward. I suspect that a lot of advice here comes from the wisdom of hindsight, of ways that mature individuals have navigated different pathways to other successes which we now feel are equally, if not more, fulfilling, but are not regarded, at least not by the general public, as ‘world class’. I don’t think the teen version of me would have appreciated my current values as someone who would now prefer to be at a dinner table conversing with jacks and jills of all trades who have led productive lives, rather than with monomaniacs (not that all world class achievers are necessarily such).

    For both maths and music, some of my experiences may be relevant to yours. One of my parents led a carefree childhood and excelled at many sports (including selection into a school aged national team as an amateur) but regretted their lack of opportunity to learn music and so started me at a very young age. I was obedient and diligent, so with an early formal start, appeared precociously ‘talented’. However, as Indigo alluded, the regimented discipline my music teachers tried to enforce completely drowned my personal enjoyment and interest in music, such that after investing some ten years in practice and preparation for AMEB exams, when my parents allowed me to discontinue formal lessons in favour of spending my time on school studies, I stopped playing altogether. In contrast, I loved maths but received parental encouragement only so far as to achieve high marks at school. I borrowed books with Olympiad problems and worked through them myself and, like you, made it to the level of national finalist solely on my own steam. From what I observed of the backgrounds of other finalists, I believe I might have gotten further if I had been given support and earlier opportunities, so I am no stranger to the thoughts and feelings you’ve expressed.

    I resolved to offer opportunities but not impose any expectations on my kids. They’ve all preferred to take their own routes of self-discovery and declined tutors of any kind although they’ve been happy to receive material resources such as instruments and equipment to pursue their interests, so with aptitude, effort and offered opportunities, they are choosing paths with many scenic detours rather than speeding to destinations. A recent experience highlights the benefits of this - DS, a self taught musician, performed at an eisteddfod and gained second place. The pianist in first place, who was clearly classically trained and played a well known, technically difficult, piece to perfection, bounded up to DS afterwards and asked him where he got the ‘awesome arrangement’ of the popular piece he played, hoping to download the manuscript. When he understood that the piece was DS’s own arrangement, he expressed surprise. The other youngster’s performance skills could potentially become world class if he continues to apply himself, but he was quite apparently impressed with the skills of a ‘Jack of all trades’. Whilst you have mentioned the possibility of performing and teaching, I wonder if you have considered exploring composition, as it is an area of music which others tend to enter later and one where innate musicality, creativity and other mental abilities are of greater consequence than commencement age.

    BTW, DS is aiming to study R & D engineering to try to develop and eventually put his STEM skills and creativity to good use, but also intends to use his YouTube channel as an outlet for his interest in music composition and has taken up decathlon training as it appeals to his approach of continually aiming for PBs rather than aiming to be world class in a single event. He generously helps his less academically able classmates and reliably undertakes menial household chores, even often his sisters’ shares. I will consider myself to have been a successful parent if he doesn’t ever need to struggle with feelings of regret which previous generations have had to resolve.

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