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    #249831 - 06/26/22 08:21 PM Elitism
    Vansh Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 04/23/22
    Posts: 12
    Why do some people find gifted education to be elitist? No one argues against special education programs or for proper athletic programs for talented athletes. Why is it that the same logic does not apply to education?

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    #249835 - 06/27/22 06:06 PM Re: Elitism [Re: Vansh]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4922
    It is my understanding that some people do not perceive or accept that the gifted have naturally occurring differing educational needs, and that this MAY include needs for both advanced academics and also support/remediation for disabilities (twice exceptional or 2e, which may be thought of along the lines of an intersectionality).

    Rather, some people perceive the designation of "gifted" as an honor to be grasped at. Educational systems purposefully creating too few seats in gifted programs generates competition, lotteries, and feeds into the sense of "gifted" as something desirable rather than a range of needs to be met.

    Unfortunately, some parents of gifted children may feed into this conflation of gifted -and- high achieving. Examples of useful search terms to learn more about this may include Tiger Parenting, Tiger Moms, hothousing, helicopter parents.

    Following along this line of thinking, some people may be inclined to believe that giftedness is not naturally occurring throughout the population but rather is a result of social/cultural conditioning created by the wealthy for benefit the wealthy, to the exclusion of others.

    To assist parents who may be unfamiliar with giftedness, with recognizing some of the early traits and behaviors which may be observed in young children, this roundup of links may be of interest: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/B...html#Post248478

    This old post, from a thread discussing gifted myths, may also be of interest: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/B...html#Post161756

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    #249836 - 06/27/22 10:05 PM Re: Elitism [Re: indigo]
    Vansh Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 04/23/22
    Posts: 12
    Thanks for the response! I will check out those old threads.

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    #249837 - 06/28/22 07:27 PM Re: Elitism [Re: Vansh]
    Gentian Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 10/10/16
    Posts: 12
    Anti-intellectualism across oneís culture likely feeds into it as well. Itís a huge problem in our region of the U.S.

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    #249838 - 06/29/22 07:54 AM Re: Elitism [Re: Vansh]
    spaghetti Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/05/15
    Posts: 474
    Actually special education is carefully tracked so as not to funnel people into special education and diminish their chances of success. There's a whole federal network built around it with reporting agencies, lawyers, and such.

    And gifted programs CAN be elitist. They don't have to be but they can be. No need to go into all the examples, but in some places they are not recognizing minorities, children from impoverished backgrounds, etc. Two tiers of education is not OK and as a country, we are constantly trying to balance and reimagine the role of education. Is it about being fair to all and offering all the SAME opportunity? Is it about growing talent to move the country forward? It's not a simple subject and fraught with politics and policy.

    And on the subject of athletics, the public school system generally is not growing elite athletes. Most of that comes from private opportunities that may allow you entrance to an elite public school team (high school and college), but if you want to grow a hockey player, a swimmer, pretty much any sport, you have to private pay. The government does not have a program to search for athletic talent and grow it.

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    #249841 - 07/02/22 06:27 AM Re: Elitism [Re: Vansh]
    Kai Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/17/09
    Posts: 647
    Originally Posted By: Vansh
    Why do some people find gifted education to be elitist?


    I view gifted programs that offer experiences to gifted students that would actually benefit more students than are given access to them to be elitist.

    And that would be just about all of them.

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    #249842 - 07/02/22 07:30 AM Re: Elitism [Re: Kai]
    Eagle Mum Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/24/20
    Posts: 163
    Loc: Australia
    Originally Posted By: Kai

    I view gifted programs that offer experiences to gifted students that would actually benefit more students than are given access to them to be elitist.

    And that would be just about all of them.


    Thatís why I donít advocate for gifted programs as such but for schools to support all students to strive towards their individual potentials. My kids attend Ďregularí local primary & secondary schools and over the years, weíve made many donations so that the schools could provide enrichment activities to any students who are interested in participating.

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    #249850 - 07/07/22 12:20 PM Re: Elitism [Re: spaghetti]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4922
    Originally Posted By: spaghetti
    ...in some places they are not recognizing minorities, children from impoverished backgrounds, etc.
    This type of allegation/accusation must not go unquestioned. Can you name even one place where a student is not recognized as gifted based on minority status and/or impoverished background?

    Please clarify, did you mean to say:

    Public schools which do not have gifted programs may tend to occur more often in areas with fewer students who tend to qualify for such programs, and these areas may tend to be impoverished.

    Public schools which limit their number of gifted seats to fewer than the number of pupils who qualify as gifted may tend to have disproportionally smaller number of minority students participating, when fewer minority parents sign up for the gifted seat lottery.


    Bear in mind that there are levels of gifted, differing interests among gifted children, and differing parental viewpoints (including various degrees of hothousing, pushy, competitive, laissez-faire, free-range parenting styles).

    Originally Posted By: spaghetti
    And on the subject of athletics, the public school system generally is not growing elite athletes. Most of that comes from private opportunities that may allow you entrance to an elite public school team (high school and college), but if you want to grow a hockey player, a swimmer, pretty much any sport, you have to private pay. The government does not have a program to search for athletic talent and grow it.
    Rather than focus on the hyperbole of elite athletes and lack of governmental talent search for them, it seems that the OP is speaking of everyday situations. For example, most public schools offer sports teams at both VARSITY and Junior-varsity (JV) level, to appropriately support and grow the level of talent inherent in their student body. The sorting by athletic ability tends to be done without regard to quotas or private pay opportunities, and recognizes natural differences among students which may provide an advantage in a particular sport.

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    #249851 - 07/07/22 12:22 PM Re: Elitism [Re: Vansh]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4922
    A word about enrichment... wonderful for student-led interests outside of the classroom, but no substitute for advanced academics.

    It took me a while to find, but here is a report from 1997, titled What it Means to Teach Gifted Learners Well, by Carol Ann Tomlinson, Ed.D., University of Virginia. This report is on the website of the National Association for Gifted Children (NAGC).

    Unfortunately, it appears that much of what was known a quarter of a century ago has been forgotten or pushed aside with the introduction of common core and the focus on creating equal outcomes for all students.

    Originally Posted By: article
    6. Instruction for gifted learners is inappropriate when it is rooted in novel, "enriching" or piecemeal learning experiences. If a child were a very talented pianist, we would question the quality of her music teacher if the child regularly made toy pianos, read stories about peculiar happenings in the music world, and did word-search puzzles on the names of musicians. Rather, we would expect the student to work directly with the theory and performance of music in a variety of forms and at consistently escalating levels of complexity. We would expect the young pianist to be learning how a musician thinks and works, and to be developing a clear sense of her own movement toward expert-level performance in piano. Completing word-search puzzles, building musical instruments and reading about oddities in the lives of composers may be novel, may be "enriching,"(and certainly seems lacking in coherent scope and sequence, and therefore sounds piecemeal). But those things will not foster high-level talent development in music. The same hold true for math, history, science, and so on.

    Link - https://www.nagc.org/resources-publicati...d-learners-well

    Archived on WayBack Machine, internet archive -
    https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://www.nagc.org/resources-publications/gifted-education-practices/what-it-means-teach-gifted-learners-well

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    #249852 - 07/07/22 12:39 PM Re: Elitism [Re: Kai]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4922
    Originally Posted By: Kai
    I view gifted programs that offer experiences to gifted students that would actually benefit more students than are given access to them to be elitist.
    At one point, advanced academics were provided based on student need for advanced material in order to learn something new.

    Then came a movement to provide advanced academics to those who need or may benefit from the the advanced material. The students who "may benefit from" the advanced academics often needed additional supports. An example was allowing students to enroll in AP courses, without having taken prerequisites. While focusing on this group, the needs of the highest group of students (gifted students) tended to be ignored.

    I am a proponent of expanding the number of seats in any gifted program or advanced academics to meet the number of pupils who qualify.

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