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    #249789 - 06/02/22 10:33 AM Correlation btw WASI & WISC? Referral form weight?
    Mali Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/11/22
    Posts: 4
    We've known our eldest was bright and when she was assessed at 6.5y between K & 1st, she tested as gifted, but due to her unmedicated ADHD the score was considered to be on the low end of her ability. Fast forward to now (9y, ending 3rd, & medicated) and through the school's testing on the WASI-II she had a FSIQ of 156.

    I know DYS doesn't accept the WASI and we're in the process of getting a full neuropsych done so we'll have scores from an accepted test. But is there any known correlation between how kids score on the WASI and how it would relate to possible WISC scores?

    Lastly, if she does end up getting qualifying scores, how much does the referral form matter to the process? She's definitely more of a 'still waters run deep' kind of child and even her teachers from last year were surprised to hear some of the audiobooks she was choosing to listen to at home. I don't get the sense that her teachers this year really get her (no gifted ed mandated by our state, no gifted programs in our regional area regardless of district, so no idea if they have any understanding/training on giftedness let alone 2e). If it weren't for her IEP and the resulting evaluations, I doubt there would be any thoughts/comments on her abilities as even with the school evaluations there's no discussion about them aside from a brief comment from the psychologist. After the year we've had, we're shifting to homeschooling her for next year so it's not like she'll have a different non-family teacher who may have a better understanding/appreciation of her.

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    #249866 - 07/10/22 06:20 PM Re: Correlation btw WASI & WISC? Referral form weight? [Re: Mali]
    Mali Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/11/22
    Posts: 4
    It’s been a while since I initially submitted; we’re now about a month out from the start of her testing. Does anyone have any insight?

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    #249867 - 07/10/22 08:42 PM Re: Correlation btw WASI & WISC? Referral form weight? [Re: Mali]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3987
    The WASI has a very close relationship to the WISC (in fact, if a WISC is completed very soon after the WASI-II, they will use the subtests from the WASI in the WISC composites, instead of retesting those subtests), but not exactly the same structure. It also depends a bit on whether she had the 2- or 4-subtest version. (Did you get any other composites, or just the FSIQ?) There are also, critically, no WMI or PSI index scores, which are typically the ones most affected by ADHD. In short, the WASI-II FSIQ is reasonably predictive of the GAI, but not necessarily of the WISC-V FSIQ in learners whose WMI/PSI (aka, CPI) are notably different from the GAI, which describes quite a lot of persons with ADHD or certain LDs.
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    #249872 - 07/11/22 11:06 PM Re: Correlation btw WASI & WISC? Referral form weight? [Re: Mali]
    Mali Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/11/22
    Posts: 4
    I'm not sure about the subtests used; this re-eval cycle through the school was a hot mess so I missed that only the composites were included in the report.
    VCI: 146
    PRI: 160
    FSIQ: 156

    It's mostly shocking because it was a significant point jump compared to the earlier school assessment (2019 WASI-II: VCI 128; PRI 158; FSIQ 138) and that's even with the same person doing the assessments. [2019 WISC-V was privately done a few months before the school did the WASI (VCI 118, WMI 91, PSI 98, FRI 126, VSI 138, FSIQ 118, GAI 126, VECI 113, CPI 92) and the school report doesn't indicate if they used her WISC subtest scores.] I was expecting a bit of a point jump with the meds, but not to this extent.

    Her WJIV Ach scores don't seem comparable to her WASI-II results, but my daughter also told me that she spent an entire day testing so I wouldn't be surprised if she got tired/bored/disinterested if the WJ was done after the WASI.

    1. Letter-Word Identification 125
    2. Applied Problems 138
    3. Spelling 117
    4. Passage Comprehension 120
    5. Calculation 107
    6. Writing Samples 108
    8. Oral Reading 128
    9. Sentence Reading Fluency 121
    10. Math Facts Fluency 106
    11. Sentence Writing Fluency 105

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    #249885 - 07/19/22 04:39 PM Re: Correlation btw WASI & WISC? Referral form weight? [Re: Mali]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3987
    So actually, the WASI-II results are nearly identical to the previous administration on the PRI. It's the VCI that has gone up a bit. The main set of scores that is different is your previous neuropsych (WISC-V). Based on what you've provided, I agree about the possible impact of time limits and attentional dysregulation on her 2019 WISC. We also have to qualify the 2019 WASI scores by noting that there may have been a tiny bit of score inflation on that PRI due to practice effects (the items are not identical, but the novelty of the tasks themselves would have been lost). Another factor is what she said about herself this time around, which is that a WISC is substantially longer than a WASI. That WISC likely took at least an hour and a half, possibly longer (especially if she attempted a lot of block designs), vs 30-40 minutes for the WASI.

    IOW, for the upcoming neuropsych, they need to be aware that she fatigues quickly, and may need more frequent breaks.

    To be fair, she probably didn't literally take an entire day on recent testing (unless she needed a lot of breaks, which is possible), based only on the WASI and the core WJ subtests. With her fluency scores (which are age-appropriate or above), the WJ shouldn't have taken more than about two hours or so (all told, no more than about three hours of testing between the two tests). But yes, it is still tiring to do one's entire cognitive and achievement testing in the same day.

    As to the results, taking into account regression to the mean, her achievement scores generally are not unreasonable given her current and past cognitive measures. Reasoning (strong) has historically been much stronger than efficiency (age-appropriate), and nonverbal reasoning stronger than verbal reasoning, and that's how the academic measures come out.

    The average scores are all ones that are affected by automaticity skills (MF & SWF, and their multi-step analogs Calc & WS). The VCI would predict language-based skills in the 120s, and that's where they fall in reading. The PRI would predict math skills in the 130s, and that is likewise where they are in reasoning.

    The only skills that are consistently below personal expectations are her written expression skills, which are probably affected by the automaticity and organization vulnerabilities that are often associated with her existing diagnosis (although I would still want to keep a close eye on the possibility of an additional learning challenge in writing). If your neuropsych wants to take a closer look at writing (e.g., a TOWL-4, PAL-2 or similar), it might not be a bad idea.


    Edited by aeh (07/28/22 09:09 AM)
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    #249900 - 07/27/22 10:55 AM Re: Correlation btw WASI & WISC? Referral form weight? [Re: Mali]
    Mali Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/11/22
    Posts: 4
    Yeah, the school psychologist said she finished all the block designs on WASI-II. She ran out of time on the last one, but apparently still got the correct answer. The calculation narrative was surprising though; the psychologist's report said she skipped every division problem - even problems like 4/2 which she knows - which was very odd; but when we were reviewing it at the meeting, he showed us the page with the division problems highlighted and every one of them used the 'long division bracket' symbol instead of the ÷ symbol. I don't think she had any idea what the bracket meant; all of the schoolwork that had been sent home only used the ÷ symbol.

    Thankfully the clinician doing the neuropsych is the same one who did her private neuroedu in summer 2019. She just had her first appointment on Monday and I think they made it through about half the WISC. The clinician said she was going to be adding a couple extra appointments for her to make sure there was enough time booked since she needs more time; I'm not sure if that's from her lower processing speed, needing more breaks, hitting ceilings, or all of the above.

    We're definitely taking a closer look at reading & writing. She received a provisional SLD in reading (mild, reading rate, reading comprehension) and a rule out SLD in writing (written expression) last time and I want to figure out if they are still separate issues now that the ADHD meds should be mitigating the attention issues. During distanced learning for 2nd grade was where I really saw the struggles in writing come to the fore; her school/teacher weren't concerned since she was working at grade level, but I'd much rather know now so we can work on scaffolding and direct instruction however she needs instead of waiting for her to fall flat in middle school/high school/college when she can't skate through anymore.

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    #249902 - 07/28/22 09:08 AM Re: Correlation btw WASI & WISC? Referral form weight? [Re: Mali]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3987
    That's quite impressive. The WASI-II is normed through adulthood, so completing all of the block designs means she was able to solve items presented to the highest-functioning adults, albeit somewhat more slowly. (In that sense, the WASI actually has a higher ceiling than the WISC.) The observation regarding the calculation subtest does explain that discrepancy. That's more of an instructional gap than anything else. You can fix that easily this next year in homeschooling.

    Sounds like your neuropsych has a pretty good handle on her. I'm assuming they know that DYS is a thought? To make sure that natural ceilings are obtained, in case extended norms are relevant (most likely for the FRI/VSI).

    On SLDs, it appears that the possible reading delay previously noted isn't supported by current documentation (yay!), but writing still warrants a look. I'm guessing that's a factor in the jump on the VCI. Previously, she wasn't accessing text at her cognitive level, which would have limited her vocabulary and general information to environmental exposures. Now that she's reading closer to her cognition, she's picking up verbal knowledge skills more commensurate with her reasoning. I wouldn't be surprised if her next triennial eval finds the gap between verbal and nonverbal thinking closing even more. (BTW, good to see she is listening to audiobooks, which are extremely valuable for learners like her, since they give/have given her access to language beyond her fluent decoding skills.)

    Your neuropsych will give you more specific recommendations, but as a general thought, learners with her profile typically do quite well with writing strategies that are visual and conceptual, such as graphic organizers/mindmaps (paper or electronic--there are lots of interactive ones), mastery approaches, and judicious use of assistive technology, such as speech-to-text or scribing during the idea generation and drafting processes.

    My own reluctant writer also benefited from the tight focus and small bites structure of materials like Evan-Moor Daily Six Trait Writing, which we settled on as the writing core for homeschooling DC beginning from about your DC's age. (15 minutes a day of writing was about as much structured writing instruction as DC could tolerate at that point.) And FWIW, DC finished high school with college English credits obtained from AP tests and dual enrollment courses. (BTW, make sure to document any extended time or typed-response accommodations, to establish a history, which may help if she needs to apply for those for future standardized tests, such as the AP exams.) So I whole-heartedly agree with remediating early.
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