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    #249470 - 01/17/22 10:40 AM WISC-V Ceilings and Extended Norms
    slmw Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 05/31/20
    Posts: 29
    DD9 just did the WISC-V two years after her last one. This time she finished all the block puzzle questions correctly according to the psychologist. However, I remember that there are 'extended norms' available - are all psychologists able to administer extended norm subtest questions? If not, does that mean that my daughter's block diagram subtest score is an underestimate? Thanks!

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    #249471 - 01/17/22 11:29 PM Re: WISC-V Ceilings and Extended Norms [Re: slmw]
    MumOfThree Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/11
    Posts: 1694
    Loc: Australia
    Block design is timed, so it is possible to complete all items correctly but not reach the maximum score.

    However, if your child has two or more subtests in the 18-19 range you could ask about the extended norms. No further tests are required, the psychologist will simply use the raw scores to look up the extended norm scores. Note that with extended norms it is possible for a score to actually go down, not up, as they are a completely different set of norms. My DD had extended norms applied to 4 verbal subtests (her psychologist had administered all 4, to see what she scored on the other two, after she hit the ceiling on the first two), three went up, one went down. The VIQ then went up overall as well.

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    #249472 - 01/18/22 02:39 PM Re: WISC-V Ceilings and Extended Norms [Re: slmw]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3959
    The extended norms are not quite a completely different set of norms, since they require obtaining an 18 or 19 on the standard norms to be applicable, but yes, it is possible for scores on the low end of 19 to turn out a little lower on the ExNorms.

    Given her age, if she received at least a few bonus points for speed, then she may well have obtained an 18 or 19. (But a nine year-old cannot obtain a 19 without bonus points.) The extended norms would be more relevant if she also scored well on the other subtest in this index (visual puzzles). We don't have enough information currently to determine whether the scores are an underestimate. You could call and ask about extended norms if you like, or just wait until the results come back, to see if they are warranted.
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    #249473 - 01/18/22 04:22 PM Re: WISC-V Ceilings and Extended Norms [Re: slmw]
    slmw Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 05/31/20
    Posts: 29
    Thanks aeh - wow, is it better to use traditional or extended norms then? I'm so confused:)

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    #249474 - 01/18/22 07:16 PM Re: WISC-V Ceilings and Extended Norms [Re: slmw]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3959
    Unless a student receives at least two 18s or 19s, it's better to use standard norms, because they had a much larger standardization sample, and consequently more robust psychometrics. Extended norms are only recommended when a student's scores are high enough (in the ceiling of the standard norms) that it might be of value to try to see where they stand among other students scoring in the ceiling. The rule of thumb for when that might be considered to be the case is when there are at least two 18s or 19s. (And actually, 18s are under consideration mainly for the sake of older students (adolescents) on the WISC, who can't miss as many points before they drop out of the max scaled score; the ceiling of the test is lower for them. For younger students, it really should be 19s.)
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    #249475 - 01/18/22 10:11 PM Re: WISC-V Ceilings and Extended Norms [Re: slmw]
    slmw Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 05/31/20
    Posts: 29
    Got it, thanks aeh! DD9 definitely has at least two 19s:)

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    #249480 - 01/20/22 08:16 AM Re: WISC-V Ceilings and Extended Norms [Re: slmw]
    slmw Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 05/31/20
    Posts: 29
    Update: with extended norms, DD9 got subtest values of 22, 24 (block design, visual puzzles) and 20 (figure weights). This raised FSIQ by 4 points from when just using traditional norms, just wanted to share!

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    #249481 - 01/20/22 02:22 PM Re: WISC-V Ceilings and Extended Norms [Re: slmw]
    slmw Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 05/31/20
    Posts: 29
    @aeh - would love your expertise on this... so between DD9's WISC-V from two years ago and now, her WMI, PSI and VCI all remained exactly the same, but her FRI and VSI shot up like crazy (needing extended norms per above) and resulting in a 10-pt FSIQ increase. Is this typical or does it indicate that she didn't show her full potential 2 years ago? Thanks!

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    #249484 - 01/22/22 07:09 PM Re: WISC-V Ceilings and Extended Norms [Re: slmw]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3959
    So if I recall, it was just under two years ago when she was last assessed, so she would have been only about seven or eight years old. A lot of things can happen in two years at this young age, developmentally, and in terms of experience. I wouldn't perhaps go so far as to say the increase was typical, but it's also not atypical. It's within the range of changes that one does see. Interpretively, it could be that she didn't show her full potential last time, or it may be that you caught her just before one of those developmental leaps that young children in particular do have. Since they don't all have those leaps at exactly the same age, sometimes testing can inadvertently place them just on the wrong side of the leap in terms of where they fall in the age-norms (compared to the average child). It's one of the reasons testing is considered to be more stable after the primary school years.

    In fairness, I do also have to caution that although they are not as sizeable as at earlier time points, there are still some score inflation effects seen with retest intervals under 24 months, so although I wouldn't throw out any results obtained in the 18-24 month range, I would have to take possible score inflation into consideration.
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    #249496 - 01/31/22 02:04 PM Re: WISC-V Ceilings and Extended Norms [Re: aeh]
    Leewh Offline
    New Member

    Registered: 01/31/22
    Posts: 1
    Originally Posted By: aeh
    The extended norms are not quite a completely different set of norms, since they require obtaining an 18 or 19 on the standard norms to be applicable, but yes, it is possible for scores on the low end of 19 to turn out a little lower on the ExNorms.


    Aeh, my daughter is also 9yo and scored 18 on a few subtests but did not reach 19 on any. Would it be recommended to review for extended norms or is it not applicable since she did not reach ceilings?

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