Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Testing at age 11

Hi, DS 11 (ADHD, asd, ts, anxiety) has started middle school this year and the transition has been rough. He is chronically stressed, anxious, and has had episodes of aggression. The school has not been following the IEP (refusing scribing, not modifying work load, not offering any sensory tools, refusing breaks, constant subs rotating in as his pca, etc.) He has been sent home early many times (missing algebra, his last class of the day) and has been suspended for 7 total days. He is being put in seclusion and restrained frequently. The restraints are not being reported, neither is the seclusion (not sure if it has to be as they don't close the door, they block him in with staff... these are the people he is aggressing against.)

I was told (not by the school!) that the best thing to do right now is get new data. We requested a new fba and evaluation. His last evaluation was in 1st grade and last fba in third. His current fba attributes (imo erroneously) most of his disruptive behavior to attention seeking. Because of this DS is being ignored when he needs (and is asking for) help.

One big area where he feels he needs assistance is answering math word problems and open ended questions in the ela curriculum, as well as taking notes and copying from the board. He says a lot of his stress comes from being confused and overwhelmed by this sort of class work, telling his aide he is confused/can't keep up, then getting ignored and the demand repeated, "do your work."

My main question is in regards to the Wisc. Will there be any ceiling effects for a child age nearly 12 (or 12 if they drag this out close to the 60 day max)? DS got 19's on 5 of the 10 subtests, one 18, and one 17 iirc. His other scores were 8, 11, and I think 13. I'm concerned that if the top scores are depressed by lack of higher level items available on the test, but the low scores remain low (or get lower) they may try to take away his gifted designation. Should I be concerned? Is there a better test I could request?

We have our 4th IEP meeting of the year tomorrow where they expect me to agree to a harsh plan neither my husband nor myself are comfortable with. DS is a sweet, helpful, kind child. He weights 60 lbs and has the social/emotional maturity of a five year old. We are very concerned about the effect of all of this on his mental health and for the first time ever he does not want to go to school.

We are of course considering homeschool and are looking at other programs. We are planning on suing the school for alternate placement once he reaches 10 suspensions. That is the only reason he's still going there at this point.

First of all, I am so sorry that you and your DS are having to go through this. Starting middle school is tough under the best of circumstances, let alone with his profile--and then this situation on top of it all.

A few things stand out to me:
1. How has he not been reevaluated since 1st grade? Reevaluations are mandated every three years for students on IEPs. If this is the case, they are way out of compliance, which puts you in a much stronger position to get compensatory services and/or reimbursement for alternate placements. Don't forget to request OT (fine motor/handwriting/sensory) and assistive tech as part of the comprehensive eval.
2.If they are having to use disciplinary measures on a routine basis, and have already called you in for four IEP meetings, they should have been the ones requesting consent for an FBA. More leverage for you in a potential hearing. Don't sign anything you don't feel comfortable with. And document any incident he describes to you that sounds like it might be restraint or seclusion.

Okay. Now for your actual question. I would say that the WISC is probably still your best option as a cognitive assessment instrument. I understand that you are concerned about ceiling effects, but remember that the norms go up to age 16-11, so although he won't be able to generate the same range of extended index scores, there should still be plenty of ceiling to generate 18s and 19s. Even 16 year-olds can earn 18s and 19s on nearly every subtest.

Thank you for your thoughts. It's been tough. Having a hard time getting into the holiday spirit this year!

1. We were offered a reevaluation when he was due, but since they said it had to include another IQ test I turned it down (he took 3 sessions to complete the first one.) He was doing great at school at that point, so it seemed unnecessary to put him through it all again.

I actually brought up doing a new evaluation quite a few weeks ago and was told by the vice principal that we had waived it and shouldn't have done so if we actually wanted it. I took this as a no. I was later informed by someone (again, not the school) that I can request the reevaluation even if I waived it when it was originally offered. I insisted firmly this time and they agreed.

2. They keep referencing their fba, so I brought up at the last meeting that if the function of the behavior is what they say it is AND if they are following the plan outlined in the IEP (that worked fine last year) then we would not be seeing behaviors we haven't seen since the assessment and plan were put in place in 3rd grade. I think the function of the behaviors is to escape demands. They aren't helping by sending him home when he does them.

And I know why he is hitting. He told me. He says when they take him to seclusion he feels like he is in jail and he feels so trapped he just needs to escape. They are standing between him and freedom, so he fights his way through.

He gets sent to seclusion or the office for things like saying he is too stressed to go to his next class and refusing to do so. I have requested he have access to tools to help him calm down such as a beanbag chair and weighted blanket, but they insist he needs to be in an empty room.

When I picked him up on Monday he was in a room in the office, on a chair in the very center of an otherwise empty room. Four adults were in one corner each and DS was just sitting there sobbing. I immediately hugged him and said let's go home. He couldn't stand, he was too upset. I had to wait 15 minutes for him to calm down enough to walk.

Finally, thanks for the answer to my question I doubt they would use the extended norms anyway, so hopefully the results will be useful, but also not far enough off from the prior results that the school can use them to take away one of the classes DS looks forward to each week.

Follow up question, what tests could we specifically request to show DS has deficits that make inference questions difficult? That show that while he will have no trouble remembering the main character was wearing a purple shirt in the scene, he will have no idea why she got angry and yelled at her friend? That he can't identify relevant information and can't interpret the motivations of the author?

Along those lines, I requested that any questions that involve high level inference be given to DS in multiple choice format (he can use his logic and intellect to figure out which answer makes sense, but not figure it out on his own) and that he be given only explicitly stated stuff for his open ended questions. My request was denied.

I requested the teacher give him filled in sheets instead of making him copy info from quickly presented slides. I was entirely ignored.

DS has scribing available pretty much any time he requests it according to his IEP, but no matter how much I fuss about it and he requests it, it hasn't been happening. I had them add that it needs to be available for typed assignments because they kept saying he could type instead of hand write, which is not going to work for DS. They then said he would have to use text to speech.

DS cannot type well yet, he has an articulation disorder (diagnosed by the school), and he has verbal tics, making speech to text a nightmare for him. He also has something of a stutter. But none of that matters because the reason he has scribing is to reduce the load on his executive skills. He needs to use all of his focus just to concentrate on and answer the question. When he has to split his focus and do something other than pop out a verbal response he gets confused mid sentence and forgets what he is saying, he even forgets the question, because he is so focused on spelling, grammer, etc.

So, yeah, I'm looking for the tests that will be most useful in explaining to the school how a kid can get 98/99%ile on the multiple choice reading and writing maps tests, but still have an issue with answering an open ended questions like why did the character say she didn't like puppies even though she really did? And anything that could show he can't handle writing and thinking at the same time. And anything that shows he's too slow/inefficient to copy from the board. Because just having a list of disabilities that anyone could guess would cause these problems is not enough.

Woo.

On inference: there are a couple of instruments that might give a better look at inferential comprehension. If appropriate error analysis is done, even the WIAT-4 and KTEA-3 (standard academic achievement tests) can tell you a bit about inferential comprehension vs literal comprehension, or comprehension of literary vs informational text. Assessments that are typically given by speech and language pathologists also can tease a bit of this out. The CASL-2 supralinguistic index includes subtests of inferential thinking (and other metalinguistics). Comparing the core receptive/expressive language portions of the test to the supralinguistic portion can highlight strengths/weaknesses. There's also the SLDT (Social Language Development Test-- it comes in an elementary version, which ends with age 11, and an adolescent version, which starts at age 12; if they go this route, make sure the correct version is administered).

And on the multiple choice vs open-response: I would look into more extensive memory and learning testing, such as with the CMS or (preferably) WRAML-3. That can identify differences in aspects of memory, such as between free and cued recall, and short-term and mid/long-term memory.

Writing inefficiencies: something like the PAL-2 can give you a sense of where writing breaks down: physical, speed, formulation. Some aspects are also on the new WIAT-4, if all or nearly all of the writing tasks, including supplementals, are given. The TOWL-4 continues to be the gold standard for writing assessments, perhaps with the addition of one of the timed sentence writing fluency measures from the WIAT-4 or WJIV. There are hand copying tests (should be part of the OT or AT evals) for word/sentence copying speed and legibility. (E.g., the Wold.) I also like qualitative assessments comparing how he does with a writing prompt under three conditions: handwritten, typed, and scribed.

Thank you so much. This is amazingly useful to me. Even if they refuse my requests I will at least have a record of having asked for them which could prove helpful in the future.

One thing I do know about comprehension is that each year his %ile goes down. The last proper reading assessment he had was the class testing the teacher did at the beginning of 4th grade where I learned his reading level was rated as 4th grade for fiction and 7th grade for informational text. Fiction reading was at 4th grade in 2nd grade as well (his overall reading was 5th, so I assume informational text was 6th). He can read and understand all variety of complex material now, but I wouldn't be surprised if his understanding of fiction is now behind, probably still stuck at 4th grade.

This happened with my son. I was totally confused because I knew that his comprehension was excellent and that his reading level was improving (a lot) year to year. I finally discovered that he wasn't actually reading the passages on the reading comprehension tests. We were homeschooling and I gave him a standardized test every year at home. The next year I made him read the passages, questions, and answers aloud. His percentile rank jumped back into the upper 90s (the tests were three grades above his age-grade). He was the same age as your son is now when this happened.

Anyway, it sounds like there is probably more going on with your son than that, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

Your poor DS. The scenario of him in the centre of a room with four adults is appalling. It sounds like they are trying to make it as unpleasant as possible for him, in the hope that it would serve as deterring punishment or if it doesn’t work on him, they may be hoping it has an effect on you. I suspect if a group of teenagers were seen doing this, it would be regarded as bullying, but staff are doing this... I really do hope some solution or alternative can be found sooner rather than later.

Wrt to comprehension of fiction vs information text, my eldest was scoring distinctions in science competitions, but was placed in a remedial reading group because she didn’t seem proficient at reading the fiction material in class (she was 1-2 years younger than the rest of her class). When I probed, my daughter reported never using her imagination so they were just words on paper. I’m not a fan of Stephanie Meyer’s works, but reading the Twilight series at age 11 was the first time my daughter actually followed a plot and thereafter, she voluntarily read fiction regularly, so I owe a debt to the author. Both the Twilight and Harry Potter series might be helpful in that one could read the novels, watch the movies and compare the two to appreciate some of the nuances of the written word.

Schools are really struggling right now, and it is kids like yours that are most impacted. In our school district, there are not enough subs so teachers have to fill in during their planning period, or they have to run two classes going between two classrooms. It's horrible. When they need to take off, they don't feel OK doing that.

There's a ton of turn over for the support staff and they are shifted around all day to cover where the need is greatest. Which means kids like yours never get to have that adult that "gets" them. Someone who can read your son and meet the sensory needs before things get out of control.

Kids are not being served well. The parents are upset when they see their kids having new behavior issues and the teachers are defensive, knowing they are not able to give their best. The special ed teachers can't get IEP meetings scheduled because the regular ed teachers who are required to be there are not available. In our district, the administrators and the district headquarters staff are pitching in -- 2 days per week-- to try to help. But still staff is quitting. Kids that were fine before virtual ed, came back aggressive, sending staff out on leave for injuries. The school knows it can't meet needs and looks for a better placement. But the placements don't have enough staff and the kids are put on a waiting list.

I don't have the answers, but wanted to share that at least in our district, the schools are not functioning well. One thing I'd suggest is NOT giving permission for restraint or seclusion if you do not restrain or seclude at home. He's said how it escalates things for him. He feels awful about it. Why put him through that whole process? School DOES have other tools. They are the sensory tools, or a flash pass to go to a different room, or -- well, there are plenty of options if you guys can brainstorm together. If they are saying the function of the behavior is attention, and you feel it's to escape demands, he needs another FBA-- but will they be able to do it in timeline? I know they wouldn't here.

And another question. What are the questions to be answered by the re-evaluation? At least in my district, you can help with that. Do you already have data to show he qualifies for special education? What is his disability category? Is it still valid based on the data you have? Is more data needed for teaching strategies (YES!) Do you have to ask the question about whether he qualifies for gifted? Maybe you can get everyone at the table to agree to not ask that question -- unless you think testing will make a difference. And only ask the question about teaching methods and test for that.

Hiya all, thanks so much for your help on these issues. I am pleased to report things have vastly improved. The school finally listened to me and allowed DS to do partial days, which we started beginning of January. This made a huge difference, no more aggression, no more headaches, no more complaints of being exhausted, stressed, or mistreated. DS was only doing math class and specials at that point (his favorite classes), all on the same floor, and no need to access his locker. There were still behaviors (silliness, non-compliance, transition difficulties), but no phone calls, no suspensions, no disputed disciplinary procedures employed.

Around mid-February the school managed to not only get DS a permanent support staff with RBT certification (which he had always had in the past), they even got back the guy he had in 4th grade who worked wonderfully with him. Since then the reports of all behaviors are pretty much nil. Last week there was 1 episode of non-compliance all week. The data improved so much with his staff upgrade we have rapidly added periods back in. Today is his first day doing reading class since the changes were made and as soon as next week he might be back to full days. Reading has always been a problem period, so hopefully his aide can work his magic there as well. (and as it took me so long to write this I can now report that it was another perfect day, no behaviors)

The school continues to dispute the possibility that the behaviors were a staff issue and insist it was all about a difficult transition to middle school that would have occurred regardless of assigned staff. They cite his behavior problems when he started 2nd grade at the elementary school as a pattern of difficulties with such transitions. I find it hilarious that they can look me in the eye and spout this nonsense. I mean, DS had behavior problems in 2nd grade because he was 7 years old and had had behavior problems his whole life. By 5th grade they were gone, and not simply because he was used to elementary school! He matured over those years and learned new skills. There is also the fact that behavior at the beginning of 6th grade wasn't particularly bad. They had a teacher he worked great with in the past (master's level and ABA trained) filling in for him until they could find a PCA. He did great those first few weeks. Things went downhill when they switched to floating PCA's, and got even worse when they started cycling people, not only by day, but often class by class. None of the people were trained in dealing with kids with ASD or behavior problems. They behaved in childish, petty ways, they berated DS for disability related behaviors, they even engaged in physical tugging matches with him over tangibles. But yeah, it was obviously a 4 month long transition problem

Moving on (sorry about the rant, but my poor kid suffered serious mental health issues due to all of this)... all of the testing came back and I just wanted to update/maybe get some opinions.

I'll start with the WISC results. The scores changed a lot on the individual subtests. He did much worse on most of the test, but better on some of his low areas from last time, so his FSIQ is only 3 points lower. He still easily qualifies for the gifted program thankfully, but I do wonder how some areas could drop so far. These are the then (age 7) and now (age 11/12, had b-day during testing) numbers:

WISC V

FSIQ__________144____141
GAI___________143____Not calculated
VCI___________118____118
Similarities___11_____14
Vocabulary_____16_____13
Information____NA_____12
Comprehension__NA_____13
VSI___________151____141
Block Design___18_____17
Visual Puzzles_19_____17
FRI___________155____144
Matrix Reason__19_____19
Figure Weights_19_____16
WMI___________155____142
DigitSpan______19_____19
Picture Span___19_____16
PSI___________100____116
Coding_________12_____13
Symbol Search___8_____13
STI____________NA ___114
Immediate____________110
Delayed______________115
Recognition__________114

WIAT III (last time) IV (this time)

Reading

Reading________NA____131
Decoding_______NA____134
Comprehension_141____119
Oral Fluency__127_____82
Word Reading__127____132
Pseudoword____134____130

Total_________136_____NA
Basic_________137_____NA

Math__________160____140

Problem Solving______NA___137
Numerical Operations_NA___142

This section was not given last time:

Written Expression____Not Calculated
Spelling______________110
Sentence Composition__106
Sentence Combining____113
Sentence Building______99
Essay Composition_____Did not complete

This was further info provided by the tester:

"During the Vocabulary subtest, DS often required additional querying suggesting he had some difficulty providing concise responses during this section."

Block design: "On the tenth item in this subtest, DS was able to complete the task in roughly twenty seconds." Should this mean something to me? Kinda lolled here as I have no idea what the tenth item was or how that might compare to average!

Under Visual Puzzles this was noted: "DS was heard answering additional questions correctly but outside of the allotted time."

Under Figure Weights this was noted: He was heard answering additional questions correctly but outside of the allotted time. DS appeared to benefit from the additional allotted time on the Matrix Reasoning subtest which could explain the higher performance on that subtest.

Under the STI section: "The tasks are timed and DS was heard banging his elbow against the table if the examiner moved to he next question following the allotted time but before DS could provide a response."

"The Math Problem Solving subtest did decline (2022, SS-137; 2017, SS-160). There could be a multitude of contributing factors for this drop, but one area observed to impact DS’s overall score was his refusal to complete word problems on the WIAT-IV."

"The percentage correct for the different reading
categories are as follows; Literal comprehension 100%, Inferential comprehension 91%, Narrative comprehension 88%, Expository comprehension 100%."

"Performance on the Essay Composition subtest was unable to be calculated due to his resistance to write an extended response." DS was able to list all sorts of things over a 3 day period that related to his answer to the prompt, but when it was time to write apparently said he couldn't remember what to write. The examiner went on the write this: "He referred to an analogy of a leaky pipe and described it as having a bad connection between his thoughts and the paper and pencil. When he was asked about Math, he responded, “it’s like a vacuum cleaner” and that “numbers stay in his head for a minute”. He stated that when the pipe bursts, he forgets his thoughts." He was then given an alternative prompt related to his special interest, but again gave a simple one sentence response. "He then wrote out a full song that he learned in Chorus that day reporting that the song did not include full sentences, so he was able to write it. He again referred to the leaky pipe stating that words were leaking out and reported that he knew what words mean but not in the context of the sentence. The test was then ended as DS had missed 3 days of writing class at that point.

On a different day he was given the TOWL-4 because I had specifically requested a writing score and they were not able to obtain one on the WIAT. On that day, for whatever reason, he sat and wrote with no issues! When I asked him about it at home he said sometimes his brain just works!

His scores were:

Spontaneous writing_____112
Contextual conventions___12
Story Composition________11
Logical Sentences________11

This additionally was in the report, from his algebra teacher:

“DS had a 92% First Trimester and currently has a 78% in class. DS has outstanding mathematical computational skills and understanding. He is able to look at math problems and analyze them quickly. What he does not seem to like to do is anything regarding word problems. Whenever we have them in class or on a test/quiz he immediately says he doesn't understand them and generally refuses to do them. By him not completing these types of problems on quizzes and tests, it has brought his grade down to its current level. His organization has improved, but still
needs to continue to improve. When DS likes what he is doing he is focused and works well. When he does not like what he is doing, he finds ways to be distracted or shuts down. When I am instructing the class on a new concept he does not tend to listen - he draws pictures on his papers. His organization has gotten better, but still needs to improve."

So that's all the testy stuff and relevant comments I noticed. My main questions are, did they do an adequate job testing what I was concerned about? (I did mention every test you mentioned in your post AEH) Are they correct that the testing doesn't show anything interesting (other than a relative weakness in the verbal area)? What might cause DS to not excel at information and drop quite a bit in vocab when everyone who knows him would assume that the more concrete stuff would be a strength for him? And finally, how much would the time limit on various subtests be expected to impact the score? If it was a factor, how was it not a factor the last time he was tested?

We have an IEP meeting to go over everything on Wednesday, so I'm just trying to get all my thoughts in order. The testing looks good to me and I was able to speak with the examiner who was very friendly and said he really enjoyed his time with DS. I didn't really expect DS to do as well as the last time, but I was surprised at some of the things that dropped and by how much.

Just talking to DS now as he is smacking himself on the face, a recurring tic he has that he says he has to do because his skin and bones feel wrong if he doesn't do it. His tics are way worse now than they were at age 7, they take a lot of his time and mental effort to perform/suppress. I wonder if this could also affect testing? I know it affects his work output. I feel so bad for the kid sometimes, but there are some things a parent just can't help with and that's just something we all have to live with.

Oh, just remembered, the FBA showed by far most behavior was escape/avoidance as I suspected, with an equal smattering of the other fun options. The FBA was less useful than it might have been as it was started after changes were made to the schedule. It does make it pretty obvious there wasn't really any behavior of concern after the good PCA took over. DS has a lot of anxiety, and to me this whole thing was about fight or flight response. It was when they took away flight as an option that he resorted to fight. And it was poor staffing choices that caused him to feel the need to flee to begin with.

And I might as well mention a happy development for DS. I started teaching him piano at the end of 2019 and he quickly surpassed me (not saying much, I'm not great). I got him into lessons shortly before Covid hit, so he did most of his study remotely until recently. Even so he has really excelled and also started composing almost right away. We finally found him a composition teacher a few months ago and it looks like DS is actually quite good. He has a few songs completed at this point (and a bunch in progress) and his teacher is looking for a venue for him to perform at. This is what DS wants to do with his life, he is very passionate about it! We are thrilled. His disabilities won't be a big deal and even if he can't perform himself (sometimes his tics cause issues with playing) he can compose for others. He is especially interested in composing for movies and video games. Oddly he had never shown any interest in playing an instrument before this and pretty much never sings!

WOW, the piano progress sounds GREAT! As a side benefit, it appears as though playing the piano keeps his hands busy and therefore replaces the tics during the time of that activity. I am so happy to hear that.