Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about the Davidson Academyís online campus for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute
  • DITD FaceBook   DITD Twitter   DITD YouTube
    The Davidson Institute is on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube!

    How gifted-friendly is
    your state?

    Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update

    Who's Online
    0 registered (), 0 Guests and 71 Spiders online.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    Arlo, Henry M, Twill, Sassafras, PatZz
    11188 Registered Users
    August
    Su M Tu W Th F Sa
    1 2 3 4 5 6
    7 8 9 10 11 12 13
    14 15 16 17 18 19 20
    21 22 23 24 25 26 27
    28 29 30 31
    Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
    Topic Options
    #248965 - 06/20/21 03:51 PM Update - Is it worth taking 5 year old to testing?
    galun Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 09/26/16
    Posts: 25
    Hi. Our oldest son is 13 years old and is DYS via WISC-V testing at 8 years old. He got 19 in 4 subtests if I recall correctly, and he did the extended norms test. The results helped us guide his development over the past five years, namely single subject acceleration instead of full grade acceleration, and using a problem solving based vs traditional approach to learn math.

    His younger brother, who is 5 years old and 3 months, is reading his sisterís books. She is 11 years old and entering 6th grade. He seem to comprehend most things in the books even though he doesnít know some of the words yet. There are numerous other things in his development that reminded us of how it was like when our oldest son was at that age. So we suspect our youngest is PG like his older brother.

    The question I am asking is whether development at 5 years old is already stable enough where testing will give us actionable information to help guide his development. With our oldest son, the results from WISC-V at age 8 were detailed enough for us to identify his strengths and shape his independent education plan. I am wondering whether testing at age 5 (WPPI-IV I think?) can provide the same useful information, or at that age the child is still developing and itís not useful. Given that our oldest son is PG and our observation of our youngest son, we donít really need to know an actual score to confirm some level of giftedness. However if the test at 5 years old is like WISC-V that gives us actionable information to guide his development, we will pay for a test.

    Thanks!


    Edited by galun (04/15/22 05:33 PM)

    Top
    #248966 - 06/20/21 04:14 PM Re: Is it worth taking our 5 year old to testing? [Re: galun]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3974
    While your speculation that development is more fluid at this age is well founded, it's still possible testing could be helpful, especially if you found your previous experience to be informative, however, if I were in your position, I would consider waiting until your younger child is at least six (and maybe even just a little older--eight is a good age), so he can be administered the WISC instead of the WPPSI. If he is in the same range as his older sibling, he is likely to hit the ceiling of the WPPSI, in which case the testing results won't be as helpful to you, since all they will tell you is what you already know (which is that he is very bright!). The WISC extended norms allow for substantially more range in the upper extreme than the WPPSI does.

    In the meantime, you can continue observing him and the way he interacts with and explores the world, which may well provide you with the kind of information you seek.
    _________________________
    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...

    Top
    #248968 - 06/20/21 06:05 PM Re: Is it worth taking our 5 year old to testing? [Re: galun]
    galun Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 09/26/16
    Posts: 25
    Hi aeh, great advise as usual, thank you! Will wait till 6 yo for wisc-v.

    Top
    #249647 - 04/15/22 05:27 PM Re: Is it worth taking our 5 year old to testing? [Re: galun]
    galun Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 09/26/16
    Posts: 25
    Our son turned 6 and we had him tested with WISC-V. Aeh or others, can you please give feedback to my interpretation of the results? We will have a follow up consult with the psychologist and want to better understand his profile so we can ask better questions. Extended norms test was conducted since 3 main modules hit 19.

    VCI 161
    SIM-EN 19/20
    VOC-EN 19/20

    VSI 132
    BD 16
    VP 15

    FRI 165
    MR-EN 19/24
    FW 17
    Arithmetic 19

    WMI 132
    DS 17
    PS 15

    PSI 129
    Cd 15
    SS 15

    FSIQ 159
    GAI 162
    CPI 138

    1). Aeh - you gave advice on my older son as well. He had FSIQ 144 and GAI 151 - this was before extended norms were developed and IIRC he hit the ceiling on a few modules back then. For my older son, you mentioned that there was a big difference in FSIQ and GAI, but you stopped short of suggesting learning disability. Do you see potential for hidden learning disability here? Is the amount of difference between VCI / FRI and VSI / WMI / PSI enough to be a potential cause for concern?. http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/B...html#Post234435

    2). My interpretation of VCI/FRI and VSI/WMI/PSI is that he has high verbal and non verbal intelligence, but processing / creating output at age appropriate speed. It matches our observation of him - often when he was asked a question he would take a relatively long time to provide an answer, but when the answer was finally provided it would often be surprising, and when asked to explain his answer it would be full of complicated logic (for his age). This seems fine to us, but is there anything else that we should be aware of for a child with this profile?

    3). Our decision and experience with our older DYS, who is now 13, has been to keep him in public school and not grade accelerate so he can develop normal social / emotional skills with age appropriate peers, while providing in class acceleration and external enrichment at his appropriate achievement level to keep things interesting. We are of the mindset that the IQ will likely lead to success for him in whatever he ends up being passionate about, but that IQ is useless without developing appropriate EQ throughout his life in dealing with people in the real world. Thatís why we decided against schools for gifted children (we think itís a bubble that does not represent the real world), and went with public school with in school IEP and external enrichment. It has worked out pretty well and we are inclined to do the same for our younger son, but he is one full SD (15 points) in FSIQ higher than his older brother (difference in GAI is lower, only 11 points). Do you see potential cause of concern for our youngest if we follow the same strategy for our oldest?

    4). My understanding of FRI is that itís kinda a engineer / computer programmer / abstract creator type skill. Given his score in that domain, we plan on focusing enrichment in that area - like mathy stuff, coding games, abstract puzzle solving, AoPS style of learning math, etc. But his VCI is high as well and we are not quite sure what that means. We are looking for appropriate themes of external enrichment / activities that someone with high VCI/FRI might like and enjoy. Thoughts?

    5). He has developed some social issues in class. He is impatient with his peers since they are too slow. He complains that he has no friends in school. Even though he is 6, you have to earn his respect for him to address youÖ like for instance he would respond to the main teacher, but roll his eyes at the teaching assistant because he can already perceive that the TA is not as good as the teacher. His verbal treatment to some of his age appropriate peers can be downright nasty sometimes, but super sweet at other times. We shared this observation with the psychologist who administer WISC-V and he spent some time exploring this. He does not think there is an inherent issue - i.e. hidden disability. He thinks our son just need to learn appropriate social norms with some adult assistance. The school, given our sonís behavior, has started reaching out to put together a child study team. What is the most appropriate and diplomatic way to communicate this to the school?

    We have a very accommodating school district, and they know us from having two older child already through the system with IEP. I am pretty sure they will try their best to adopt whatever plan we present to them, so we are just trying to come up with the best plan for our youngest.

    Thanks!


    Edited by galun (04/16/22 09:14 AM)

    Top
    #249681 - 04/23/22 05:14 PM Re: Is it worth taking our 5 year old to testing? [Re: galun]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3974
    Thanks for the nudge, galun!

    1&2. This DC also has some pretty big index differences, but I am not really concerned about learning disabilities on first look, as his lowest areas (VS, WM, PS) are very strong too. (These scores are not age-appropriate; they are on the border of Very High and Extremely High, around +2 SDs above the mean. Reasoning scores in this range would be considered impressively high in the general population.) It may be accurate to say that his memory/speed/output are relatively low (in comparison with his own abstract reasoning skills), but in absolute terms they are well above NT same-age peers.

    3. The standard deviation difference is something to think about in terms of how remaining with age-peers and addressing his needs through in-class differentiation and enrichment. The main area of difference that we can document between them is that DC2 is much stronger in verbal cognition--which is most of elementary school. It's also easier for a motivated teacher to differentiate in the early years. But both of them are strongest in fluid reasoning, which can manifest in almost any academic skill area, since it's about conceptual understanding. Appropriate placement for a specific child also is dependent on many other factors, including non-academic ones (e.g., temperament, social needs/strengths, executive functions, family needs). Rather than suggesting a specific placement, I would encourage you simply to cultivate an environment where you and your DC communicate frequently and openly about how he is experiencing his schooling, so that you can investigate and problem-solve any challenges early, as they are arising, and before they start to compound. But as a generalization, the further outside of the norm a learner is, the more likely it is that they will need some kind of adjustment to the conventional school program.

    4. As with his formal school setting, I would suggest instead simply presenting him with opportunities to explore and play with various topics and activities, rather than trying to tailor his experience toward any specific direction. His cognitive profile is actually quite balanced, and strong enough in every area assessed that where he thrives the most is likely going to be much more a function of what he loves than of his nominal scores. Follow his lead; what he responds to will tell you how to foster his loves and passions. He's still very young, and all enrichment really should feel like play.

    5. Sometimes the asynchrony of very high academic cognition and, well, being six, can create social challenges that are perceived as behavioral. If the school has been supportive in the past with your other GT children, I would expect that knowing these current pieces of information about his cognition would help them develop more effective plans for helping him learn some more adaptive ways of navigating his classroom environment. You know the staff there best, but it sounds like you could be fairly straightforward and direct in letting them know that you also have been trying to collect information that might help with his behavior in class, and these are the findings your evaluator presented to you.

    The typical (and simplest) intervention would be to have a school staff member (likely adjustment counselor/social worker, guidance counselor, school psychologist, or even speech therapist or occupational therapist) run a little friendship group with him and a couple of his classmates (or possibly a rotating couple of classmates), where s/he gently coaches all of them through social interactions while they engage in some sort of fun social activity (card/board game, working on a puzzle or creative project together, etc.). It's actually a pretty common situation for kindergartners of all cognitive levels (and even more so for these pandemic cohorts), so this should be a familiar plan for the school team.

    The other dimension that might help with behavior is looking into additional academic challenge. If he has more engaging and appropriate (for him) instructional tasks, he might have less time and attention to fill with undesirable behaviors. What looks like his impatience with his peers might actually be an expression of his own unsatisfied hunger for more. Small children (even very bright ones) don't always know how to define their own discomfort. They just know that something doesn't feel right.
    _________________________
    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...

    Top
    #249682 - 04/23/22 06:06 PM Re: Is it worth taking our 5 year old to testing? [Re: galun]
    galun Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 09/26/16
    Posts: 25
    Thank you so much aeh! I think we know how to proceed. Thank you thank you thank you!

    Top
    #249688 - 04/26/22 03:51 PM Re: Is it worth taking our 5 year old to testing? [Re: galun]
    ChasingTwo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/07/16
    Posts: 78
    Hello, I hope you donít mind if I comment as well. I am not a psychologist, but I do have two DYSs in extended norms (one recently retested). I would like to question your belief on gifted schools and here is why. Your child is very exceptional. I mean that in a statistical way. No amount of socializing with non-gifted kids or learning to dumb himself down to fit in is going to change his exceptionality. For many children with similar scores, a gifted school is not a pampered treat, itís a necessity for survival and mental health. In some ways, an IQ in this range without adequate supports can be incredibly challenging. Imagine putting a child with an IQ of 40 into a regular classroom and hoping for the best. I am not saying that gifted schools are the only option or even the best option for everyone. Each child is unique, but these kids often require much more creative education solutions. It sounds like your child may already be starting to communicate that. I wish you the best of luck.

    Top
    #249689 - 04/26/22 04:17 PM Re: Is it worth taking our 5 year old to testing? [Re: ChasingTwo]
    Eagle Mum Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/24/20
    Posts: 150
    Loc: Australia
    Originally Posted By: ChasingTwo
    No amount of socializing with non-gifted kids or learning to dumb himself down to fit in is going to change his exceptionality.

    Or the gifted kid doesnít dumb him/herself down and works out how to be his/her true self amongst a range of other kids, which represents society at large. DS has always attended mainstream schools where his personable, welcoming approach to everyone has actually made him a natural leader (his athleticism probably does contribute). He honestly doesnít care if heís liked or popular, but heís very inventive and gets so enthused about his interests (origami, speedcubing, chess, ball games, music) that he draws in other kids and unintentionally creates hubs where kids can simply share common interests without forming any formal group structure or social hierarchy because he is leading but doesnít even think of himself as being the leader and treats everyone equally. This benefits a lot of lonely kids because whomever he welcomes, which is pretty much anybody, is comfortable being in the group.

    I observed a colleague, now retired, who had exceptionally brilliant work-related insights and ideas, but was ineffectual at communicating his ideas to the majority because he simply couldnít Ďget onto the same wavelengthí of the average person to adequately explain his thoughts to them. His ideas would never have benefited anyone if a couple of colleagues and I hadnít been able to recognise the advantages of his suggestions and carry them across to others, giving credit to the originator.

    Throughout my career, I have found it highly advantageous that I can calibrate my explanations to a wide range of individuals. Weíre more likely to get collaborative work completed to a satisfactorily high standard if everyone performs their role to the best of their ability & understanding of whatís required and personally Iíve found it very rewarding when junior colleagues have that ĎAh ha!í moment of clear understanding because Iíve taken the time and effort to address whatever query theyíve brought. I had a lot of practice with these skills at school when I was the Ďbrainy geekí that everyone came to for help, so whilst my own school experience was a bit lonely (largely to do with my family dynamics which I wonít get into here), Iím so glad that I always helped anyone who approached me. Now, my kids get to experience the best of all worlds because they are well resourced and given the freedom to steer their own paths.

    Top
    #249690 - 04/26/22 05:57 PM Re: Is it worth taking our 5 year old to testing? [Re: galun]
    ChasingTwo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/07/16
    Posts: 78
    I am very happy for you and your child, Eagle Mum. You are fortunate. Some of our kids end up at gifted schools after exhausting many other options. As I said above, not all gifted kids will need a special education environment with various gifted supports. Some will do well in general education. But the chance of this goes down as IQ goes up. At age 5/6, very often behavior is communication. We have to try to figure out what they are telling us.

    Top
    #249691 - 04/26/22 06:07 PM Re: Is it worth taking our 5 year old to testing? [Re: ChasingTwo]
    Eagle Mum Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/24/20
    Posts: 150
    Loc: Australia
    I was definitely prepared with back up options if mainstream hadnít worked out, but a lot of gifted families look for schools with gifted programs as their first option and I definitely think interacting with the widest possible range of people is beneficial. DS has also attended both the School of Excellence and Selection School of our Maths Olympiad program, as well as our National Mathematics Summer School so he regularly mixes with the most mathematically gifted kids in our country as well, so he can pretty much connect with anyone.

    Iíve actually been the Ďodd one outí and that was at the top selective school in our state (although the pool of talent was obviously larger in the US), so Iíve reflected a lot about how best to fit in with society because you are right - the higher an individualís IQ, the less likely that most of the population are going to have the abilities to be able to actively contribute to mutually rewarding connections, so to be able to collaborate and interact positively (if thatís the goal), the effort most likely has to come from the individual at the higher operating level.

    Top
    Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


    Moderator:  M-Moderator 
    Recent Posts
    I feel like a failure
    by giftedamateur
    08/10/22 11:09 AM
    Speed reading
    by aquinas
    08/09/22 01:23 PM
    Understanding testing!
    by Klangedin
    08/09/22 12:20 PM
    linking to posts in General Discussion forum
    by giftedamateur
    08/04/22 06:42 PM
    Correlation btw WASI & WISC? Referral form weight?
    by aeh
    07/28/22 09:08 AM
    Davidson Institute Twitter