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    Wren Offline OP
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    And this doesn't address engineers. They don't have a choice in what they take, since this is a bachelor degree. Though I did have an elective my first year.

    And as for jack of all trades and soft skills, in the era of online job hunting and AI type scanning of resumes, how is that going to get you a job? I am not trying to be difficult, I just view the current landscape and make my assessment.

    Not what we did, but how do our kids navigate this world.

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    And do you know the breakdown of majors 40 years ago? I don’t.... but I still argue that being roundly educated makes one more valuable. I didn’t say it’s easy- yes competition is fierce. If you don’t major in science, you need to be able to show without a doubt that you could have and absolutely excel in those classes. But I guess that’s my point- those are the students I want taking care of my mom. And designing AI, for that matter. Our kids both strongly preferred colleges that had a required core or general Ed requirements, because the said they didn’t want to be surrounded by kids who were narrowly focused on one thing. But that is clearly a luxury only certain students can afford (both literally and educationally, as you point out).

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    aeh Offline
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    I am, on this topic as on many, ambivalent. I work in a very specialist career-oriented educational institution which sends many learners on to technical institutes rather than liberal arts colleges (although some to the latter as well), and see the benefits of this type of education highlighed daily. But I also came to my present through a rather circuitous path that traversed liberal arts, STEM, generalist and specialist education.

    And although there are many technical specialists in my extended family, there have also been a handful of classicists (some of even more ancient cultures than Greece or Rome).

    It seems to me that there are two different goals here regarding liberal arts education versus specialist education: career preparation and educating citizens. On the former, I suspect that what is most effective for obtaining satisfying work that supports one's material needs is constantly changing, but should be open at least somewhat to objective study (i.e., there is probably relevant data out there). On the latter--well, that depends on how we define an educated citizen. If liberal arts education generates mature adults who are able to think objectively and rationally about their own and other's ideas and actions, to take alternate perspectives, to disagree without being disagreeable, and otherwise to engage in civil discourse, then I am onboard. Is the study of the Greek and Roman classics necessary or sufficient for this? That is another question. Are our current liberal arts institutions succeeding in this task? That is yet another question.

    And in one of the curious shifts that do occur, I seem to recall that PhD (Doctor of Philosophy) used to refer to someone whose breadth of knowledge and understanding crossed multiple fields in humanities and sciences--a lover of all kinds of knowledge, and usually a teacher. Yet now it almost always is applied to someone who has gone deep into extremely specialized study.


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    aeh makes an excellent point about the importance of defining what constitutes "an educated citizen".

    As a secondary consideration, we then also have to overlay the lens of rewards to the individual vs rewards to society, if we want to create an accurate benefit-cost understanding. After all, *who* pays and *who* benefits is material in the calculus. I'll lay that aside for now, though.

    I have my own views on this. I quite like aeh's working definition, so I'm quoting it below, but feel free to throw in whatever amendments you like. Part of the challenge in this discussion lies in the fact that we are inferring skills from credentials, which may not be valid. What I like about aeh's definition is that it speaks to behaviours, which arise from skills.

    Originally Posted by aeh
    mature adults who are able to think objectively and rationally about their own and other's ideas and actions, to take alternate perspectives, to disagree without being disagreeable, and otherwise to engage in civil discourse

    My questions for the group, if people are interested, would be:

    1/ What share of liberal arts university grads actually meet these criteria? That would speak to the effectiveness of the current system of general PSE education.

    2/ To what extent are these skills currently fostered in publicly-funded K-12 education? PISA scores give us some clue as to current PSE readiness, if we want to use that as a proxy for potential for adult level mastery, blunt measure that it is.

    3/ How could programming be amended in K-12 to enhance student acquisition of these skills?

    My thoughts:

    Full disclosure: I'm not a fan of the catch-all "educated citizen" concept - it's too amorphous to measure and enact. Really, effective thinking and citizenship distills into a constellation of presumably teachable skills. Otherwise, we're aiming at ether.

    We can think of "educated citizenry" as existing on a continuum. K-12 education allows the student to achieve X% of the target adult score. There's probably some minimally sufficient level of education that enables citizens to participate meaningfully in society, make informed decisions as voters that supports the well-being of the collective, and engage socially and commercially in a way that is beneficial to the individual and collective. As a society (I'm lumping together traditional ed across countries here), we've decided this is high school. But the proxy is a credential, rather than a verifiable set of discrete skills.

    Moreover, it seems plausible that socially optimal outcomes only require a certain Y% of the population to achieve adult proficiency. My view is we can get much of the way to adult proficiency for the majority of the population by the end of HS with deliberate curriculum design and *explicit* instruction in logic, critical thinking, and discourse.



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    I'll answer my own questions separately.

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    1/ What share of liberal arts university grads actually meet these criteria? That would speak to the effectiveness of the current system of general PSE education.

    From personal experience, at the undergraduate level, less than one quarter. At the graduate level, a ceiling of half.

    Quote
    2/ To what extent are these skills currently fostered in publicly-funded K-12 education? PISA scores give us some clue as to current PSE readiness, if we want to use that as a proxy for potential for adult level mastery, blunt measure that it is.

    If we're using PISA level 5 and 6 standards, the answer is "not very well". The world's top scoring countries are only achieving level 4 scores, and most high-income countries' scores are in the level 3 range.

    See the 2018 PISA scores for yourselves (summary):
    https://www.oecd.org/pisa/PISA-results_ENGLISH.png

    PISA levels definitions:
    https://www.oecd.org/pisa/aboutpisa/PISA%20scales%20for%20pisa-based%20test%20for%20schools.pdf

    Mid-length 2018 PISA interpretation report - see pp.5-8 for country-specific scores on levels:
    https://www.oecd.org/pisa/PISA%202018%20Insights%20and%20Interpretations%20FINAL%20PDF.pdf

    Full 2018 PISA score interpretation guide:
    https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites...80670e&itemIGO=oecd&itemContentType=book

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    3/ How could programming be amended in K-12 to enhance student acquisition of these skills?

    Explicit, evidence-based instruction in logic, rhetoric, and critical analysis of information throughout K-12. I'd also like to see more extensive instruction in statistics and data analysis be made mandatory throughout high school.

    Obviously the former relies on sound literacy teaching in the early years. And this latter piece would stand on the shoulders of stronger basic math instruction, which I've spoken about at length in other posts (e.g. Singapore methods, math specialist teachers, additional supports and tutoring for students falling behind, and acceleration opportunities for students capable of more.)

    Other posters will, I'm sure, have more information about specific programming options, which I'm eager to learn about.


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    Wren Offline OP
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    Morning Joe, again. This time they had the critic and the president of Howard U. He said you can still take the courses, not cancelling the courses, but want to provide a more progressive education. It is interesting because classics is about western civilization and they said that is limiting, now that we know so much more about other cultures. Narrow focus.

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