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    Originally Posted by Kai
    I'm surprised that the TV said that the various cultural studies are also being cancelled/disbanded. I thought those were quite popular.

    Unfortunately, much of what passes for the humanities today is actually activism. The difference between a truly humanistic attitude toward knowledge and activism is that a real humanist is searching for truth whereas an activist is convinced that they already know what truth is.
    Agreed.

    I recently saw a set of two photos. One was a busy commercial street, lights ablaze, heavy traffic, bustling, high energy. The other showed green hills and valleys, with a road winding through, slow-paced, relaxing. There was considerable discussion and conjecture about the two photos, until it was ultimately revealed that both showed the same location, just from a different perspective.

    This also brings to mind the story of the blind man and the elephant:
    Originally Posted by wikipedia
    A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and form. Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it they groped about it. The first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said, "This being is like a thick snake". For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, the elephant is a pillar like a tree-trunk. The blind man who placed his hand upon its side said the elephant, "is a wall". Another who felt its tail, described it as a rope. The last felt its tusk, stating the elephant is that which is hard, smooth and like a spear.

    In some versions, the blind men then discover their disagreements, suspect the others to be not telling the truth and come to blows. The stories also differ primarily in how the elephant's body parts are described, how violent the conflict becomes and how (or if) the conflict among the men and their perspectives is resolved. In some versions, they stop talking, start listening and collaborate to "see" the full elephant. In another, a sighted man enters the parable and describes the entire elephant from various perspectives, the blind men then learn that they were all partially correct and partially wrong. While one's subjective experience is true, it may not be the totality of truth.

    Seeking TRUTH is a life-long quest, and science is never settled. To the degree that liberal arts and humanities studies encourage the sense of being a life-long learner, they are immensely beneficial.

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    Wren Offline OP
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    Originally Posted by indigo
    Originally Posted by acgoldis
    A pity. I know humanities graduates tend to have a lot of soft skills which can be in demand. They can also be good jacks of all trades. A humanities education may allow people to be more content in life and happy with their situation. They are valued for who they are rather than what they produce.
    Agreed.

    A debate has been ongoing for decades: the value of liberal arts education (sometimes called classical education, or the education of free people) -vs- career-oriented education (sometimes called vocational training, or the task-oriented training traditionally given to peasants).

    Indigo, are you saying medical school grads are peasants? because that is career oriented education. Also, the engineers that build bridges, buildings, car engines.

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    This is less about cancelling programs outright than reducing bloating and departmental inefficiencies from having multiple redundant, relatively unmarketable programs offered. Yes, there is room for classical education at some universities. No, the supply currently provided is not well calibrated to market demand, particularly at institutions that are publicly subsidized.

    To Kai's point, I agree that the line between inquiry and opinion has blurred immeasurably in many humanities programs. With access to computing being what it is, and with the zeitgeist of grants for culturally linked research, there is no reason these fields can't build on an evidence-based foundation and create value, rather than engaging in sophistry.

    But do I think, all else equal, that funding for a university seat should be given to someone studying Medieval Ukrainian bridal rites among the aristocracy vs a nanotechnologist? Absolutely not, if I'm footing part of the bill as a taxpayer.

    And to wren's point, if job specific training is "peasant" work, then I guess I'll be entrusting my life to a lowly peasant should I ever need a coronary bypass... *grin*



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    Originally Posted by aquinas
    And to wren's point, if job specific training is "peasant" work, then I guess I'll be entrusting my life to a lowly peasant should I ever need a coronary bypass... *grin*


    With all due respect, medical school applicants who majored in humanities (I was one long ago) are much in demand, and have been for years. None of these things are mutually exclusive, though the study of diverse and less directly profitable subjects may be increasingly difficult for the typical student to pursue in today’s economy,

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    Originally Posted by cricket3
    Originally Posted by aquinas
    And to wren's point, if job specific training is "peasant" work, then I guess I'll be entrusting my life to a lowly peasant should I ever need a coronary bypass... *grin*


    With all due respect, medical school applicants who majored in humanities (I was one long ago) are much in demand, and have been for years. None of these things are mutually exclusive, though the study of diverse and less directly profitable subjects may be increasingly difficult for the typical student to pursue in today’s economy,

    I believe you misunderstand me. The absurdity of characterizing any group as "peasants", specifically one as obviously skilled as cardiac surgeons, is why I made this tongue-in-cheek comment.

    As you say, they are not mutually exclusive.


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    Apologies- it probably stems from knowing a few surgeons (and no, they are not peasants, but many of them seem to suffer from a deficit in humanities education).

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    Originally Posted by cricket3
    Apologies- it probably stems from knowing a few surgeons (and no, they are not peasants, but many of them seem to suffer from a deficit in humanities education).

    No worries, my friend! smile


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    Originally Posted by Wren
    Originally Posted by indigo
    Originally Posted by acgoldis
    A pity. I know humanities graduates tend to have a lot of soft skills which can be in demand. They can also be good jacks of all trades. A humanities education may allow people to be more content in life and happy with their situation. They are valued for who they are rather than what they produce.
    Agreed.

    A debate has been ongoing for decades: the value of liberal arts education (sometimes called classical education, or the education of free people) -vs- career-oriented education (sometimes called vocational training, or the task-oriented training traditionally given to peasants).

    Indigo, are you saying medical school grads are peasants? because that is career oriented education. Also, the engineers that build bridges, buildings, car engines.

    No, Wren, your example of medical school is not the task-oriented training traditionally given to peasants.

    Sorry if you found my BRIEF summary of the long-standing debate over the value of liberal arts education to be confusing. No doubt you can read longer explanations elsewhere which may provide the clarity you seek.

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    Originally Posted by cricket3, 2 posts
    ... medical school applicants who majored in humanities ... are much in demand, and have been for years. None of these things are mutually exclusive, though the study of diverse and less directly profitable subjects may be increasingly difficult for the typical student to pursue in today’s economy... knowing a few surgeons ... seem to suffer from a deficit in humanities education.
    Agreed! smile This brings to mind a series of about 6 old posts, beginning here... also, I think, some wisdom here, for life-long learners:
    Originally Posted by Wren, 2 posts
    DH was a physician. But was so interested in history. He read 2 texts per week on some topic he was into... You can get into any topic, but being a physician made the money. I have read so many European classics in literature, maybe more than more literature majors. Yet I took engineering and ended on Wall st. Didn't stop me from reading 7000 pages of Proust. I think you can cover a lot of the humanities on your own when gifted... focus on what gives you a job.

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    I just want to say that this was 40 years ago.

    I just looked up the stats for 2019. And these are the breakdown of the 21000 approx that got into medical school.

    The most common majors were:

    Biological sciences—11,843 total matriculants.
    Physical sciences—2,214.
    Social sciences—2,107.
    Humanities—797.
    Specialized health sciences—650.
    Math and statistics—168.

    My view is that what I did will not work in 2021. It is a very different world for my kid. Like old haematologists were the first oncologists. Now oncologists are totally specialized. It is a very different world. Canada still doesn't recognize MDs from anywhere in the world except the US. My husband looked into it when we first thought to move to Canada. If you went to school in the US, trained in the US, and practiced in the US, you could automatically get a medical license in Canada. No other medical training is recognized without some further training in Canada.

    My view. I also think that you can indulge yourself into classics outside of school. Dante's divine comedy is available for anyone who wants to read it. But sciences have gotten way more intense. My father had a slide ruler in engineering.

    Our discussion here is about getting the best options for our kids. And best options are changing. Our guidance counsellor said that you don't need APs for Harvard. Some get in without. Yet, this alumni who interviews says that the Harvard entrant now has an average of 8 AP courses. Without SAT, it becomes way more important.

    People used to apply to a handful of medical schools. Now they apply to 30 due to the competition.

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