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    Wren Offline OP
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    Howard U is taking out its classics dept and the discussion on TV mentioned that all kinds of humanities are being cancelled, women's studies, African American studies et al.

    That the focus is getting more and more on what gets me a job. Not to get a PhD and wait on tables.

    It is sad but on the other hand we have this rising emphasis on STEM, pushing girls in STEM workshops. And grads coming out of engineering or comp sci do get jobs.

    But with the shrinking humanities studies, there will be less opportunities for those that choose that path.

    I wish that DD's school had more classics earlier. They do introduce latin in 8th grade, but I think there should have be more. Classics should be a requirement in high school.

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    I'm surprised that the TV said that the various cultural studies are also being cancelled/disbanded. I thought those were quite popular.

    Unfortunately, much of what passes for the humanities today is actually activism. The difference between a truly humanistic attitude toward knowledge and activism is that a real humanist is searching for truth whereas an activist is convinced that they already know what truth is.

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    Went looking for details, nothing found yet with a web search. Not finding this on the Howard U website, either. The Howard Newsroom webpage does not mention a change in focus or cuts to humanities, no press release, no recent media coverage, no statement by the Office of University Communications: https://newsroom.howard.edu/

    Therefore I'm asking you Wren, do you have a link to a source? For example, the TV discussion you saw?

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    Multiple links to commentary - this is just one piece

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/04/19/cornel-west-howard-classics/

    Though it should be noted, this is not technically about getting rid of classics at Howard, the department is being dissolved and the classes will be offered through other departments, as I understand it. Which is something being discussed in many academic classics departments, not just Howard. But the issue is distinctly different from Universities and colleges getting rid of humanities departments and classes (also not new, but perhaps accelerating)- as in the state of Wisconsin university system.

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    A pity. I know humanities graduates tend to have a lot of soft skills which can be in demand. They can also be good jacks of all trades. A humanities education may allow people to be more content in life and happy with their situation. They are valued for who they are rather than what they produce.

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    Thanks, cricket3.
    Unfortunately, I was unable to access the article at the link you provided but used that link to search the WayBack Machine, internet archive. Found the article there and could read it. Thanks again.

    Archived article here.

    Link - https://web.archive.org/web/20210420002255/https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/04/19/cornel-west-howard-classics/

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    Wren Offline OP
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    I saw the discussion on Morning Joe. They had Eddie Glaude, Head of Princeton's African American studies making the statement about humanities being scrapped, not just the classics at Howard U.

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    Thanks, aeh.

    After reading the article you linked, I skimmed the website of the Classical Studies organization.
    I saw an article on integrating transgender studies with the classics.
    This causes me to question: why not integrate gifted studies with the classics?!

    A websearch shows the US percentage of the population which self-identifies as transgender: 0.58% on average, 2.77% in DC
    https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/transgender-population-by-state. Meanwhile, with 2.5% of the population identified as gifted (IQs above 130), and an even higher percentage when IQs above 120 are considered... it appears that there is a much larger number of gifted persons than trans persons (regardless of potential intersectionality).

    It would be beneficial to affirm, validate, support, and protect invisible, overlooked gifted persons, for example, by including the study of gifted populations in Humanities, alongside other populations currently studied. Such efforts might increase cultural tolerance, acceptance, and inclusion of diverse, divergent, creative, out-of-the-box thinkers and thereby reduce or eliminate societal problems such as:
    1) Misdiagnoses, alienation (SENG YouTube video)

    2) Suicide, alienation - https://www.sengifted.org/post/seng-s-25th-anniversary-conference-reflections-on-seng-s-history
    3) Drugs, incarceration, alienation - https://www.sengifted.org/post/at-risk-gifted

    Beyond those thoughts on Humanities in general, there is concern for changing the focus of college/university offerings away from "liberal arts" and toward job training... this old post comes to mind, which links several discussion threads:
    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....ing_out_of_CTY_and_decre.html#Post244668

    Bottom Line: Is Howard U, a top HBCU, following the best course of action for its students?

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    Originally Posted by acgoldis
    A pity. I know humanities graduates tend to have a lot of soft skills which can be in demand. They can also be good jacks of all trades. A humanities education may allow people to be more content in life and happy with their situation. They are valued for who they are rather than what they produce.
    Agreed.

    A debate has been ongoing for decades: the value of liberal arts education (sometimes called classical education, or the education of free people) -vs- career-oriented education (sometimes called vocational training, or the task-oriented training traditionally given to peasants).

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    Originally Posted by Kai
    I'm surprised that the TV said that the various cultural studies are also being cancelled/disbanded. I thought those were quite popular.

    Unfortunately, much of what passes for the humanities today is actually activism. The difference between a truly humanistic attitude toward knowledge and activism is that a real humanist is searching for truth whereas an activist is convinced that they already know what truth is.
    Agreed.

    I recently saw a set of two photos. One was a busy commercial street, lights ablaze, heavy traffic, bustling, high energy. The other showed green hills and valleys, with a road winding through, slow-paced, relaxing. There was considerable discussion and conjecture about the two photos, until it was ultimately revealed that both showed the same location, just from a different perspective.

    This also brings to mind the story of the blind man and the elephant:
    Originally Posted by wikipedia
    A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and form. Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it they groped about it. The first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said, "This being is like a thick snake". For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, the elephant is a pillar like a tree-trunk. The blind man who placed his hand upon its side said the elephant, "is a wall". Another who felt its tail, described it as a rope. The last felt its tusk, stating the elephant is that which is hard, smooth and like a spear.

    In some versions, the blind men then discover their disagreements, suspect the others to be not telling the truth and come to blows. The stories also differ primarily in how the elephant's body parts are described, how violent the conflict becomes and how (or if) the conflict among the men and their perspectives is resolved. In some versions, they stop talking, start listening and collaborate to "see" the full elephant. In another, a sighted man enters the parable and describes the entire elephant from various perspectives, the blind men then learn that they were all partially correct and partially wrong. While one's subjective experience is true, it may not be the totality of truth.

    Seeking TRUTH is a life-long quest, and science is never settled. To the degree that liberal arts and humanities studies encourage the sense of being a life-long learner, they are immensely beneficial.

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    Wren Offline OP
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    Originally Posted by indigo
    Originally Posted by acgoldis
    A pity. I know humanities graduates tend to have a lot of soft skills which can be in demand. They can also be good jacks of all trades. A humanities education may allow people to be more content in life and happy with their situation. They are valued for who they are rather than what they produce.
    Agreed.

    A debate has been ongoing for decades: the value of liberal arts education (sometimes called classical education, or the education of free people) -vs- career-oriented education (sometimes called vocational training, or the task-oriented training traditionally given to peasants).

    Indigo, are you saying medical school grads are peasants? because that is career oriented education. Also, the engineers that build bridges, buildings, car engines.

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    This is less about cancelling programs outright than reducing bloating and departmental inefficiencies from having multiple redundant, relatively unmarketable programs offered. Yes, there is room for classical education at some universities. No, the supply currently provided is not well calibrated to market demand, particularly at institutions that are publicly subsidized.

    To Kai's point, I agree that the line between inquiry and opinion has blurred immeasurably in many humanities programs. With access to computing being what it is, and with the zeitgeist of grants for culturally linked research, there is no reason these fields can't build on an evidence-based foundation and create value, rather than engaging in sophistry.

    But do I think, all else equal, that funding for a university seat should be given to someone studying Medieval Ukrainian bridal rites among the aristocracy vs a nanotechnologist? Absolutely not, if I'm footing part of the bill as a taxpayer.

    And to wren's point, if job specific training is "peasant" work, then I guess I'll be entrusting my life to a lowly peasant should I ever need a coronary bypass... *grin*



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    Originally Posted by aquinas
    And to wren's point, if job specific training is "peasant" work, then I guess I'll be entrusting my life to a lowly peasant should I ever need a coronary bypass... *grin*


    With all due respect, medical school applicants who majored in humanities (I was one long ago) are much in demand, and have been for years. None of these things are mutually exclusive, though the study of diverse and less directly profitable subjects may be increasingly difficult for the typical student to pursue in today’s economy,

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    Originally Posted by cricket3
    Originally Posted by aquinas
    And to wren's point, if job specific training is "peasant" work, then I guess I'll be entrusting my life to a lowly peasant should I ever need a coronary bypass... *grin*


    With all due respect, medical school applicants who majored in humanities (I was one long ago) are much in demand, and have been for years. None of these things are mutually exclusive, though the study of diverse and less directly profitable subjects may be increasingly difficult for the typical student to pursue in today’s economy,

    I believe you misunderstand me. The absurdity of characterizing any group as "peasants", specifically one as obviously skilled as cardiac surgeons, is why I made this tongue-in-cheek comment.

    As you say, they are not mutually exclusive.


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    Apologies- it probably stems from knowing a few surgeons (and no, they are not peasants, but many of them seem to suffer from a deficit in humanities education).

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    Originally Posted by cricket3
    Apologies- it probably stems from knowing a few surgeons (and no, they are not peasants, but many of them seem to suffer from a deficit in humanities education).

    No worries, my friend! smile


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    Originally Posted by Wren
    Originally Posted by indigo
    Originally Posted by acgoldis
    A pity. I know humanities graduates tend to have a lot of soft skills which can be in demand. They can also be good jacks of all trades. A humanities education may allow people to be more content in life and happy with their situation. They are valued for who they are rather than what they produce.
    Agreed.

    A debate has been ongoing for decades: the value of liberal arts education (sometimes called classical education, or the education of free people) -vs- career-oriented education (sometimes called vocational training, or the task-oriented training traditionally given to peasants).

    Indigo, are you saying medical school grads are peasants? because that is career oriented education. Also, the engineers that build bridges, buildings, car engines.

    No, Wren, your example of medical school is not the task-oriented training traditionally given to peasants.

    Sorry if you found my BRIEF summary of the long-standing debate over the value of liberal arts education to be confusing. No doubt you can read longer explanations elsewhere which may provide the clarity you seek.

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    Originally Posted by cricket3, 2 posts
    ... medical school applicants who majored in humanities ... are much in demand, and have been for years. None of these things are mutually exclusive, though the study of diverse and less directly profitable subjects may be increasingly difficult for the typical student to pursue in today’s economy... knowing a few surgeons ... seem to suffer from a deficit in humanities education.
    Agreed! smile This brings to mind a series of about 6 old posts, beginning here... also, I think, some wisdom here, for life-long learners:
    Originally Posted by Wren, 2 posts
    DH was a physician. But was so interested in history. He read 2 texts per week on some topic he was into... You can get into any topic, but being a physician made the money. I have read so many European classics in literature, maybe more than more literature majors. Yet I took engineering and ended on Wall st. Didn't stop me from reading 7000 pages of Proust. I think you can cover a lot of the humanities on your own when gifted... focus on what gives you a job.

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    I just want to say that this was 40 years ago.

    I just looked up the stats for 2019. And these are the breakdown of the 21000 approx that got into medical school.

    The most common majors were:

    Biological sciences—11,843 total matriculants.
    Physical sciences—2,214.
    Social sciences—2,107.
    Humanities—797.
    Specialized health sciences—650.
    Math and statistics—168.

    My view is that what I did will not work in 2021. It is a very different world for my kid. Like old haematologists were the first oncologists. Now oncologists are totally specialized. It is a very different world. Canada still doesn't recognize MDs from anywhere in the world except the US. My husband looked into it when we first thought to move to Canada. If you went to school in the US, trained in the US, and practiced in the US, you could automatically get a medical license in Canada. No other medical training is recognized without some further training in Canada.

    My view. I also think that you can indulge yourself into classics outside of school. Dante's divine comedy is available for anyone who wants to read it. But sciences have gotten way more intense. My father had a slide ruler in engineering.

    Our discussion here is about getting the best options for our kids. And best options are changing. Our guidance counsellor said that you don't need APs for Harvard. Some get in without. Yet, this alumni who interviews says that the Harvard entrant now has an average of 8 AP courses. Without SAT, it becomes way more important.

    People used to apply to a handful of medical schools. Now they apply to 30 due to the competition.

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    And this doesn't address engineers. They don't have a choice in what they take, since this is a bachelor degree. Though I did have an elective my first year.

    And as for jack of all trades and soft skills, in the era of online job hunting and AI type scanning of resumes, how is that going to get you a job? I am not trying to be difficult, I just view the current landscape and make my assessment.

    Not what we did, but how do our kids navigate this world.

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    And do you know the breakdown of majors 40 years ago? I don’t.... but I still argue that being roundly educated makes one more valuable. I didn’t say it’s easy- yes competition is fierce. If you don’t major in science, you need to be able to show without a doubt that you could have and absolutely excel in those classes. But I guess that’s my point- those are the students I want taking care of my mom. And designing AI, for that matter. Our kids both strongly preferred colleges that had a required core or general Ed requirements, because the said they didn’t want to be surrounded by kids who were narrowly focused on one thing. But that is clearly a luxury only certain students can afford (both literally and educationally, as you point out).

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    I am, on this topic as on many, ambivalent. I work in a very specialist career-oriented educational institution which sends many learners on to technical institutes rather than liberal arts colleges (although some to the latter as well), and see the benefits of this type of education highlighed daily. But I also came to my present through a rather circuitous path that traversed liberal arts, STEM, generalist and specialist education.

    And although there are many technical specialists in my extended family, there have also been a handful of classicists (some of even more ancient cultures than Greece or Rome).

    It seems to me that there are two different goals here regarding liberal arts education versus specialist education: career preparation and educating citizens. On the former, I suspect that what is most effective for obtaining satisfying work that supports one's material needs is constantly changing, but should be open at least somewhat to objective study (i.e., there is probably relevant data out there). On the latter--well, that depends on how we define an educated citizen. If liberal arts education generates mature adults who are able to think objectively and rationally about their own and other's ideas and actions, to take alternate perspectives, to disagree without being disagreeable, and otherwise to engage in civil discourse, then I am onboard. Is the study of the Greek and Roman classics necessary or sufficient for this? That is another question. Are our current liberal arts institutions succeeding in this task? That is yet another question.

    And in one of the curious shifts that do occur, I seem to recall that PhD (Doctor of Philosophy) used to refer to someone whose breadth of knowledge and understanding crossed multiple fields in humanities and sciences--a lover of all kinds of knowledge, and usually a teacher. Yet now it almost always is applied to someone who has gone deep into extremely specialized study.


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    aeh makes an excellent point about the importance of defining what constitutes "an educated citizen".

    As a secondary consideration, we then also have to overlay the lens of rewards to the individual vs rewards to society, if we want to create an accurate benefit-cost understanding. After all, *who* pays and *who* benefits is material in the calculus. I'll lay that aside for now, though.

    I have my own views on this. I quite like aeh's working definition, so I'm quoting it below, but feel free to throw in whatever amendments you like. Part of the challenge in this discussion lies in the fact that we are inferring skills from credentials, which may not be valid. What I like about aeh's definition is that it speaks to behaviours, which arise from skills.

    Originally Posted by aeh
    mature adults who are able to think objectively and rationally about their own and other's ideas and actions, to take alternate perspectives, to disagree without being disagreeable, and otherwise to engage in civil discourse

    My questions for the group, if people are interested, would be:

    1/ What share of liberal arts university grads actually meet these criteria? That would speak to the effectiveness of the current system of general PSE education.

    2/ To what extent are these skills currently fostered in publicly-funded K-12 education? PISA scores give us some clue as to current PSE readiness, if we want to use that as a proxy for potential for adult level mastery, blunt measure that it is.

    3/ How could programming be amended in K-12 to enhance student acquisition of these skills?

    My thoughts:

    Full disclosure: I'm not a fan of the catch-all "educated citizen" concept - it's too amorphous to measure and enact. Really, effective thinking and citizenship distills into a constellation of presumably teachable skills. Otherwise, we're aiming at ether.

    We can think of "educated citizenry" as existing on a continuum. K-12 education allows the student to achieve X% of the target adult score. There's probably some minimally sufficient level of education that enables citizens to participate meaningfully in society, make informed decisions as voters that supports the well-being of the collective, and engage socially and commercially in a way that is beneficial to the individual and collective. As a society (I'm lumping together traditional ed across countries here), we've decided this is high school. But the proxy is a credential, rather than a verifiable set of discrete skills.

    Moreover, it seems plausible that socially optimal outcomes only require a certain Y% of the population to achieve adult proficiency. My view is we can get much of the way to adult proficiency for the majority of the population by the end of HS with deliberate curriculum design and *explicit* instruction in logic, critical thinking, and discourse.



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    I'll answer my own questions separately.

    Quote
    1/ What share of liberal arts university grads actually meet these criteria? That would speak to the effectiveness of the current system of general PSE education.

    From personal experience, at the undergraduate level, less than one quarter. At the graduate level, a ceiling of half.

    Quote
    2/ To what extent are these skills currently fostered in publicly-funded K-12 education? PISA scores give us some clue as to current PSE readiness, if we want to use that as a proxy for potential for adult level mastery, blunt measure that it is.

    If we're using PISA level 5 and 6 standards, the answer is "not very well". The world's top scoring countries are only achieving level 4 scores, and most high-income countries' scores are in the level 3 range.

    See the 2018 PISA scores for yourselves (summary):
    https://www.oecd.org/pisa/PISA-results_ENGLISH.png

    PISA levels definitions:
    https://www.oecd.org/pisa/aboutpisa/PISA%20scales%20for%20pisa-based%20test%20for%20schools.pdf

    Mid-length 2018 PISA interpretation report - see pp.5-8 for country-specific scores on levels:
    https://www.oecd.org/pisa/PISA%202018%20Insights%20and%20Interpretations%20FINAL%20PDF.pdf

    Full 2018 PISA score interpretation guide:
    https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites...80670e&itemIGO=oecd&itemContentType=book

    Quote
    3/ How could programming be amended in K-12 to enhance student acquisition of these skills?

    Explicit, evidence-based instruction in logic, rhetoric, and critical analysis of information throughout K-12. I'd also like to see more extensive instruction in statistics and data analysis be made mandatory throughout high school.

    Obviously the former relies on sound literacy teaching in the early years. And this latter piece would stand on the shoulders of stronger basic math instruction, which I've spoken about at length in other posts (e.g. Singapore methods, math specialist teachers, additional supports and tutoring for students falling behind, and acceleration opportunities for students capable of more.)

    Other posters will, I'm sure, have more information about specific programming options, which I'm eager to learn about.


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    Morning Joe, again. This time they had the critic and the president of Howard U. He said you can still take the courses, not cancelling the courses, but want to provide a more progressive education. It is interesting because classics is about western civilization and they said that is limiting, now that we know so much more about other cultures. Narrow focus.

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