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    #247306 - 07/08/20 02:14 PM Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out?
    Anisotropic Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 12/09/18
    Posts: 20
    Hi.
    I posted here last year about some unusual test scores and the difficulty I was having with interpreting them. A lot of things have happened since then and I feel like I may need some more advice.
    College admissions turned out to be a disaster. I think I've got a pretty good idea of what went wrong, but I've not been able to stop beating myself up over the results. Clearly they indicate either that I'm unintelligent or that I'm intelligent but will never be given the chance to prove it.
    I applied to a total of nine universities: Brown, Caltech, Harvey Mudd, NYU, UChicago, UW, MIT, UCLA, and UC Berkeley. I was accepted to only three: UW, NYU, and UCLA.
    I think my error was failing to appear human. I had very few ECs and only a handful of volunteer hours. I wrote my essays about my passion for math and desire to share the beauty of math with others by becoming a professor. Although at the time of my last post I had planned to go into physics, my interest has since shifted towards applied math (since math has applications both in physics and elsewhere).
    This is just the latest installment in a dreadfully long personal history of failure. I was never recognized as gifted because the district didn't look at individual IQ results. I applied to the Robinson Center's UW Academy program for early college only to be rejected once again. I had a 36 on the ACT and the highest score from any student accepted that year was a 35. My physics teacher even wrote in his letter of recommendation about going over quantum mechanics with me and that he "[had] a master's degree in physics and [had] nothing more to teach [me]." I applied to three summer programs after my junior year - RSI, SSP Astrophysics, and PROMYS. I was rejected from the first two and waitlisted at the last. Eventually they took me off the waitlist and accepted me into the program. I attended and enjoyed it greatly, but I still feel it would've been better to get some additional research experience than to just learn more number theory, modern algebra, and combinatorics.
    One thing I did enjoy about the last year was discovering the option to take classes as a non-matriculated student at UW. In addition to PDEs, I also took courses in fluid dynamics, stochastic modeling, Chinese linguistics, thermodynamics, advanced stochastic processes, optimization theory/convex analysis, and dynamical systems. The way I approached the work wasn't very healthy though. I'd take notes but never study them, and I'd wait until the day before homework was due to work on it and then grind out page after page of LaTeX into the early hours of the morning. This worked for me until very recently - I didn't receive any grades below 4.0.
    It eventually became quite galling to compare my results in these classes to college results. There were graduate students in my fluid dynamics class, for example, who'd gone to Caltech, MIT, and numerous other top undergrad schools. Yet I'd always receive the highest test scores in the class by a significant margin. The average on the final was 77.6% and I scored 100%. Taking twice as many credits as the threshold for full-time enrollment status didn't push me.
    There was also a problem connecting with the other students. In many of these classes the majority were working on their PhDs and 7 or more years older than me. That's a huge gap in life experience. And especially difficult to bridge for a student who's only on campus for a small fraction of the day.
    Caltech hurt the most. My fluid dynamics professor had gone there for his undergrad and master's degrees and strongly recommended the school to me. He wrote my recommendation. It seemed he was happy that it would be such a good fit. Then they didn't take me.
    I tried to kill myself the day I received the news. Emptied a bottle of antidepressants. That put me in the hospital for a few days.
    Since then I don't think I've been dealing effectively with anything. I took my final exam for dynamical systems shortly after that and managed again to obtain the highest score in the class, but I'm now worried that I may have damaged my brain to the point of not being able to do math anymore. I resorted to using quite a few substances (alcohol, cannabis, DXM, DMT, salvia, kratom, LSA, nitrous oxide, and solvents) as a form of escapism. My parents found me on a couple of occasions passed out with a bottle - once covered in vomit. DXM put me in the hospital again (accidentally this time) when I took over a gram and went into acute urinary retention. The only one I'm still using at this point is kratom, which I started as a form of self-medication. I kept feeling this persistent ache in my chest that kratom helped to numb. I've just gotten a prescription for antidepressants that I hope to replace it with. There are some things I'm even less proud of doing and don't care to share.
    With all these disruptions, I was unfortunately unable to register for classes at UW for Spring quarter. I'm disappointed since I particularly wanted to do one pure math course in analysis on manifolds, but I'm probably not smart enough anymore to understand it.
    I'd begun work on a very interesting research project (modeling optimal proliferation of Chlamydia with tools from stochastic control - especially interesting since it drew on some of the material I'd learned in molecular bio) with one of my professors last year but stopped sending my progress on it after I received college results. There's probably no opportunity to resume.
    I stopped working on my classwork too. I never finished optimization or advanced stochastic processes. I took incompletes in the classes but couldn't bring myself to slave away for such a travesty of a future. Now I've failed both.
    Being chosen as a Semifinalist for US Presidential Scholar helped to boost my self-esteem temporarily but the inevitable elimination in the final round only reminded me that I'll never achieve anything worthwhile.
    There's one person I've met who actually seems to understand me. I have a rather close relationship with her, which I might like to make closer, but it's probably impossible. And that hurts me more than anything else. I've joined the Triple Nine Society in hopes of finding somebody else to talk to but I doubt that'll work.
    I've also been wondering if I had an even cognitive profile all along but ASD masked it. I know that a lot of the hobbyist "high-range" tests are extremely inaccurate, but I've taken a few for fun and almost always managed to get either the highest or second highest score (not mattering whether they were verbal or spatial). The theoretical scores I've gotten on these are usually around 170 - likely inflated in almost every case but suggesting at least that my verbal and nonverbal abilities aren't too far apart. As far as CPI goes, I've taken both the auditory digit span test at https://timodenk.com/blog/digit-span-test-online-tool/ (12 forward, 10 reverse, 10 sequenced on first attempt) and the symbol search and digit-symbol substitution tasks on https://www.millisecond.com/ (78 raw SS, 141 raw substitution).
    I don't want to go to college at 18. It's a sick joke. I taught myself calculus when I was 12 and scored a 2380 on a practice SAT in 8th grade. If only I'd signed up to take it officially through a talent search, perhaps I'd be better off now. But I can just picture the school telling me I'm too stupid for that.
    What do I do now? I'm trying out a new therapist - my last didn't really work that well. Do I go to university? Do I try to salvage my chance with UCLA? Do I go to community college? 90% of me just wants to turn my back on academia forever and never look back.
    _________________________
    "The thing that doesn't fit is the most interesting."
    -Richard Feynman

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    #247307 - 07/08/20 04:24 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3795
    Nice to hear from you again, but sorry it's in response to some disappointments you've experienced.

    You raise a lot of questions, which I'll try to respond to, not necessarily in order of presentation or importance (apologies in advance for any I might miss or answer incompletely).

    On a practical level, I think looking for a better therapist match is an excellent idea, and likely one of the most critical actions you can engage in it at this moment in your life.

    With regard to what you do next regarding school, you have many options, most of which maintain pathways to your future goals. You have acceptances to three highly-regarded major research universities (from what I understand), and goals that will probably require graduate studies. Attending one of these universities for your bachelor's degree would be as good of preparation for acceptance into a top-tier graduate program as you make it. You could also apply for transfer into a desired university some time before you have completed sophomore year-level credits. IOW, you don't need to be in an elite university this fall (especially as a member of the class of 2024, where most of the schools you listed--including the ones to which you were not accepted--have already decided that they will be predominantly or entirely online this coming school year), in order to achieve your goals.

    I understand that one of your particular concerns is that even university will be insufficiently challenging academically. That would be a conversation to have (respectfully, of course) with your college advisor, including discussions regarding the level of, and how well you were performing in, your research and coursework prior to (and even after) a mental health crisis. It may be possible to explore connecting with a faculty member in the mathematics or applied mathematics departments to request an override into higher levels of math coursework than typically expected for freshman, perhaps supported by letters of reference from your past professors, or sample work from courses you have taken either for credit or even incompletely. They may be able to offer you placement testing, or course credit or placement by testing out. You may feel that the rupture in your educational path that occurred this spring (which you attribute to your reaction to admissions decisions) negates your other accomplishments in the eyes of others. Please remember that nearly every student on the planet experienced massive disruptions to their education this spring, so faculty members and university programs are likely to be somewhat more open to extenuating circumstances this admissions season.

    With regard to your native and current cognitive ability, I would reassure you first, not to jump to conclusions that you have injured your capacity with your recent substance use. At the same time, I obviously cannot understate the risk to yourself and others involved in misuse of psychoactive substances. Further, please make sure your prescriber is fully aware of any other psychoactives (and preferably discontinue their use) prior to starting your antidepressants, as the risk of drug interactions is not one you want to run. As to your level of cognitive function, we have previously discussed the possibility of increases in formal IQ scores in persons with ASD, due to increasing testability. Certainly, that is a distinct possibility in your case. We have also discussed the greater value in actual performance than in predicted performance; your level of academic achievement clearly exceeds your predicted achievement based on very early (and likely low confidence) formal cognitive assessments. This is probably not worth additional anxiety.

    Finally, circling back to an earlier thought, you may wish to consider where you will have the best support system (i.e., at UCLA, at UW, at NYU, in a CC, exploring your own interests while holding a job to meet basic life functions, focusing on your mental health, etc.) for optimal function in all aspects of your humanity. I don't know what supports you would have available to you in each of the options you have, of course; I would strongly encourage you to make assessing that part of your decision-making process.

    Courage.
    _________________________
    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...

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    #247308 - 07/08/20 04:29 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    Eagle Mum Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/24/20
    Posts: 91
    Loc: Australia
    Clearly, you do have talent in your chosen fields of study. However talented the majority of us are, there’ll usually be someone more talented (often they’ll have had more opportunities or advantages too). I was quite talented in maths too, but after meeting Terry Tao as a child prodigy and also missing out on the Olympiad team (like you, I didn’t have any help, whereas most of the others had various advantages), I did give up on my dream of a maths related career. Whilst my profession wasn’t what I would have chosen, through discipline & hard work, I’ve still been able to carve quite a successful & rewarding career out of it.

    DH had an even greater struggle through high school & Uni, with little to no parental support and worked at many jobs whilst he studied. He has very much earned his professional & academic success.

    From your detailed post, you have already gained a lot of useful knowledge and skills in applied maths related fields. I can see some very useful applications for such skills - for example in vaccine development, where the understanding of both topological maths as well as molecular biology would be extremely useful for the absolute accuracy required to target a specific immunological response. There is a wealth of opportunities for someone with your emerging set of skills, but rarely does opportunity just knock on one’s door so you do have to proactively seek opportunities in fields which interest you.

    As you are already well aware, recreational substance use will do nothing to help you reach your goals. The benefits & adverse effects of cannabis are widely debated, but there’s no doubt that it can trigger permanent changes in some individuals, although genetic susceptibility is currently poorly understood. Less well appreciated but very well understood is the effect of nitrous oxide on the cobalt oxidation state in cobalamin which results in Vit B12 functional deficiency, which can insidiously cause neurological damage. At this stage, I suspect most of the effects of these substances would be short lived, but I strongly urge you to discontinue these practices.

    The world is ever changing. Whilst Big Business has unfortunately dictated how much of and how the world economy is spent on R & D, the Internet enables new ways of learning & collaboration and technology such as 3D printing enables quick prototype construction & proof of concept development. It’s up to you how to navigate this to achieve your goals.


    Edited by Eagle Mum (07/09/20 05:38 AM)

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    #247309 - 07/08/20 08:40 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    Anisotropic Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 12/09/18
    Posts: 20
    I just don't know.
    I don't think I'll realistically be able to try in a college environment now. It's clear to me that I'm immensely inferior to everybody else who'll be trying to get research appointments, or into grad school, or eventually tenure.
    It's clear that I've somehow managed to compensate for a lack of real ability with dumb luck and occasional strategy but that I was finally exposed for a fraud.
    Though I know it's stupid, part of me wants to spite the system as well. I know I harm only myself by not doing what I want to do. But I just feel like a marionette dancing a twisted jig for gatekeeper after gatekeeper, and my performances are never good enough.
    And the only person I can talk to who understands is so far away.
    We can't change the past. We can only choose how to act for the future. But I'd rather invest no effort than full effort if all full effort ever gets me is 20000th place.
    I am also unsure whether it will actually be possible for me to continue on to college. I had planned to finish two of my graduation requirements for high school in the last two quarters by taking an online positive psychology course and a DE English class at CC. I completed most of the work for English, requested an incomplete for the same reason as in the math classes, and then never submitted my final paper. I haven't checked my grade but it's certain I failed. I haven't even started the psychology class.
    I was sent a diploma with the expectation that I'd order a transcript from CC shortly to document completion of requirements. I'm sure that diploma will be revoked.
    _________________________
    "The thing that doesn't fit is the most interesting."
    -Richard Feynman

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    #247310 - 07/08/20 09:15 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    MumOfThree Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/11
    Posts: 1678
    Loc: Australia
    I feel that you have received two replies far more useful than I can give you, but I wanted to respond because you are so clearly suffering so much at the moment and it is a wonderful thing that you are reaching out.

    It's incredibly difficult to feel so out of step with the world, so out of place. The advice I give my children, and tell myself when worrying about my children, is that primary school is the worst thing, high school is better, upper highschool is better again. University is better, work is better again. The further you travel through your education and into work, the more you will be with people more like yourself: with similar interests, who actually chose to be here doing this thing. This was true for my husband and I, it has been true for my eldest child (so far), who now supports this sentiment when talking with siblings.

    The more different you are, the longer it may be before you find a place/people that is really comfortable. But do not underestimate what a jump it can be just to get out of school and to university, even if it is not the one you had hoped for.

    It is incredibly frustrating to feel held back, that you are not being challenged. Starting school can be especially awful for highly gifted children who can't understand why they are so out of step and why they hate school so much. Now that you are older you have more executive function to bring to bear on the situation, you can make your own choices about what to persist with : because it's the path to your personal goals. It is easier for you now as a young adult than as a small child to be aware of your frustration and make active choices to do what must be done for now, while working on getting more advanced options as AEH has suggested you do, always looking forward, one way or another, to real challenges that can only be reached by building a pathway. I am not saying it will be actually easy, but only that you can at least now understand what is happening to you and bring your considerable intellect to bear on your own situation, thus making choices about how to best reach outcomes you can live with, via a process you are willing to put yourself through.

    I guess as a completely out there idea, which may be very difficult to achieve in COVID times, you could also consider applying to overseas schools who consider only academic achievement for entry. I am not in the US and I find your college entry system extremely worrying, I am glad my children will not be faced with an arms race of proving their desirability to universities on so many levels.

    People complain here that it's so unfair that entry is all about your marks and that is too much pressure for high school students, that unis should consider "the whole student". But I look at what US kids need to do to get into competitive courses or institutions and it is SO much worse because all of a sudden "the whole child" is a zero sum game too, not just their academics... My university age child finished highschool, got their final highschool score (and had studied the appropriate pre-requisite subjects at school) and was accepted accordingly to the course of choice at the university of choice. If they had not gotten a high enough mark, they would not have gotten in, it's as simple as that. No letters about why they wanted to go to that uni, no letters of recommendation from teachers, no extra curricular activities, no charity work that looks good on a resume... They did in fact have multiple extra curricular activities and had done some charity work, but the Uni don't know anything about them other than high school grades, and they don't care.

    It's true that socio-economically advantaged children have far more supports in place and so have more chance of the highest marks. But at least there is not the same degree of overt social engineering that US institutions seem to partake in by "curating" their intakes. The more university require things other than academic credentials for entry the harder it is for those with less opportunity to both study and do ECs, charity, start a business and generally promote their "whole person" as worthy of attendance.


    Edited by MumOfThree (07/08/20 09:24 PM)

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    #247311 - 07/08/20 09:38 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    Anisotropic Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 12/09/18
    Posts: 20
    The objectivity you mention is exactly why I had considered applying to Cambridge. Ultimately I figured with my application portfolio I would get into at least one American college I wanted to attend (a miscalculation for sure) and that therefore it wouldn't be worth the hassle to apply as an international student and have to acclimatize to another country.
    If I do decide to take a gap year and don't (or can't) defer enrollment at UCLA, that would likely be where I'd look first.
    Our system seems disgraceful to me because it encourages students not to be true to themselves. I doubt most people that age are truly passionate about many of the extracurriculars necessary to cultivate a favorable persona. I did what I did and didn't do what I didn't do out of a genuine passion for learning about math. I figured that if I did well (even if I did well in my own way at my own thing) admission would follow.
    But instead there's a mold I have to conform to.
    _________________________
    "The thing that doesn't fit is the most interesting."
    -Richard Feynman

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    #247312 - 07/09/20 07:37 AM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3795
    Anisotropic, I took the liberty of exploring the UCLA website a bit, and I think it would make a lot of sense for you to contact their first-year offices (call in for a conversation with a real person, not just their email contact form) and have a conversation. I saw evidence that they would be willing to consider extenuating circumstances with regard to the courses you did not finish this past school year, and that they can work with you on solutions.

    Also, they appear to be planning on mainly online and hybrid classes for the fall, which means there is a good chance you could have a somewhat more flexible college environment.

    And as to some of your perceptions about where you rank intellectually, I would point you to the research on imposter syndrome, with findings that a surprisingly high number of high achieving persons believe (inaccurately) that they are not as qualified for their roles as their peers are, and that "if people only knew," they would be exposed as frauds. Here's a readable and practical lay article on this published recently in Science (AAAS), and written with a target audience of practicing scientists:
    https://www.sciencemag.org/careers/2020/07/how-banish-impostor-syndrome

    In the small sample of your accomplishments that you have referenced in your communications with us, it is apparent that there are objective, external data that support your high mathematical ability, which is why I maintain that this should not be a concern. It may be, though, that some of the markers you rely on for external validation of your ability are weaker in sensitivity or specificity, or have confounds (e.g., admission to a specific post-secondary institution), but have outsize impact on your perceptions. These are conversations that it might benefit you to have with your therapist, regarding interal and external sources of validation, relative weighting of different data, and developing resilience for unexpected outcomes.

    You have a tremendous amount of potential (based on what you have already accomplished, especially in the face of obstacles), and many possible paths to a fulfilling life of intellectual and relational satisfaction. Whether you enroll in UCLA this fall, or take a gap year, I would encourage you to continue challenging yourself not only intellectually, but also in your understanding of yourself and others.

    Best.
    _________________________
    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...

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    #247313 - 07/09/20 01:21 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    Wren Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1644
    At your age I had a great doctor who told me that I needed a therapist who was at least smart enough that I couldn't lie to. I think you need the same thing. Not that I think you are consciously lying. Your brain is very good at managing the excuses. You have some good educational options. For some reasons, you didn't get Caltech. Figure out how to make your life work and the education and career will fall into line. Maybe you will get your PhD in math (and if you like stochastics) you will work on Wall st and make billions. Or apply it and make warp engines. Good luck.


    Edited by Wren (07/09/20 01:22 PM)

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    #247314 - 07/09/20 04:54 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    pinewood1 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 01/25/19
    Posts: 41
    Hi Anisotropic.

    I think you've been sold a narrative that may have been somewhat true in your parents' or grandparents' day, but it isn't true now and hasn't been at least since I was applying to colleges.

    No one is guaranteed a spot at a big-name university. It doesn't matter if you have the writing talent of Shakespeare, the mathematical talent of Gauss, and the musical talent of Mozart all rolled into one. It's a lottery. It says nothing about you that you were rejected from the places you wanted to go.

    I hope you can take a step back from the emotions that are overwhelming you, and realize you aren't alone.

    I'm also a PG person who hit a bad mental health wall and was no longer able to achieve (in my case, my senior year of college). I seriously considered suicide. I had to do a lot of grief work around this - mourn the narrative I was sold that some Amazing Future was due me just because of my intellect, mourn the dreams I'd had of becoming an academic (which is also a lottery now, and no one is guaranteed it), mourn who I was told I was - while working in an exploitative CS job after graduating by the skin of my teeth.

    The narrative that's spun about PG people is a mirage, a castle in the air. We're supposed to be The Future (tm) and Achieve Great Things (tm) - not be regular people with regular pesky human emotions and needs.

    It's better on earth. And you can still achieve things that make you proud after hitting the wall. I promise. "There'll be new dreams, there'll be better dreams, and plenty, before the last revolving year is through." -Joni Mitchell

    If you'd like to talk to me privately, either here or on another platform, I'd be happy to talk to you.

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    #247315 - 07/09/20 05:25 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: pinewood1]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3795
    If I have never said it to you before, pinewood, I have to tell you now how extraordinarily impressed I am by how you have transformed the very challenging hand you were dealt early in life into strength and compassion as an adult, fully worthy of your promise as a PG child.
    _________________________
    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...

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    #247316 - 07/09/20 05:48 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    Eagle Mum Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/24/20
    Posts: 91
    Loc: Australia
    It is a discouraging reality that education and the workforce are often highly competitive environments and uneven ‘playing fields’, where some will have advantages through contacts, socioeconomic advantage or simply being in the right place at the right time.

    I encourage you, however, to continue to apply determined efforts, not necessarily to compete with others, but to gain knowledge, skills and experience, to discover and realise your own potential. Improving oneself is seldom if ever a waste of effort.

    It has been my experience that it is very frustrating trying to control external factors, but highly rewarding to work and strive within my own personal capacity. This approach has brought the most success when opportunities arise.

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    #247318 - 07/09/20 05:55 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4474
    Originally Posted By: Anisotropic
    College admissions turned out to be a disaster... I applied to a total of nine universities: Brown, Caltech, Harvey Mudd, NYU, UChicago, UW, MIT, UCLA, and UC Berkeley. I was accepted to only three: UW, NYU, and UCLA. ...This is just the latest installment in a dreadfully long personal history of failure.
    This is *NOT* a disaster! This is *NOT* a personal failure.
    You may have unrealistic expectations...?
    Originally Posted By: Anisotropic
    Caltech hurt the most. My fluid dynamics professor had gone there for his undergrad and master's degrees and strongly recommended the school to me. He wrote my recommendation. It seemed he was happy that it would be such a good fit. Then they didn't take me.
    *Most* applicants are not accepted. You are in good company. You still have the support of your professor, and his vote of confidence in writing your letter of recommendation. Please do *NOT* dismiss the strong positives... be grateful for demonstrated support and encouragement.
    Originally Posted By: Anisotropic
    Being chosen as a Semifinalist for US Presidential Scholar helped to boost my self-esteem temporarily but the inevitable elimination in the final round only reminded me that I'll never achieve anything worthwhile...
    Again, *most* are eliminated and do not earn the title. You are in good company.
    Originally Posted By: Anisotropic
    I don't want to go to college at 18. It's a sick joke.
    Being accepted at UW, NYU, and UCLA... and beginning as a matriculated student at age 18... are *NOT* negatives. You might want to consider re-evaluating the fine opportunities before you, and concentrate on how to optimize them and make them work. This will engage your intellect and will include owning past mistakes and learning from them, so you can make better decisions as you mature... rather than focusing on the past and languishing in regret. Consider the value of enjoying validation, affirmation, and challenge as they come, rather than needing a "win" to boost your self-esteem. For example, you mentioned volunteerism... you may find that type of service to your fellow man and your community is insightful and rewarding ("giving" of your time and talent/ability rather than "receiving" acknowledgement of your talent/ability). You might also enjoy challenging yourself to take note of something you appreciate, are happy about, or grateful for, every day. Photography, especially cell-phone photography, can be helpful: an inspiring sunrise, interesting cloud formation, delicious meal, beautiful flower, gentle firefly, shade of a tree on a hot day... myriad simple joys not to be overlooked.

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    #247322 - 07/10/20 01:04 AM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Wren]
    MumOfThree Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/11
    Posts: 1678
    Loc: Australia
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    At your age I had a great doctor who told me that I needed a therapist who was at least smart enough that I couldn't lie to.


    Someone very dear to me said to me, many years ago, that he believed any therapist must be either smarter than you, or think so completely differently to you that you can't get past them. This has always stuck with me, and is very inline with the advice Wren has given and passed on to you. Perhaps "...or thinks completely differently to you" is a useful caveat for someone as gifted as yourself.

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    #247324 - 07/10/20 08:55 AM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    pinewood1 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 01/25/19
    Posts: 41
    I have a lot more thoughts on this, which will probably not be that well organized.

    On finding a therapist: unfortunately, I haven't had a lot of luck with this. Most therapists aren't very good, and the more statistically unusual you are (and the more ways you are statistically unusual), the less likely you will be to find a therapist who is culturally competent, so to speak, to treat you.

    You're going to have to kiss a lot of frogs, unfortunately. Maybe the best you can find will be a frog with a crown who can sort of look like a prince if you squint at him right. I find it useful to keep in mind that a therapist is someone you're hiring as a consultant to help you figure out how to run your brain better, and their job is to eventually make themselves obsolete; the responsibility ultimately rests with you, and the more you learn and figure out on your own about your psychology, the easier the process will be.

    (Ahem, unless your therapist's ego is threatened by you learning about their field. Psychology/psychotherapy is one of my passions, and I've read a lot more books and articles about it than most therapists have. Most of them do not like that.)

    On "coming in 20000th place": if you're coming in 20000th place in the entire world, that's nothing to be ashamed of. Coming from the assumption that you can rank people linearly, the chance is 1 out of 7 billion+ that you're the best in the world at whatever you strive to do. Not very good odds.

    (And I think linear ranking is an oversimplification. Was Einstein the greatest physicist who ever lived? According to what scale? Who was the greatest artist that ever lived - is that even a meaningful question? Everyone is unique, and has their own unique contribution to make that no one else can make.)

    On challenge in classwork: unfortunately, as you've found, classwork likely isn't ever going to fall in your zone of proximal development and stay that way. That doesn't mean it's worthless; it just means you need to have realistic expectations of what it can be for you. Classwork is there to get you to master a set of skills or concepts; you will pretty much always be faster at that than the pace of the course.

    The value I think classwork has is as a social pressure to do exercises on material instead of putting it off, and as an exposure to the larger conversation about and terminology of a field, and as a way to get to know people who are interested in the field. Some classes also have assignments whose ceiling you can raise yourself (unfortunately, math problem sets are not usually in that category). If you approach a class as like... a garment that comes out of the box in a standardized shape and size, but that you can tailor, dye, embroider, etc., to get as much enjoyment out of it as possible, that's a much more realistic attitude to have than expecting that the class will be automatically tailored to you. It won't.

    On having to jump through a lot of meaningless hoops: yeah, that's how the world is. I think most autistic people resent this on some level for their entire lives, but eventually learn to come to terms with it. I think that's one of the developmental tasks of autistic young adulthood.

    I think some perspective-taking helps with this. You want to make a contribution - great! But every single person who has been recognized as making a contribution, whose work didn't end up moldering in an attic unappreciated, was able to communicate that contribution to others who did not think exactly like them (or else their contribution was discovered by the wider community after their death and they were only appreciated posthumously, which I don't think is what you want). It's like how Saussure said that no one person can change a language singlehandedly - because for a change to be part of the language as spoken by a community, it has to be adopted by the community.

    Learning to sell your contributions is a skillset you're going to need to learn. Even if you get a tenure-track job, you're going to have to apply for funding, write papers that reviewers will want to publish, and convince your peers of the value of your work. Not to mention teaching.

    Finally, the question that's been weighing on my mind above all others: where were your parents in all of this? Are they actually in your corner, or are they neglectful and apathetic, or overly pressuring, or opposed to your goals? Because I think that whether you take a gap year at home, or whether it's very important to try to push yourself out of the nest, depends on the answer to that question.

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    #247326 - 07/10/20 09:42 AM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: pinewood1]
    Wren Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1644
    Originally Posted By: pinewood1
    On finding a therapist: unfortunately, I haven't had a lot of luck with this. Most therapists aren't very good, and the more statistically unusual you are (and the more ways you are statistically unusual), the less likely you will be to find a therapist who is culturally competent, so to speak, to treat you.

    It's like how Saussure said that no one person can change a language singlehandedly - because for a change to be part of the language as spoken by a community, it has to be adopted by the community.

    Learning to sell your contributions is a skillset you're going to need to learn. Even if you get a tenure-track job, you're going to have to apply for funding, write papers that reviewers will want to publish, and convince your peers of the value of your work. Not to mention teaching.



    I was lucky, my doctor back then knew someone. He was tough with me. And bringing up the fiction of a movie, Good Will Hunting is not far off the mark. I don't know how you go about finding a good therapist. Too bad there wasn't a spreadsheet with IQs. Why don't you try a university, find a professor who works with highly gifted. Even if they don't, they may be able to refer you.

    Pinewood brings up the skill sets needed to survive. Better not to learn this the hard way. You will lose a lot of jobs, no matter how brilliant you are. Though kind of conflict of terms, brilliant, yet difficulty in learning...life skill sets. Not uncommon.

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    #247338 - 07/13/20 06:21 AM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    Anisotropic Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 12/09/18
    Posts: 20
    I've decided that it should've been clear from the start that since I did poorly on the CogAT and on the nonverbal portion of the WISC (even considering the other NV score) and was never identified, the preponderance of evidence suggests that I'm simply not intelligent enough to make it. This is a reality check. Colleges recognized what I was too stupid and arrogant to see myself.
    Impostor syndrome can't apply if one has no real achievements to doubt. What I doubt is my ability to succeed, and real evidence for its existence is lacking.
    I confirmed that I also received an F in English. I needed that class to graduate. Though I was given a diploma, there was an expectation I'd pass it and send the transcript from the CC where I was taking it to my HS shortly thereafter. I've just sent that transcript.
    I'm not going to graduate this year. And I don't think it's worth it to try again. So I'll be dropping out. I'd like to say I've enjoyed my time in school but that would be a lie. I have always loved learning and hated school from the bottom of my heart.
    _________________________
    "The thing that doesn't fit is the most interesting."
    -Richard Feynman

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    #247339 - 07/13/20 07:57 AM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    pinewood1 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 01/25/19
    Posts: 41
    Oh, love. I recognize your thought patterns well.

    We'll all be here if you need to talk more. My PMs are always open.

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    #247341 - 07/13/20 08:21 AM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3795
    When it's hard to believe in yourself, please lean on those who do.
    _________________________
    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...

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    #247342 - 07/13/20 12:47 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Eagle Mum]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4474
    Originally Posted By: Eagle Mum
    It is a discouraging reality that education and the workforce are often highly competitive environments and uneven ‘playing fields’, where some will have advantages through contacts, socioeconomic advantage or simply being in the right place at the right time.

    I encourage you, however, to continue to apply determined efforts, not necessarily to compete with others, but to gain knowledge, skills and experience, to discover and realise your own potential. Improving oneself is seldom if ever a waste of effort.

    It has been my experience that it is very frustrating trying to control external factors, but highly rewarding to work and strive within my own personal capacity. This approach has brought the most success when opportunities arise.
    Excellent advice from Eagle Mum, and well worth reading again at this point in the conversation!

    Dear Anisotropic,
    You are in good company: There are MANY who love to learn and do not like school. The learning environment may not be a good "fit." Rather than bemoaning that you did not fit any particular school (and internalize this as a personal shortcoming), you might want to consider whether a particular school did not fit you ... and happily move on, wiser for the experience, and seeking learning environments and opportunities that are a better match.

    As you begin shopping for educational and career opportunities that are a good "fit", you may wish to take a look at the documentaries "Self-Taught" and "Class Dismissed."

    The Davidson database has information for parents, which is also great for high school students. For example, information on creating one's own transcripts... especially for Do-It-Yourselfers such as homeschoolers, unschoolers, and those whose lives may be impacted by poor "fit" with available learning environments, school refusal, etc:
    - https://www.davidsongifted.org/search-database/entry/a10874
    - https://www.davidsongifted.org/search-database/entry/a10631
    - https://www.davidsongifted.org/search-database/entry/r15884

    If there is something one needs to learn (or demonstrate their knowledge of) in a particular topic, such as English, one could cull ideas from these materials to create a curriculum and/or reading list and/or project(s) to achieve their goals.

    There are other free resources as well... guidebooks on Advocacy, Gap Year, 2e, and more.
    - https://www.davidsongifted.org/young-scholars/free-guidebooks

    It is possible that seeing yourself as a Do-It-Yourselfer, a motivated, out-of-the-box thinker, even a person with some auto-didactic tendencies... may help you keep moving forward in a positive manner.

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    #247343 - 07/13/20 04:11 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    Eagle Mum Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/24/20
    Posts: 91
    Loc: Australia
    Reading carefully through the details of your academic history, you have certainly shown that you can perform at an extremely high level because you are gifted AND talented, but have some gaps in your CV. In competitive application processes for higher levels of academia and/or work, such gaps are relevant, no matter how brilliant a candidate might be - they may affect how well a candidate meets the essential criteria of a position or raise a flag that the candidate might cherry pick their workload and shirk the less appealing duties & responsibilities of their position. Selection panels obviously do look for talent, but in my experience, they often consider reliability as a greater virtue. You will find this to be the case in any job, even if you set up your own business, because clients will value the same things as employers. Therefore, I encourage you not to give up on your pursuit of an academic career, but rather to spend some time tending to the gaps which might be holding you back.


    Edited by Eagle Mum (07/14/20 12:52 AM)

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    #247344 - 07/14/20 05:31 AM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: indigo]
    Eagle Mum Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/24/20
    Posts: 91
    Loc: Australia
    Hi Indigo,

    Your opening paragraph is very insightful & wise, about how a poor fit of schooling could be negatively internalised and the more positive perspective & approach which could be taken instead.

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    #247345 - 07/14/20 07:10 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: indigo]
    MumOfThree Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/11
    Posts: 1678
    Loc: Australia
    I really want to support what Indigo and Eagle Mum have said in their last posts. It is very important that you not internalize not fitting an educational institution as your personal shortcoming. But it is also true that workplaces consider more than just your greatest talents so it is worth working on your weaknesses and gaps.

    As a parent of three twice exceptional children I find it is an ongoing struggle to balance the need to work with my children from a strengths based perspective vs remediating their weaknesses. When should I concentrate on extending them in their strengths so that they can know and experience themselves as highly able, and learn all the things that come with being challenged (for example it's much easier to learn task persistence for an engaging challenge than a task for which the only challenge is persisting through extreme boredom). And when should I concentrate on remediating their weaknesses to an at least semi functional level? Which weaknesses should be considered a life long disability, which it is reasonable to always expect they will have accommodations in study and work?

    For example: I have a child whom I have organised radical acceleration in one subject area, tutoring in an area of weakness (with a 2E specialist who gets that a 2E child's struggles may not be the same as the general population needing tutotoring in that subject), and have also made sure that they are never required to use handwriting because this will remain a life long issue and should be fairly easily avoided in any workplace.

    You don't seem to mention your parents, I fear that you have not had someone doing this for you, perhaps they did not realise they could, or should, perhaps they tried and did not have much success (it's certainly an uphill battle for me). Now you must learn to do it for yourself.

    If English is an area of weakness for you, please know that it is possible to tease out what precisely is the problem and then consider, ideally with professional help, whether there is a less common approach to getting the "qualification" you need in this area in order to continue to tertiary studies. Clearly you are not completely unable to write anything coherently. Perhaps your issue is literary analysis? Perhaps it is drawing inferences, handwriting or speech. Whatever it is, some issues are far more in need of remediation than others before you can move forward. Some issues you possibly need only to seek professional support to frame as the disability they are.

    Please continue to reach out and continue to learn in your areas of interest while working on the issues that are holding you back.

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    #247347 - 07/15/20 10:46 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    Anisotropic Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 12/09/18
    Posts: 20
    English is an area of relative weakness compared to math and science, although that's unrelated to the situation here. I had an A in the class up until failing to complete the final paper. This happened not owing to an inability to write altogether, but instead to general apathy regarding my academic future. In some sense I wanted to force myself to drop out rather than to go to a mediocre university far too late.
    I have never failed a class that I actually put effort into. My unweighted GPA was 3.973 when I applied to college. A similar situation occurred in 8th grade. I was promoted into precalculus after a great deal of pleading with the district, though they were entirely unwilling to let a middle-schooler take calculus since the only version available was AP. I had already taught myself calculus and was dreadfully bored, so I stopped doing work for the class and attending school in general. Credit wasn't ever actually awarded for that course.
    I did find that my scores on essay portions of standardized tests were generally much worse than on multiple-choice English or reading sections (36 on both on the ACT as a soph), though they were still above average.

    My parents have historically either been not in my corner whatsoever or in my corner entirely too much with no in-between. Despite having test results in elementary school they didn't think I was gifted or talented because the results were uneven and the district indicated I was not. The result can only be described as a "weaknesses-based" approach where I was constantly reminded of being a subhuman autistic freak forever separated from the rest of humanity. More recently they've been pushy in trying to help me reach my goals, not knowing that it's impossible for me to ever reach them at this point.
    _________________________
    "The thing that doesn't fit is the most interesting."
    -Richard Feynman

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    #247349 - 07/16/20 06:59 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    MumOfThree Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/11
    Posts: 1678
    Loc: Australia
    You sound very self aware here, that even if English is a relative weakness that you are well able to complete the required tasks, if you had not sabotaged yourself. Which it seems you believe that you have done.

    It is absolutely not impossible to reach your goals now. Except perhaps where goals relate to achieving X by age Y, that you might need to let go of. But age/time related goals like this, in most scenarios, should be seen as realistically having very little to do with the actual achievement you wish to make. If you are aiming to be a prima ballerina, it is my understanding that if you do not have a placement in a company by 18/19yrs old, then you probably never will. So yes, there are certain accomplishments that have an age/timeframe attached to them, but this is very much the exception, not the rule.

    You are not "too old", it is not "too late", and you are not incapable of achieving great outcomes. You are currently standing in your own way though.

    I should have thought to point you at this article earlier:

    https://www.davidsongifted.org/search-database/entry/a10421

    Do you have any sort of mentor with regard to your autism? Or connection to a community of adults living successfully with autism? I think it would really do you the world of good to have contact with a mentor or community who views Autism in a more positive and supportive light. In Australia the first example that comes to mind is the I CAN network:

    https://www.icannetwork.com.au/

    Perhaps someone in the US will be aware of a similar opportunity available to you in the USA?

    I used to really enjoy Karla's ASD page, she's not been very active for quite some time, but she has some really useful resources and posts that are worth reading.

    https://www.facebook.com/Karlas-ASD-Page-155369821204141/

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    #247353 - 07/18/20 07:28 AM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    chris1234 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/27/08
    Posts: 1897
    It's clear you're smart and unfortunately, you won't be recognized as such by everyone - though it can be very frustrating - schools, jobs, etc. just will not pick the brightest most creative people because they are usually not looking for those things, imo.
    What they want - compliance to norms. Paper records of 'achievement'. People-persons (not all bad, but...ug).

    The point someone made about grieving the 'slam dunk life' we were sold is oh so true. Life is freaking hard and disappointing a lot of the time and frankly, a lot of that has to do with $ or the lack thereof.
    I'm probably guilty of instilling some of those pipe dreams in my own kids as well.
    I have an extremely gifted couple of kids here, one of whom is now 20 and in community college. While always very bright seeming and testing very well when time is not an issue, with asperger's, add, and later the physical exhaustion of POTS, things have not been a straight line at all for this guy. But he realizes if he wants to get to his goals - fluency in Japanese, math studies, computer science type job (hopefully), moving out of the house (!) and continuing to animate on the side, that he has to keep plugging away. A lot of this is not fun. A lot (LOT) of his classes and professors suck. Bless their hearts, they suck. For him, at least. Issues include not 'getting' his various accommodations and only putting them in place late in a semester, using but then not supporting some third party homework software, being mind-numbingly dull, poor information, poorly worded tests, etc. One or two have been genuinely ok. wink
    After a rough couple of classes he has gotten on a more even keel and *seems* to be doing ok. He still can't even take more than 2 or 3 classes a semester due to still working through some of the exhaustion. But he has what most studies point to for success long term :grit.
    I think there are many threads on this site on that elusive quality; how do we instill it in our kids, etc.
    But, I know it's hard to have 'stick-to-it-iveness' when you're dealing with mental health hurdles - that is not my point. Definitely focus on getting healthy, feeling good and then taking one step at a time.

    That is my point: it's not all or nothing, small steps are O.K! 1 single community college course just to get the credits going. Or a certification in computer science if you need to get a job and put food on the table (not sure your circumstances). Baby steps. (My husband btw, went to college without some final h.s. credits and does not have a h.s. diploma, but has a b.a., after 8 years of a few courses when he could; I.Q. way the hell up there. )

    My son will not be graduating with his 'cohort' - but really they never were his cohort to begin with, and now literally everyone is going to have odd gaps and strange bumps in the road with covid-19 throwing everything into a tizzy. Well, maybe not everyone in New Zealand.

    p.s. maybe you can reach out to new people online and get some conversation/camaraderie going - my son has also done that where people he would meet irl where just not into the things he's into (eg: golden age japanese cinema.)

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    #247359 - 07/18/20 05:18 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: chris1234]
    Eagle Mum Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/24/20
    Posts: 91
    Loc: Australia
    Hi Chris1234,

    It’s great you took the time to write this post. I’d been thinking about posting something similar because very recently there have been three separate threads started by gifted young adults who appear to be at crossroads in their lives & contemplating which directions to take, having experienced various setbacks.

    Gifted kids may possibly experience more disillusionment because many would have achieved good to stellar grades in high school relatively easily and have expectations that Uni should be even better as they get to choose what they want to study. I think the first potential pitfall with Uni is that many of the highly desirable courses attract a range of talented peers who each have similar expectations, so other factors (fairly or otherwise) often become relevant to success.

    Your advice about the value of tenacity and that achievement & success are not ‘all or nothing’ are particularly valuable. I was going to write the very same comments from first hand experiences, but you have written so well, I’ll just second what you’ve posted.

    Following another thread of comments from other PPs, parents also may play a significant role. The ‘Eagle Mum’ moniker was carefully chosen. DH & I have experienced some of these difficulties & challenges in our youth, as gifted individuals who received poor or misdirected parental support. We are now in relatively good positions to watch out for our kids, so they get to explore the territory with the confidence that we have their backs covered. Life is definitely not a level playing field - one just has to make personal choices and efforts and determine & savour own successes.


    Edited by Eagle Mum (07/19/20 03:20 AM)

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    #247361 - 07/20/20 05:01 AM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    MumOfThree Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/11
    Posts: 1678
    Loc: Australia
    Chris has brought to my mind the saying “Anything worth doing is worth doing badly”. There is a meme from “an ex gifted child” about this concept somewhere out there on the internet, and multiple articles. It’s a valuable concept to sit with and work towards.

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    #247362 - 07/20/20 12:09 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    Wren Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1644
    Life lessons are hard. I remember thinking I didn't need good "language skills" since I could do calculus in my sleep, then I had write reports. And I thought my brilliance would be enough. But my incoherence was overwhelming. I took an english writing course. Just basic. I was smart enough to get it. I just had to apply it. and making the effort, changed everything. But I had to make the effort. I had to learn how to make speeches that were coherent, could be followed, instead of assuming that everyone could see what I could see. I have boo-hooed many times at the blockages in my life that seemed unfair. But I finished boo-hooing and find another way. Since I was not dead. I know that seems strange. But I met a girl. She was 16, I was 19, I had a summer job for the city. Long story short, she had burn scars all over her body, she lived behind a strip mall in a shack. She was in a program I was running and she was so happy to be a part of it, excited that I got a free lunch at an Italian restaurant for the group. Little things. Every time I got in my hole, I remember that girl. I have skills, I have opportunity, I tell myself that if I am not dead, I can try again. You can try again. There are refugees that have no options. You have options. stop boo-hooing.

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    #247670 - 10/09/20 11:10 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    Tigerle Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/14
    Posts: 602
    Loc: Europe
    I realise I am late to the party, but couldn’t not respond. I once hit a very horrible wall in my life, and had the luck to come up against a pair of very smart docs who said “this is not you talking. This is your depression talking. Take your meds and wait for them to kick in and this WILL disappear”. I am sure you are aware that antidepressants take some time to kick in for most people. (I am actually a pretty fast responder but the crisis was so deep.)

    You NEED to get off that substance abuse and on antidepressants. Don’t make any decisions until you fell yourself coming back. It may have happened for you already or not, but it must happen. You may not be able to find a good therapist, ever. I never did. I make do with talking regularly, every 8 weeks or so, to the psychiatrist who prescribed my meds. A psychiatrist should also be able to get you a medical withdrawal from that English class. Unis might actually not care either way.

    I cannot stress the reliability thing enough, for real life.

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    #247689 - 10/13/20 11:09 AM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: MumOfThree]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4474
    As mentioned upthread,
    Originally Posted By: MumOfThree
    ...“Anything worth doing is worth doing badly”...
    An article about the source of this quote -
    A Thing Worth Doing (Chesterton)
    Link - https://www.chesterton.org/a-thing-worth-doing/

    Would this be the meme that came to mind for this quote...?
    Link - https://pics.me.me/when-in-your-gifted-child-days-you-developed-a-habit-20519158.png

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    #247693 - 10/13/20 09:11 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    MumOfThree Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/11
    Posts: 1678
    Loc: Australia
    Oddly that was not the meme! Or the article. The article was very interesting. And does get much more to the point of the original meme I saw. Which was not to praise poor effort, but rather that half of an ideal outcome is better than no outcome... Too rushed/sick/depressed to brush your teeth for 2mins? Do it for 30seconds and you are 100% better off than not having done it at all.

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    #247694 - 10/13/20 10:11 PM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: MumOfThree]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4474
    Thank you for elaborating, MumOfThree. That is an excellent illustration of the concept, and a great application, too.

    Without having been previously familiar with that quote, coincidentally our family has long had a backup plan of doing things "lite" when need be. I now see the quote as a wonderful affirmation and validation.
    smile

    Hopefully many will find that they can adopt the mantra that "anything worth doing is worth doing badly," and vastly improve their situation by living it. This also fits with the saying, "Done is better than perfect." Thanks again for the quote and the example!
    smile

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    #247697 - 10/14/20 05:07 AM Re: Taking a Gap Year or Dropping Out? [Re: Anisotropic]
    madeinuk Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/18/13
    Posts: 1453
    Loc: NJ
    Quote:


    I find it useful to keep in mind that a therapist is someone you're hiring as a consultant to help you figure out how to run your brain better, and their job is to eventually make themselves obsolete; the responsibility ultimately rests with you, and the more you learn and figure out on your own about your psychology, the easier the process will be.



    ^^^^^^^^^^ Exactly ^^^^^^^^^^^^


    Edited by madeinuk (10/14/20 06:05 AM)
    _________________________
    Become what you are

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