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    #247203 - 05/25/20 01:30 AM Re: College Placement Specialist? [Re: Eagle Mum]
    MumOfThree Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/11
    Posts: 1610
    Loc: Australia
    Originally Posted By: Eagle Mum
    Thus extra time for exams would be carefully scrutinised at primary & secondary school level.

    My understanding is that the evidence shows that extra time really doesn't benefit those who don't need it. You are right of course that for certain tests time pressure is part of the test to sift out the top 1-5%... Particularly in math I would say.

    The extra time is so that you can show what you know, if you are slower than others for a diagnosable reason. The extra time makes no difference if you don't actually have any knowledge to show...

    Also note that extra time is actually exhausting. If a 3 hr exam becomes 3hrs45 mins, and that happens twice in one day you are doing 1.5hrs more exams per day than your peers, with less break... Sometimes this problem becomes so severe that something gets moved, other times it's just the price you pay for needing extra time. The whole of last year involved multiple experiments in making sure that allowed accommodations were actually beneficial and whether they should or should not be used for each subject.

    I have another child who has multiple professionals recommending extra time and they just won't use it. Maybe by the time they get to the end of highschool. If we can keep them in school that long...

    Originally Posted By: Eagle Mum
    Once the student is at Uni, the goal for the individual is to complete their degree, which is not a competitive process.

    Well, accessing honors years, graduate courses (especially graduate medicine!) it can be extremely competitive. And many of the courses that now exist with guaranteed placement in the next degree for high achieving school leavers have requirements about maintaining a certain GPA. For kids on track to careers requiring graduate degrees they need to stay competitive the whole way through their undergraduate degree too. My first year uni student is certainly pretty grateful this semester won't count to their final GPA because of COVID. Pretty harsh to have only 2 weeks of starting uni in person and then isolation... Other than that, there is no sense that the pressure is off after highschool.

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    #247205 - 05/26/20 05:38 AM Re: College Placement Specialist? [Re: MumOfThree]
    Eagle Mum Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 02/24/20
    Posts: 38
    Loc: Australia
    Iím not sure if Iíve understood your post correctly, but my understanding is that University courses are demanding but generally the atmosphere of competitiveness is not there. Maintaining a high GPA requires achieving high marks but in the handful of universities where I have social contacts, Iíve not heard of any instances where a student with a high GPA couldnít enrol in a further degree because they were competitively beaten out by others with higher GPA scores (Iím not saying it hasnít happened but itís nothing like the education arms race of OC/SS/HSC). On the other hand, there are 18 000 UMAT candidates competing for only about 1500 domestic places for undergraduate medicine (half the courses are now postgrad for which the GAMSAT exam is applicable) and even fewer dental places. My daughter has Uni peers who were heavily coached to achieve the HSC marks to get into their medicine course, who are now satisfied with marginal pass grades because at the end of the course, that is enough to get them their medical degree (very cynical approach to life IMO).

    WRT to the extremely competitive tests to get into opportunity classes, for each of the maths, English & aptitude tests, there are 35 questions per paper with 30 minutes allowed. Success requires extremely (almost ridiculously) tight time management for kids as young as 8. It is in this context that I make the observation that many schools are really cautious about arranging for extra time. I suspect that if they allow 45 minutes for each paper, the make up of these classes would be different - more students with innate abilities who havenít been coached (OC & SS teachers have confided these same suspicions to me). Therefore, I favour less time restrictions, but generally there has been little resistance to restrictions because contrary to sifting for the really top students, it gives others a better chance because improved speed is more amenable through coaching than other facets of intelligence.

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    #247206 - 05/26/20 10:49 PM Re: College Placement Specialist? [Re: Pemberley]
    Mana Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/17/12
    Posts: 882
    Wow, I am so glad to see that your DD is heading to college soon!

    What about colleges that have "open curriculum?" I think she'd thrive in places that would let her explore her own interests in depth:

    https://www.grinnell.edu/academics

    I would be careful about community college since too many credits could mean that you have to apply as a transfer student and that sometimes isn't a good thing.

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    #247207 - 05/27/20 09:07 AM Re: College Placement Specialist? [Re: Pemberley]
    spaghetti Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/05/15
    Posts: 441
    As a parent of a 2E who has followed yours over the years (mine are in college now!), I have a few thoughts FWIW.

    First, what does your DD want to do with her life? What does she want to experience in college? What are her college goals? Before looking at colleges, get her to narrow things down for you. It was like pulling teeth here so I had specific questions that must be answered by a specific date: Where do you want to be (away from home, at home, far away, etc). What do you think you want to major in? How sure are you (do you need a school with a lot of flexibility for changing or might you do OK with a single focus-- like engineering, or art, or one of the other specialties. What does she see herself doing for a career? How much education, how competitive, what is the path?

    Second, After you've given her a chance to dream a bit, help her find some colleges that might meet her needs. Small? Big? Rural? Have her major? After looking a bit, make a list of what's important for a college -- good for 2E?, athletic facilities? Dorm life? Distance? Weather?

    Third, Once you narrow it down, VISIT-- yeah, it's hard right now, but most colleges have virtual tours to get you started. And admissions will often give you a student contact if you ask (Not Colorado School of Mines-- the only one that had an unhelpful admissions and didn't get either of my kids due to this despite loving the school). Some may even offer an overnight experience.

    By now, you should have narrowed down to 6 or less. Definitely look at your state school, and at your community college. My 2E went away to school and then came back for community college and then went back. Small school, very 2 E friendly and accommodating. We investigated our large state school too, and that would have been "ok".

    IOW, keep an open mind. She may thrive at a 2E school, and it may be the best for her, but don't limit her yet. Make sure that there isn't a situation where she'd meet a wider variety of students. (I worked with a girl who absolutely needed a 2E school-- and thrived there).

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    #247208 - 05/27/20 05:27 PM Re: College Placement Specialist? [Re: Eagle Mum]
    MumOfThree Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/11
    Posts: 1610
    Loc: Australia
    Originally Posted By: Eagle Mum
    My daughter has Uni peers who were heavily coached to achieve the HSC marks to get into their medicine course, who are now satisfied with marginal pass grades because at the end of the course, that is enough to get them their medical degree (very cynical approach to life IMO).


    I think that there is definitely more of a relaxed approach to getting through uni if you don't need your bachelor degree to feed into a competitive masters program (or graduate medicine). I am sure the first year direct entry med students are all exhaling...But they will need to be competitive to get the specialization they want, to varying degrees depending on what that is, so I imagine the effort for grades will come back. And we are certainly of the impression those students doing a bachelor degree on the way to a competitive graduate program need to be working very hard to get in... We'll see in a few years I guess.

    We are totally derailing this thread though :-(


    Originally Posted By: Eagle Mum
    WRT to the extremely competitive tests to get into opportunity classes, for each of the maths, English & aptitude tests, there are 35 questions per paper with 30 minutes allowed. Success requires extremely (almost ridiculously) tight time management for kids as young as 8. It is in this context that I make the observation that many schools are really cautious about arranging for extra time. I suspect that if they allow 45 minutes for each paper, the make up of these classes would be different - more students with innate abilities who havenít been coached (OC & SS teachers have confided these same suspicions to me). Therefore, I favour less time restrictions, but generally there has been little resistance to restrictions because contrary to sifting out the really top students, it gives others a better chance because improved speed is more amenable through coaching than other facets of intelligence.


    Now that is a peculiarly NSW issue... and to a limited extent in some other places. And does make it clearer to me why NSW are more draconian about typing and extra time compared to some other states. Or the IB for that matter, the IB board are very reasonable.

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