Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about the Davidson Academyís online campus for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute
  • DITD FaceBook   DITD Twitter   DITD YouTube
    The Davidson Institute is on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube!

    How gifted-friendly is
    your state?

    Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update

    Who's Online
    0 registered (), 0 Guests and 84 Spiders online.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    hannahjeni, Catherine86, Chaj, AlanLuiz, Jach
    11221 Registered Users
    October
    Su M Tu W Th F Sa
    1
    2 3 4 5 6 7 8
    9 10 11 12 13 14 15
    16 17 18 19 20 21 22
    23 24 25 26 27 28 29
    30 31
    Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
    Topic Options
    #246839 - 02/20/20 09:09 AM Need guidance: math placement in middle school
    Minor Third Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 09/29/16
    Posts: 5
    I am new to advocating for my child and could use a little guidance. My daughter is currently a 5th grader in elementary school. She is not identified as gifted by the school system--I think GT identification starts in middle school--but she is in an advanced math class that covers both 5th and 6th grade material in one year. I recently discovered that there are a small number of students who are subject accelerated in math even further. They are studying mostly independently, sometimes with a teacher, and they are getting advanced 7th gr math material. My DD is not one of these highest group students, despite having consistently performed well in standardized testing, getting high A's in her coursework while finding it too easy, and having no behavioral or organizational issues. Some of her teachers have shared with us in the past that her MAP-M and MAP-R scores were the highest in her grade, and this year we were told that her MAP-M score (272, 99%ile) is the highest in the school, including the highest accelerated group.

    Given all this, I am a little confused as to why she was not selected for the highest accelerated group. I did not even know this group existed until recently, so it is too late in the school year for me to ask if she can join. My guess is that skipping was never suggested to us because she has not done any additional math course outside of school (such as CTY), because she is young for grade, or because I never advocated for her. But she finds the regular advanced math easy, and has gotten perfect scores on all her exams. She genuinely loves math and tells me she wishes she were a part of the group doing 7th grade math. However, she is not one to complain to the teacher that she is bored, and she seems happy enough with school in general, so for this year I think her situation is fine.

    However, I don't want to make the mistake of not advocating for her in the future. I at least always want to know what the options are so we can make an informed decision. I asked her teacher about placement for next year, and he says his former students typically get pre-algebra in 6th grade. However, a very small select group get pulled out for testing at the beginning of the year to see if they are ready for algebra. Instead of letting things be as I've done in the past, I'm thinking of approaching the middle school and making sure she gets tested.

    My question for is, how do you know when a kid is algebra ready? Even if she passes whatever test they give her, and I suspect she might because she's always been good at test taking, I worry about putting her in above her head before she has a good foundation in place. It's been a long time since I did middle school math, so I have NO idea how the curriculum is set up, and whether finishing the combined 5th and 6th grade math course this year would be a good enough of a foundation for going straight into algebra. I don't want her to be bored and wishing she could do more, but I also don't want her to get a rushed education that isn't solid. Any thoughts from more experienced parents would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

    Top
    #246869 - 02/25/20 07:14 PM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: Minor Third]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3984
    Welcome!

    You may find information such as the NWEA guidance on placement useful. For example:
    https://community.nwea.org/docs/DOC-1486

    which lists the recommended minimum scores on the 6+ test from 2016 for placement into high school math courses. She may or may not have been tested on the 6+ test (or its 2019/20 equivalent) (given placement in grade 5, it may have been the 2-5 test, but given placement in a grade 5/6 math class, it may also have been the higher-level test). Certainly, it would be reasonable to ask the district to assess her on the appropriate MAP math test for objective decision-making on math placement.

    With regard to preparation for algebra, if the school has a robust placement system, then that should address the appropriateness of her placement. In the school where I am employed, the observation has been that the students who struggle the most with algebra I are those who are not solid on their arithmetic, not really on prealgebra skills (which will be reviewed in the first month of algebra). E.g., skills with fractions, decimals, and arithmetic computations with negative numbers. Also, FWIW, some of us skipped over prealgebra into algebra (one of my children), and some others of us skipped over algebra I into algebra II (myself). So it is certainly possible to be successful in algebra I without a prealgebra course.
    _________________________
    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...

    Top
    #246872 - 02/26/20 05:49 AM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: aeh]
    Minor Third Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 09/29/16
    Posts: 5
    Thank you, aeh. It is very useful to know you can skip pre-algebra and still do well in algebra. This is my main concern. The kids in the highest math group are learning pre-algebra and because it's too late in the year to join that group, I worry she would not be algebra ready. I guess I'm pretty fuzzy on what exactly constitutes pre-algebra so I'm going to look at a text book. She appears to be covering arithmetic topics in her 5/6 math course, such as long div, decimals, operations on fractions.

    Top
    #246874 - 02/26/20 11:32 AM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: Minor Third]
    Minor Third Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 09/29/16
    Posts: 5
    aeh,

    One more question, since you work at a school, do you know if there's any correspondence between MAP 2-5 and MAP 6+? I do not know which test she was given but am assuming it was 2-5.

    Top
    #246878 - 02/27/20 01:26 PM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: Minor Third]
    JudAU Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 08/28/18
    Posts: 39
    Looking back through my files, my kids had qualifying score for Algebra through MAP testing without IMHO the skill base. But they had those qualifying scores much earlier than normal.grades 5-6-7-8 get compressed in various ways at various school. My daughter skipped fourth grade math and entered the accelerated track and got to 5th grade doing the 6th grade work and it was slow. She worked through both a prealgebra book and an algebra book and then took a self paced CTY class in prealgebra. She is still enrolled in math at school because I canít be bothered to fight with them anymore. We are trying to change schools. She needed those foundational books to be able to work at the CTY level. She loves math but has never really had a rigorous teacher.

    But she really loves the CTY. It is awesome. Fast rigorous. Easy for her to manage her time by being online.

    Top
    #246879 - 02/27/20 05:39 PM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: Minor Third]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4922
    Originally Posted By: Minor Third
    I think GT identification starts in middle school... I at least always want to know what the options are so we can make an informed decision.
    Are you able to access your school and/or district website, to determine whether the policies may be found online?

    You may also find this crowd-sourced list helpful... it is a roundup of advocacy tips from parents on this forum, over the years. You may also wish to read about student self-advocacy and consider whether you believe the time may be right to help your child develop these skills and learn these approaches.

    Originally Posted By: Minor Third
    how do you know when a kid is algebra ready
    The Iowa Algebra Aptitude Test (IAAT) used to be the tool for measuring whether a child is ready for algebra. Maybe it is still in use? The Iowa Algebra Aptitude Test is mentioned in this link on the Davidson Database: Tips for Parents: Parenting Mathematically Talented Students in 7th Grade and Younger

    Originally Posted By: Minor Third
    ... middle school math... how the curriculum is set up, and whether finishing the combined 5th and 6th grade math course this year would be a good enough of a foundation for going straight into algebra.
    This link to the Common Core Math Standards may be helpful; it shows the basic progression of skills: http://www.corestandards.org/Math/

    Top
    #246910 - 03/02/20 12:29 PM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: Minor Third]
    Minor Third Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 09/29/16
    Posts: 5
    Just wanted to thank everyone who responded with all the helpful suggestions and resources. It seems my posts are taking many days to appear after I submit them, so I'm not able to reply in a back-and-forth discussion, but I really appreciate the info so far.

    Top
    #247013 - 03/31/20 01:23 PM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: Minor Third]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3984
    Sorry about the delay.

    MAP 2-5 has some concordance with 6+, but it lacks the higher-level items (e.g., high school level math), which means that very high scores on the 2-5 typically see a small to moderate drop on retest with the 6+. In this case, scores in the upper 90s %iles are in the ceiling of the test, and, on the 2-5, likely have very high error bars compared with similar scores on the 6+. The 6+ retest would be expected to still find scores well above average, but possibly not in the upper 90s %iles.
    _________________________
    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...

    Top
    #247015 - 04/02/20 04:16 PM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: Minor Third]
    Yanaz Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 01/07/20
    Posts: 36
    Loc: Los Angeles
    Hello everyone !
    My DS10 is in 4th grade at Carpenter. His teacher has a small group of 7-8 kids in the class, who do advanced math ( Algebra 1)
    And until some time I didnít even know that my son is in this group!
    I mean, of course I knew that he is very advanced in math!
    But I didnít know about this group in his class!
    It seems to me that it depends on the teacher and school!
    But he he still receives his grades for CC Math. only ! There is no grade for Algebra1 in 4th grade🤷‍♀️

    Is there any chance to skip at least 5 grade math next year?
    Maybe we can ask the school to test him and to put him on a right level of math , the one that good for him ? How does it work in this situation? Please any recommendations !

    Top
    #247023 - 04/07/20 07:18 PM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: Yanaz]
    JudAU Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 08/28/18
    Posts: 39
    LAUSD does not allow this type of true acceleration so the teacher is probably introducing the fun and accessible parts to keep bright kids interested. The absolute fastest they allow actual acceleration is to have a few district schools have Albebra I as sixth graders. And I think there are only three schools in the entire district who offer it. And most of the so-called math and stem schools donít offer it. They have anmath pathway video that makes it clear.

    https://achieve.lausd.net/Page/11659

    If your child needs additional challenge Iíd consider the honors math at CTY which contains a great deal of additional content than regular grade level work. For instance, my son is a great math student and in Algebrs I but had never seen some of the content in my younger daughterís CTY prealgebra class.

    If he already in the gifted program? I assume so. In my experience neither district or charter schools will label/grade non-standard classes.


    Edited by JudAU (04/07/20 07:19 PM)

    Top
    #247025 - 04/07/20 10:52 PM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: JudAU]
    Yanaz Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 01/07/20
    Posts: 36
    Loc: Los Angeles
    Yes ! Youíre right ! Itís more like extra work for gifted and advanced kids in her class!
    And yes, he is HG student ! But Iím thinking he needs this accelerated math!
    otherwise he has nothing to do in a regular math class!
    Thatís why I want him to get into the IHP program at Walter Reed ,I think it will be good for him! But, still we have one more year!
    _________________________
    YanaZ.

    Top
    #247026 - 04/07/20 10:55 PM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: JudAU]
    Yanaz Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 01/07/20
    Posts: 36
    Loc: Los Angeles
    And thanks for this video 👍🏻
    _________________________
    YanaZ.

    Top
    #247034 - 04/11/20 02:10 AM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: Minor Third]
    puffin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/11/12
    Posts: 2035
    Originally Posted By: Minor Third
    Just wanted to thank everyone who responded with all the helpful suggestions and resources. It seems my posts are taking many days to appear after I submit them, so I'm not able to reply in a back-and-forth discussion, but I really appreciate the info so far.


    The first posts are held and checked so there is a delay. I have been coming here 7 years and have never seen spam so it seems to work.

    Top
    #247048 - 04/17/20 09:18 AM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: Minor Third]
    Minor Third Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 09/29/16
    Posts: 5
    AEH, Thanks for the clarification regarding MAP 2-5 vs 6+.

    I just wanted to update. Since the Covid-19 disaster struck, I signed my daughter up for the AOPS prealgebra 1 self-paced course. She has been loving the format and thriving on the material. What a change from what she was getting in school!

    Top
    #247083 - 04/30/20 12:20 PM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: Minor Third]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3984
    Great to hear you and she have found a good solution to math for now!
    _________________________
    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...

    Top
    #247658 - 10/06/20 08:34 PM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: aeh]
    David448 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 04/08/19
    Posts: 4
    The URL https://community.nwea.org/docs/DOC-1486 no longer seems to work; it seems NWEA completely reorganized their website with the 2020 update.

    I'd like to know of those who have taken CTY classes - how does the NWEA MAP Test compare to the SCAT test necessary for those?

    Top
    #247681 - 10/12/20 07:39 PM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: David448]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3984
    NWEA recently released updated norms, so a new collection of guidance documents should be in the offing. In the meantime, this alignment of math RIT scores to Common Core skills by grade level may be of interest. It was developed in conjunction with Khan Academy, which has a collaborative for using MAP scores to route to practice exercises, much like their arrangement with the SATs:

    https://cdn.nwea.org/docs/MAP+Growth+Grades+6%2B+to+Khan+Academy.pdf

    These are the new norms, which generally find that student achievement has declined a bit:

    https://teach.mapnwea.org/impl/MAPGrowthNormativeDataOverview.pdf
    https://teach.mapnwea.org/impl/NormsTables.pdf

    Here's a linking study from TX on algebra end-of-course predictions based on NWEA MAP:

    https://www.nwea.org/content/uploads/2020/07/TX-EOC-MAP-Growth-Linking-Study-Report-2020-07-24.pdf
    (concluded that RIT 240 was approximately equivalent to algebra I proficiency)

    And user norms for high school math courses:
    https://teach.mapnwea.org/impl/CSNormsOverview.pdf
    Check the 50th %ile for spring for an approximation of end-of-course expected RIT.


    Edited by aeh (10/12/20 07:43 PM)
    _________________________
    ...pronounced like the long vowel and first letter of the alphabet...

    Top
    #247723 - 10/24/20 12:44 PM Re: Need guidance: math placement in middle school [Re: Minor Third]
    Nolepharm Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 01/31/17
    Posts: 26
    Loc: Florida
    My son has been mostly enjoying AOPS pre-algebra this year. He enjoys the weekly class and the alcumus/challenge problems and can complete them all each week. He hasnít gotten into looking in the text book at all, and has preferred going back to the beast academy style comics instead. He is still on the younger side, so perhaps heís just not as ready for a more academic setting.

    I have been extremely impressed with the content of the course and the thought provoking questions that AOPS creates. So thankful for everyone who suggested Beast/AOPS for mathy kids! It has been such a blessing to find fun math. I was initially surprised by the delivery mechanism of the class...basically a message board, but it is actually quite effective for the lessons.

    Top
    Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


    Moderator:  M-Moderator, Mark D. 
    Recent Posts
    Understanding testing!
    by Klangedin
    10/03/22 08:58 AM
    NYC pivots on admission criteria
    by indigo
    10/01/22 12:11 PM
    The ultimate brag thread
    by LazyMum
    10/01/22 03:07 AM
    How do you choose a profession?
    by LazyMum
    09/30/22 04:13 AM
    Introduction
    by indigo
    09/24/22 08:17 AM
    Davidson Institute Twitter