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    #246713 - 01/31/20 02:30 PM Re: Large drop in IQ between 5 and 14 [Re: viktor877]
    viktor877 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 02/02/19
    Posts: 11
    Anyway, it appears that posts that I'm making are showing up now, so I'll re-write what I tried to post earlier.

    I have thought that I could have NVLD, but when I was younger, I used to initiate projects for mental stimulation, most of which required at least some degree of NV ability. Like when I was 8 or so, I planned / designed an electrical system for a detached garage, using the guidelines that I had read in books, and then I worked with my dad to install it, and now our detached garage has power when it used to not. Also, when I was 10-12, I planned and built a 1,500ish gallon fish pond, but the pond took a while to complete, and I had to make some revisions to the design of the filtration system. I'm not sure if the need to revise my design for a filtration system was due to NVLD, or just a lack of experience with building pond filtration systems.

    My biggest struggle has been with math, by far. They used to do timed math problems in first grade, and I disliked math after that, as the time limit stressed me out. I usually did okay on the end of year math tests, at the end of 6th grade, I scored above the 80th percentile on an out of level math assessment normed on 7th/8th graders. I did worse on assignments, as I had trouble solving problems using the particular steps that were supposed to be used. I refused to wear glasses in Elementary school, despite having a strong prescription for myopia, and that made it hard to follow what was being taught. I think that for multiple-choice tests, I would use my own heuristic methods for solving problems, and that would allow me to score well, but that wasn't sufficient for assignments, which required the "correct" steps to be demonstrated sequentially to get to the solution. Using a purely heuristic approach would leave me unable to demonstrate the "correct" steps to find the answer, even if the answer was right, unless I was able to work backwards from the answer, which I couldn't always do.

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    #246714 - 01/31/20 04:21 PM Re: Large drop in IQ between 5 and 14 [Re: viktor877]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3557
    The cognitive profile you post could be construed as consistent with NVLD--but it's important to remember that NVLD does not represent a clear consensus or DSM-established diagnosis. It's more like a useful construct for discussing a collection of learning profiles. Some people with your apparent test profile have social vulnerabilities, and others don't. The functional manifestation of the cognitive profile does tend to be coincident with relative weaknesses in math--but not always all specific areas of math (usually geometry more than algebra). And those with strong fluid reasoning separate from visual spatial skills can find other approaches to success in math.

    There are also other possible interpretations of the data you've presented, which we've already established have limitations. For example, you mention being stressed by timed math problems, having a strong visual prescription for corrective lenses, and very low visual-motor processing speed. All of these could be suggestive of, among the possibilities, weaknesses in one or more of: visual spatial processing, visual acuity, visual convergence/divergence, or fine-motor coordination (ocular or hand).

    In order to tease apart the various possible factors that could be affecting your past and present educational experience, and to accurately inform your future planning, it may be that a more comprehensive evaluation (preferably when you're in a relatively stable moment in your life, so that some of the factors that interfere with test validity that we've discussed before are minimized) would help you understand yourself better. Although you were tested under two years ago, you are old enough for the WAIS-IV now, so you could be re-tested with a good cognitive instrument if need be.

    I'd probably start by getting a better handle on your vision and fine-motor skills though, including not only your straightforward acuity, but other aspects of visual processing, such as those assessed in an occupational therapy evaluation and by a developmental optometrist (especially convergence/divergence and visual tracking). These would be conversations to have with your parents/guardian, guidance counselor and your primary care physician. Your health insurance may cover the cost of at least one of those evaluations. (And even if your parent/guardian does not have insurance, and doesn't qualify for state aid, you personally may qualify for state-subsidized health insurance under SCHIP, since you are still a minor.)

    Again, your data and your writing both present as that of a very capable young person. You have a lot to offer, and a tremendous opportunity to turn the struggles you've lived through up until now into compassion for others. It takes inward strength to move forward through adversity, and to see not closed doors, but new ones opening. I see the evidence of that strength lurking in you, as you so clearly are here looking for solutions and new possibilities in your future path.

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    #246715 - 01/31/20 04:38 PM Re: Large drop in IQ between 5 and 14 [Re: viktor877]
    viktor877 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 02/02/19
    Posts: 11
    I wear contact lenses now, and I can perform okay on fine motor tasks, I'm good at soldering.

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    #246716 - 01/31/20 07:30 PM Re: Large drop in IQ between 5 and 14 [Re: viktor877]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3557
    That's good to hear. I'm still curious about tracking and convergence, though. And maybe fine-motor speed, as separate from dexterity. Being good at soldering is also not incompatible with certain specific fine-motor weaknesses, and certainly doesn't address the question of fine-motor speed, since there are no bonus points for soldering more quickly. (E.g., one of my siblings was slow to develop fluent handwriting, but took to soldering and electronics in general rather easily, and also is very good at removing splinters!) If you don't have evaluations in these areas, though, it won't ruin your life or anything. It's just another piece of information.

    From a practical standpoint, I actually don't think you need to focus too much on these past test results. They document that you have strengths in learning ability--which you already know from the most productive parts of your educational history--and that you've had challenges in the past, many of which were not academic in origin. That's enough to say that you should feel free to pursue any educational and career path now that comports with your interests, life goals and personal values, while working on making healthy life choices for growth as a whole person.

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    #246717 - 01/31/20 10:23 PM Re: Large drop in IQ between 5 and 14 [Re: viktor877]
    viktor877 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 02/02/19
    Posts: 11
    I can still type fairly quickly, but if I try to go too fast, I end up sacrificing accuracy for speed.
    My result from a typing test I just did:
    https://i.postimg.cc/pr1XksDv/10fast.png

    I just wonder how much I really "regressed" IQ-wise.


    Edited by viktor877 (01/31/20 10:23 PM)

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    #246718 - 02/01/20 12:07 PM Re: Large drop in IQ between 5 and 14 [Re: viktor877]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3557
    If you want the short answer: don't know, and it's impossible to quantify with the existing data sets.

    As I've explained in my longer responses above, there are too many factors that could have been interfering with your formal test performance at the time of your second set of results to determine how much of that was regression to the mean from your very early (and consequently also lower reliability) testing, and how much was the interfering factors. Whatever your "true" numbers might look like, you're clearly intelligent enough to do whatever you have opportunity to do and commit to.

    Your IRL performance data are more important anyway. Do what you can do to get yourself to an emotionally and physically healthy place, and then pursue whatever field of study floats your boat, keeping an open mind about natural changes in your interests that may occur along the way.

    All the best.

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    #246861 - 02/25/20 09:32 AM Re: Large drop in IQ between 5 and 14 [Re: viktor877]
    viktor877 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 02/02/19
    Posts: 11
    It turns out that I wasn't tested on the WPPSI like I had thought, I was tested on the KBIT-2. All I was able to obtain was the letter with the percentile ranks, I scored above the 99th percentile verbally, but only in the 79th percentile for NV. Is it likely that I am still currently 2E, or just "bright" along with a few disabilities?

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    #246864 - 02/25/20 12:25 PM Re: Large drop in IQ between 5 and 14 [Re: viktor877]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3557
    This data is essentially compatible with our prior discussion. It establishes that your personal and normative strengths in language-related domains were evident early on, and validates the achievement pattern you've observed on standardized testing since.

    A few notes on the KBIT-2: This is more of a screening instrument than a comprehensive assessment of cognition, consisting, as it does, of two motor-free subtests. This also means that processing speed is much less of a factor, both because it is untimed, and because you don't have to manage any materials. It does imply a little bit less score stability even than we were already assuming, as now we are dealing with not only an assessment of a very young child, but also an assessment using a screening instrument. But that it has the same profile you've consistently had throughout your education suggests that it does have some validity.

    In summary, this recent clarification of your early testing results doesn't significantly change our overall interpretation, which is that you are above average in verbal cognition, and at least average in nonverbal/visual spatial thinking, with verbal reasoning likely well above average. The distinction between 2e and bright/LD (which I don't think we can definitively make based on your existing data) is less important than most people think, in terms of your experience of and options for life.

    My advice remains the same: work on your overall health, and then do what you love.

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    #246873 - 02/26/20 09:20 AM Re: Large drop in IQ between 5 and 14 [Re: viktor877]
    pinewood1 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 01/25/19
    Posts: 26
    The map is not the territory.

    Human concepts, like "gifted" and the various levels thereof, and various disability labels, are attempts to categorize the wide variation that exists to make more sense out of it. The boundaries of a naturalistic concept are not going to be sharp and clear. The question is what categorizations are useful to make.

    At this point, it doesn't really seem to make a difference which side of the "gifted" line you fall on (different people will draw that line differently, anyway). I understand the curiosity, but there is no One Real Answer Out There to find.

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