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    #117883 - 12/09/11 09:35 AM Re: The ultimate brag thread [Re: ultramarina]
    Iucounu Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/02/10
    Posts: 1457
    Originally Posted By: ultramarina
    Iucounu, while I understand your frustration, we have had many incidents like this, and I think it's important to encourage kids to look for "the answer the teacher wants." Yes, your son is right, and I would tell him that he is right, but I also would have him write the answer the teacher wants. If you wanted to, he could then write in the margin why the question is confusing. There is so much danger of overthinking and then responding "wrong" to poorly written questions with these kids. It's a life skill to know what is actually being asked and at what level--albeit a depressing one. Now, I would agree that his response IS evidence of a child who is thinking at a higher level and who needs more challenge.

    We talked about what the intent of the problem writer must have been, but he still gave the right answer and I think that's best. If this were a computer-graded test that mattered, without any option for "insufficient info" as an answer, I might think it was for the best to intentionally give a wrong answer, but not when a human's supposed to be grading it. If he winds up a person who's sometimes thought to be wrong but can always prove himself right, I'll be happy. I could probably have him work on explaining himself with more than one sentence in addition to a diagram or something, but I'm also hoping these bum questions don't pop up often. (ETA: I guess I could see having him explain "X yards would be a wrong answer, because...", but I can't contemplate him actually giving it as an answer.)

    Here, the teacher either doesn't understand how to do math problems very well, or she didn't give it a passing thought despite his answer and diagram, and also may have wanted to mark him wrong to prove a point that he's not infallible and/or not at as high a level as his testing and previous learning suggests.

    This shows the problem with having him not actually being taught by a person in my opinion. With a halfway decent math teacher in a class, the teacher would have understood his explanation or asked for more info, and DS would have been able to explain in class as well. I'm not so worried about him missing a life skill here as not being given what everyone else at the school gets-- instruction. I'd feel differently if the teacher, despite not getting it, had asked for more info. And the diagram makes it pretty obvious. (In a different case, he gave the correct answer and the teacher graded him wrong without apparently looking at the answer sheet.)
    _________________________
    Striving to increase my rate of flow, and fight forum gloopiness. sick

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    #117893 - 12/09/11 11:08 AM Re: The ultimate brag thread [Re: CFK]
    Michaela Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/18/09
    Posts: 529
    Loc: The bottom of my cup
    re: lucounu's post

    I was once given a 0 on a group assignment (and my other group members were also given 0s) based on the comment "This is professional work, not appropriate for class" or some slightly different wording. It was true, we had submitted the idea we'd earlier abandoned for a project where the new idea was produced professionally and successfully. The teacher had marked various things wrong, and we'd provided our explanations and proofs, and things had gone back and forth a few times. When the principle got involved, the teacher came up with this excuse. The principle wound up leaving the 0s, but only counting it towards my overall grade, it was left out of the others' grades. I don't really know why it was left in my overall grade, asside from the fact that I was the group leader, and also the only person in the group who could have been described as a professional in the area. This kind of thing did not do wonders for me socially.

    The course was a required Grade 9 credit, and my "professional" status had not gotten me out of taking it. The 0 counted for a significant portion of my mark, and I almost failed (she marked me very harshly on everything else, too, and stated it was due to my "professional" status, even reducing some of my earlier marks.

    These kinds of arguments can be dangerous. I still can't figure out what answer the teacher wants unless I spend more time on that than on the course material. I don't have the foggiest notion WHAT to do about it. Except maybe cry.

    arg.

    -Mich
    _________________________
    DS1: Hon, you already finished your homework
    DS2: Quit it with the protesting already!

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    #117903 - 12/09/11 12:14 PM Re: The ultimate brag thread [Re: CFK]
    ultramarina Offline
    Member

    Registered: 08/24/10
    Posts: 3423
    Quote:
    Here, the teacher either doesn't understand how to do math problems very well, or she didn't give it a passing thought despite his answer and diagram, and also may have wanted to mark him wrong to prove a point that he's not infallible and/or not at as high a level as his testing and previous learning suggests.


    Certainly possible, but IMO, the more likely explanation is that she wants him to think in the same way I described--"What is the answer the teacher wants me to give?" because she knows it will serve him in the education system. She doesn't want him to overcomplicate things or to think outside the box on a question that was intended to be simple.

    We have run into various versions of this ourselves, and I agree that it's frustrating and that a better teacher would respond differently. I still remember an essay on "What Being An American Means to Me" I had to write in 6th grade; I said I was too young to know this or to have any perspective on the question. I had a good teacher, and she loved it and gave me an A, but I could have been failed.



    Edited by ultramarina (12/09/11 12:14 PM)

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    #117904 - 12/09/11 12:27 PM Re: The ultimate brag thread [Re: ultramarina]
    Iucounu Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/02/10
    Posts: 1457
    Originally Posted By: ultramarina
    Certainly possible, but IMO, the more likely explanation is that she wants him to think in the same way I described--"What is the answer the teacher wants me to give?" because she knows it will serve him in the education system. She doesn't want him to overcomplicate things or to think outside the box on a question that was intended to be simple.

    But he didn't overcomplicate or think outside the box-- he gave the right answer, and the answer key's wrong! I really think a likely explanation with this particular teacher is that she didn't understand his explanation. I don't know what she would have done if she had understood, but I suspect I'll find out soon. :| I love your essay answer.

    @ Michaela: I know what you mean. It could seriously complicate things to try to anticipate every notion someone else can have. I think a clear explanation of what you're saying should be enough.
    _________________________
    Striving to increase my rate of flow, and fight forum gloopiness. sick

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    #117986 - 12/11/11 03:29 PM Re: The ultimate brag thread [Re: CFK]
    Stargazer72 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 10/03/11
    Posts: 4
    DS 3.2 on the way to the symphony: " We have to be pianissimo while the musicians are playing.

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    #117993 - 12/11/11 10:18 PM Re: The ultimate brag thread [Re: CFK]
    GeoMamma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/10/10
    Posts: 487
    smile Stargazer72

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    #118217 - 12/14/11 05:20 PM Re: The ultimate brag thread [Re: ultramarina]
    vwmommy Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/06/11
    Posts: 85
    Loc: Minnesota
    Originally Posted By: ultramarina
    Iucounu, while I understand your frustration, we have had many incidents like this, and I think it's important to encourage kids to look for "the answer the teacher wants." Yes, your son is right, and I would tell him that he is right, but I also would have him write the answer the teacher wants. If you wanted to, he could then write in the margin why the question is confusing. There is so much danger of overthinking and then responding "wrong" to poorly written questions with these kids. It's a life skill to know what is actually being asked and at what level--albeit a depressing one. Now, I would agree that his response IS evidence of a child who is thinking at a higher level and who needs more challenge.


    I'm with locounu on this one. I will always encourage my child to give the best possible answer to any given question. For one thing, in later math classes if you make assumptions about information you will get that problem wring. I would not want to teach my child that for now you should assume to know the unstated information but later on you're going to have to do it exactly the opposite later. Also, I believe strongly in not hiding knowledge or ability. I won't tell my child to try to think at a lower level just to get a problem right- his brain just doesn't work that way. Lastly, I remember being in these situations myself as a child and standing my ground (with my mom's support). Sometimes I got the credit, sometimes not- that's life- and that's a lesson I am willing to teach my kid.

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    #118318 - 12/15/11 06:26 PM Re: The ultimate brag thread [Re: CFK]
    doclori Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/02/11
    Posts: 176
    Loc: Miami, FL
    Congratulations! That is truly a success story. I'm sure you're proud of him -- be proud of yourselves too!!! Wonderful news!

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    #118319 - 12/15/11 06:36 PM Re: The ultimate brag thread [Re: CFK]
    BWBShari Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/24/08
    Posts: 1167
    Loc: NM
    CFK, you give the rest of us hope! Pop in every now and then just to say HI, pat us on the head and remind us of the light.... First Dottie, then Kriston, now you..... Ageing out sucks!
    _________________________
    Shari
    Mom to DS 10, DS 11, DS 13
    Ability doesn't make us, Choices do!

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    #118325 - 12/15/11 08:19 PM Re: The ultimate brag thread [Re: CFK]
    La Texican Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/10/10
    Posts: 1777
    Loc: South Texas
    I hate to see you go but I'm very happy for your family's success and happiness. Thanks for sharing. I always enjoy reading about when things go right! Like Hallmark would say, "congratulations! Now go out there and make a Splash!"
    _________________________
    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar

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