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    #246391 - 12/03/19 09:28 AM Binet LM
    Alannc44 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/30/18
    Posts: 31
    Mostly I'm just curious, but is there a specific reason the Binet LM test isn't included in the list of acceptable tests for acceptance in Davidson?

    My DD hit the ceiling about three years ago on several subtests on the Binet V, but we hesitated applying with her scores at that time because of various reasons. (Mostly because we found a neighborhood private school that was pretty decent) Now that it's been more than three years, we've discovered that our local gifted school needs updated scores in order for acceptance (as does Davidson). Our "local private school" could be better for us now and we're thinking about moving on.

    We made the trip out to Denver, which was fabulous for us since Dr. Silverman's office is so acquainted with little smarties. Sure enough, the LM version put our little one clearly in the highly gifted range, bordering on exceptional. We're still waiting for more scores and information, but the LM version she took gives that one score that leaves minimal questions.

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    #246392 - 12/03/19 11:18 AM Re: Binet LM [Re: Alannc44]
    Kai Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/17/09
    Posts: 588
    One reason might be that you can easily get copies of the manual for the LM on Amazon. Another is that the norms are ridiculously outdated.

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    #246393 - 12/03/19 11:59 AM Re: Binet LM [Re: Alannc44]
    Alannc44 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/30/18
    Posts: 31
    Good points... btw, do an ebay search for Wechsler...

    As far as the norms, check out some of what Dr. Silverman has to say about that in regards to HG/PG in some of her essays posted on Hoagies.

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    #246398 - 12/03/19 02:09 PM Re: Binet LM [Re: Alannc44]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3506
    The LM is fundamentally a different kind of measure than the contemporary deviation tests, generating a different metric at the end of the process. We have some data on the relationship between the LM and more recent tests, but it is necessarily limited with regard to HG+ learners.

    1. The LM is what is called a power test, for which a somewhat simplified description might involve quality over quantity, and depth rather than efficiency. So it deemphasizes speed and memory.

    Elsewhere, the prominence of cognitive efficiency (working memory and processing speed) in standard contemporary measures has been discussed at length.

    2. The LM generates a mental age (ratio IQ), derived by comparing the examinee's absolute performance to the median performance by age obtained by the standardization population. This is how the sky-high scores sometimes reported can be obtained. If you score at the level of a 16-year-old (the maximum reference age used by the LM, on the assumption that cognitive development past 16 is negligible) when you are 7 years old, your mental age-based IQ comes out as 229. Of course, if you are tested when you are 10 or older, your IQ will be capped at 160 or less, which is no higher than the contemporary tests, but without the Flynn effect (norm obsolescence/score inflation).

    Current tests nearly all use the deviation IQ, which is based on transformations of the z score, comparing the individual to their age-matched norm group in terms of how many standard deviations off the mean their performance falls. Or put another way, their ordinal position compared to age-peers.

    IOW, the LM aligns learners to those who perform at the same level, and then derives an IQ by comparing their ages, while contemporary tests align learners to those who are the same age, and derive IQs by comparing their performance.

    Allowing some to qualify by using deviation IQs, and others to qualify with ratio IQs, would be comparing apples and oranges. The limited available concordance data for the HG+ population supports the contention that they are related--but not the same kind of metric.

    And yes, Pearson is fighting a losing battle against those who illegally resell Wechsler kits.

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    #246399 - 12/03/19 04:09 PM Re: Binet LM [Re: Alannc44]
    Alannc44 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/30/18
    Posts: 31
    Thanks!

    And, of course my daughter, being the perfectionist, wanted to take her time on the timed portions of the WISC. My understanding is some of those subtests are all but nulled out if even a guess isn't made. (?) We never coached her, nor even suggested guessing answers.

    The argument for grade skipping by way of deviation scores kind of falls apart, no? After all, the age ratio thing would correspond to older-aged kids. I also understand that because the LM simply has more difficult questions and problems that it allows someone with a wide conciousness (for lack of a better word) to actually perform. When something like the Binet 5 is used, one or two missed questions can ruin the whole score.

    Very interesting stuff. Thanks again

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    #246400 - 12/03/19 05:04 PM Re: Binet LM [Re: Alannc44]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3506
    You're welcome. I'll note that the SB5 development team made attempts to regain some of that power test quality, using item sets, rather than straight x-in-a-row-incorrect ceiling rules. It also covers the range continuously from age 2 to adult, so that, hypothetically, a toddler could test into the mature adult range of difficulty. (Although I think most would be well overdue for a nap long before then!) Speed is still less of a factor on the 5 than on the Wechslers.

    You are correct that deviation scores do not technically tell one anything about performance compared to older/higher grade students. This is one of the key reasons why the use of age/grade-equivalents is strongly discouraged. The test is designed to order an individual within their age (or grade) peers, not to compare them to populations in other ages (or grades).

    Most systems use deviation IQ data as only one of the contributors to grade-skipping decisions. A model that might make a bit more sense might resemble that used by the home district of my youth, where early entrants to kindergarten underwent a complete battery of cognitive and academic achievement assessments, followed by two weeks of trial kindergarten in the summer, prior to being admitted to kindergarten for the school year. Of course, that's a bit labor intensive (and rather expensive), not to mention practical only if you happen to be a district (such as that one) with an unusually high number of applications for early entrance to K, such that a summer lab class can be formed.

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    #246401 - 12/04/19 05:30 AM Re: Binet LM [Re: Alannc44]
    Alannc44 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/30/18
    Posts: 31
    It's funny you describe the kindergarten example. This is very relevant to me. My DD was in an alternative-green-montessori type preschool. I knew, as apparently most parents do, that she had a lot going on mentally. At five, she wanted to read but the school had a time table for that. I had her professionally tested and the psychologist used the Binet 5. She scored 99.7%. With that knowledge, we applied to a couple of private schools. A couple of the schools wanted her to repeat kindergarten based on assessments they made; however, I found one school that would let her move on to 1st grade based on the Binet V score. This school had a CERTIFIED gifted teacher who, not only brought her up to snuff, but re-instilled in her excitement for learning. She's doing very well in 2nd grade now.

    Regardless of age ratio, or deviation IQ scores, I'm a believer. She does well on both. She prefers older friends, but with further help from her 1st grade certified teacher as ammo, we're able to advocate for a little extra.

    These tests really can validate both age appropriateness and deviation. While she prefers older kids, I noticed yesterday she was playing with a really smart friend. That friend was actually younger by a year, so this tells me deviation AND age both play parts.

    Again, thanks.

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    #246402 - 12/04/19 07:33 AM Re: Binet LM [Re: Alannc44]
    Kai Offline
    Member

    Registered: 05/17/09
    Posts: 588
    Originally Posted By: Alannc44
    Good points... btw, do an ebay search for Wechsler...

    As far as the norms, check out some of what Dr. Silverman has to say about that in regards to HG/PG in some of her essays posted on Hoagies.


    I am well acquainted with Silverman's opinions regarding the LM, and I am not saying that it doesn't yield useful information. But using it in 2019 to determine eligibility for a program/school doesn't make sense. They also don't accept scores from the WISC-R, which was normed around the same time.

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    #246405 - 12/04/19 12:33 PM Re: Binet LM [Re: Kai]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3506
    For the record, Silverman's position on the LM is not necessarily shared by others with similar credentials in GT research. Nancy Robinson, one-half of the GT research power couple for whom the UW Robinson Center is named, went so far as to publish an article in the Roeper Review (http://www.davidsongifted.org/search-database/entry/a10128) arguing for moving on from the LM to tests with updated norms and design (at the time, we were only up to the SBIV).

    At the simplest level of arguments for using SBLM for clinical uses only (not quantitative), it is apparent from a large body of contemporary research that cognitive development does not stop at age 16.

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