Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links
DITD Logo

Learn about the Davidson Academy’s online campus for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S.

The Davidson Institute for Talent Development is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Davidson Fellows Scholarship
  • Davidson Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute
  • DITD FaceBook   DITD Twitter   DITD YouTube
    The Davidson Institute is on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube!

    How gifted-friendly is
    your state?

    Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update

    Who's Online
    2 registered (onemom13, sunnyday), 0 Guests and 266 Spiders online.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    Eric Johnson, cmh, bethanyc3, SageC, AmandaParkinson
    10658 Registered Users
    December
    Su M Tu W Th F Sa
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7
    8 9 10 11 12 13 14
    15 16 17 18 19 20 21
    22 23 24 25 26 27 28
    29 30 31
    Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
    Topic Options
    #245982 - 09/02/19 12:20 PM WISC-V score help
    sh22 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/17/10
    Posts: 11
    Hello oh wise test experts! I hope you can help, even though this is not about a gifted student...

    I've just had my 14 yr old homeschooled daughter tested at the local high school for suspected LD's. Can you help me interpret the results and figure out further questions for the school psychologist?

    WISC-V scores:
    FSIQ - 116 86%
    Verbal comp - 130 98%
    Vis spat - 122 93%
    Fluid reas - 123 94%
    Work mem - 79 8%
    Proc. Speed - 75 5%


    Scaled scores:
    Sim - 16
    Vocab -15
    Info - 15
    Block - 15
    Vis puzz - 13
    Matrix - 15
    Fig weight - 13
    Digit span - 7
    Pic span -6
    Coding - 4
    Symbol - 7

    Does the great disparity in scores point to a LD? The psychologist' report just lists strengths and weaknesses. Not sure where to go next....

    Top
    #245984 - 09/02/19 12:52 PM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: sh22]
    Portia Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/17/13
    Posts: 1766
    Welcome Sh22. There are others who will go into more depth than I can. Here are my initial thoughts...

    The differences in the scores can indicate something else going on. You have to take that information and see how it plays out in everyday life and school life. Since you homeschool, you have a better picture of what's going on.

    The areas with the lower scores have fine motor associated with them, if I recall correctly. I think there is also a time limit which may impact the scores. What do you see at home regarding fine motor skills? How does she handle deadlines? How does she do with multistep instructions? Are there any concerns you have specifically which led you to have her tested?

    Top
    #245985 - 09/02/19 12:53 PM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: sh22]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3465
    I am assuming that an assessment for eligibility determination would have included achievement or other testing as well. That information would be extremely helpful in discussing the meaning of these results.

    That being said, I will also mention that you may wish to reconsider the contention that this is not about a gifted student; her verbal comprehension would generally be considered to be in the GT range, and the VS and FR domains not far below it. Her GAI, in fact, is in the GT range, while her CP is Very Low, a difference of nearly four standard deviations. With the marked difference between reasoning (GAI) and efficiency (CPI, or WM & PS), the FSIQ cannot be considered the most nuanced representation of her actual thinking ability.

    IOW, this cognitive profile certainly would keep the question of an LD alive. Whether she actually exhibits one would depend on many other areas of data, such as her formal academic profile, and your observations of her IRL performance. What led you to the evaluation?

    Top
    #245987 - 09/02/19 02:11 PM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: sh22]
    sh22 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/17/10
    Posts: 11
    Thanks so much for all the input! We didn't get the GAI score and I can't find tables online.

    DD *struggles* with math and numbers - she has great problems with rote memorization, math facts, multiplication, and dates. She has great difficulty retaining math lessons - she can read a math book and understand, but the next week cannot remember the lesson. She finds writing laborious and is a very poor speller. She has completed 3 AP exams (3 and 4's), but finds self-learning through textbooks difficult, and doubts her own abilities.

    The assessment also included the WJ-IV . Her scores are mostly all in the average range, with a few very low scores

    Basic reading - 96
    Letter id -98
    Word attack - 93
    Sentence fluency - 108
    Math - 93
    Math Calculation - 72!!
    Applied problems - 106
    Math facts fluency - 62!!
    Calculation - 84
    Written language - 103
    Spelling - 89
    Writing samples - 119
    Sentence writing fluency - 96

    Top
    #245988 - 09/02/19 06:05 PM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: sh22]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3465
    pm'd you.

    Hm. Outside of writing samples (which is not scored for spelling), these are all markedly low for someone with her reasoning ability. Depending on what you anticipate as her post-secondary path, you may wish to consider a trip through an OG-based spelling or decoding intervention (e.g., Logic of English, All About Spelling). Do you currently use assistive technology with her? At the secondary level, it would be reasonable to use all forms of AT at some point, depending on the instructional goal at that moment. Though read-aloud/text-to-speech is likely less useful than it might otherwise be, given her WM. I would let her use speech-to-text for first drafts, when writing, so that she can get her ideas down without worrying about spelling and punctuation, and then go back and revise with the word processor. I would also consider use of a calculator.

    How are her fine motor skills?

    She is retaining something, because her strong verbal comp scores all require long-term retrieval of learned verbal skills. Is there any kind of pattern you can see in either what she remembers, or under what conditions she seems to recall more easily? I'm going to speculate that she does better with narrative, meaningful, contextualized memory, than with symbolic and rote memory. She might do better with strategies that create context or narratives, such as mentally storing related facts in "rooms", or learning multiplication through mini-stories, like in Times Tales. Is her recognition memory (aka, multiple choice tests) any different than her free recall (open response)?

    Top
    #245992 - 09/03/19 10:45 AM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: sh22]
    sh22 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/17/10
    Posts: 11
    Sorry to binge-post, but our IEP meeting is next week...

    The school psychologist says they don't do the GAI score. What is the best response? An someone recommend the best (short) "official" explanation or document to support use of the GAI?

    Thanks so much!!

    Top
    #245993 - 09/03/19 12:09 PM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: sh22]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3465
    NAGC position statement on using the WISC-V GAI for GT identification:

    https://www.nagc.org/sites/default/files/Misc_PDFs/WISC-V%20Position%20Statement%20Aug2018.pdf

    This document from Pearson (the publisher) regarding use of the GAI vs FSIQ references the WISC-IV, but still explains the argument for considering the GAI among global measures of cognitive ability:

    https://images.pearsonclinical.com/images/assets/WISC-IV/80720_WISCIV_Hr_r4.pdf

    There are no legitimate online tables for the WISC-V GAI.

    Top
    #246008 - 09/04/19 06:55 AM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: sh22]
    EmmaL Offline
    Member

    Registered: 08/20/15
    Posts: 142
    sh22- If your District is like mine you might have a bit of trouble at the IEP meeting. You will need to show evidence of your daughter's struggling, in addition to testing discrepancies. Bring many work samples that document DD's struggles. Everything is data-driven. This way if the IEP team states well "we think" everything is fine and every student struggles from time to time, you can retort with data.

    You should also type out all of your parent concerns in bullet point format. This way you will run the IEP meeting instead of the district running it. Your other option would be to disagree with the District's testing and request a neuropsychological evaluation.


    Edited by EmmaL (09/04/19 06:57 AM)

    Top
    #246031 - 09/05/19 01:44 PM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: sh22]
    polarbear Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/29/11
    Posts: 3360
    Originally Posted By: sh22
    Sorry to binge-post, but our IEP meeting is next week...

    The school psychologist says they don't do the GAI score. What is the best response? An someone recommend the best (short) "official" explanation or document to support use of the GAI?

    Thanks so much!!


    Is the purpose of the IEP meeting to identify your dd as gifted so she has access to honors or gifted programs at the high school, to identify remediation and accommodations that will assist with the challenges she has, or both? If access to gifted programming isn't an issue (ie, doesn't require id as gifted by the school), I wouldn't worry about having the GAI calculation. I'd focus instead on the areas in which her achievement test scores don't sync with what you would expect from her ability (WISC) scores, and as EmmaL suggested, try to provide your own examples of specific areas where she is struggling. Please note that I'm not a professional, just a parent of a 2e student - but fwiw when advocating with our school district it helped me tremendously to fill in with specific examples of how our ds' challenges impacted the equivalent of work he would be tasked with doing in the classroom. You mentioned your dd has trouble retaining math lessons - you can recreate this at home by working through a specific lesson with her from her school curriculum, record her responses and ability to understand at the time of the lesson, document your notes and date - then one week later ask her to complete a few problems pulled from this lesson, mark them yourself, date it. Things like that - all of which may be too late to do for this IEP meeting, but something to consider in the future if you find the school is not seeing that there is an issue.

    There may also be a local parents advocate group that can help you understand what your rights are in your specific school district - although IEPs and 504 plans are pare of Federal programs it can help tremendously to understand how your own school district works, what their time frame and resources are, and what other parents' experience has been when seeking similar assistance from the school. I found our local group by googling... but that was years ago, and at this point in time this same advocates group is listed on our school district's special ed website as a resource.

    You mentioned your dd is 14 - it would also likely be helpful to have her voice included in the IEP meeting, which can happen even if she's not present.

    If the school district doesn't provide any further testing, it may be helpful to you (focusing not on school, but on helping your dd understand her challenges as well as strengths) to seek a neuropsychologist evaluation - the neuropsychology eval will include testing that can further determine *why* there are differences in achievement vs ability scores and help understand what is at the root of the variability in WISC scores. This was all extremely valuable information for us as parents and also for our ds. It didn't necessarily help with advocating at school when teachers and staff didn't want to hear about it, but it helped us understand what was really going on, how to remediate where possible, and how to work around challenges that would always be present.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

    Top
    #246033 - 09/05/19 03:14 PM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: sh22]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3465
    Just flipped back through the thread and was reminded that you homeschool...that gives a slightly different flavor to your advocacy. What is your objective in the IEP meeting? Are you seeking appropriate (GT or disabilities) services for your DC as a fully-enrolled public school student? Ancillary services as an in-district homeschool student? Instructional guidance for you as the homeschool parent and primary direct provider of instruction? The advocacy approaches of most utility will depend on your purpose.

    Top
    #246039 - 09/06/19 10:56 AM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: aeh]
    sh22 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/17/10
    Posts: 11
    Yes, we homeschool, so not looking for school - provided resources per se.

    DD requested the testing - she wanted to know why she struggles with (esp.) math.

    For me, I'd like formal accommodations for testing. She has completed 3 AP tests in time, but felt stretched to complete the essay portions. I can't even imagine her getting through the SAT math sections with her lack of math fluency....

    The school requires the PPT and IEP meetings - with like 20 people included!! They are visibly afraid that we will enroll DD...

    Top
    #246040 - 09/06/19 11:02 AM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: polarbear]
    sh22 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/17/10
    Posts: 11
    I'm afraid that without the GAI to show her higher level of potential, they will look at the FSIQ - high average, and all her WJ scores - mostly average, and determine hey! no problem here: average kid, average scores. The psychologist report doesn't mention LD's, just "relative" strengths and weaknesses. No real acknowledgement of her super low scores, or the discrepancy between her ability and her achievement.

    I can pursue the college board on my own, if needed. And DD can learn even better strategies for formal testing, if needed. I just don't want to be brushed off by the school pack.

    Top
    #246041 - 09/06/19 01:12 PM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: sh22]
    polarbear Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/29/11
    Posts: 3360
    Originally Posted By: sh22
    I'm afraid that without the GAI to show her higher level of potential, they will look at the FSIQ - high average, and all her WJ scores - mostly average, and determine hey! no problem here: average kid, average scores. The psychologist report doesn't mention LD's, just "relative" strengths and weaknesses. No real acknowledgement of her super low scores, or the discrepancy between her ability and her achievement.


    That's where I found it super-helpful for myself to understand the individual WISC and achievement subtests in terms of what skills did each test, and then be prepared to explain what the differences represent. GAI isn't the only score that shows your dd's high potential - the subtest scores also show this. It would be nice to have the GAI, but even without it you have subtest data from the WISC that shows high potential and you have subtest data from the achievement testing that doesn't show the correlation you would expect given your dd's potential in corresponding areas. I can't offer you the specifics for your dd's case as I'm not a professional, but my experience as a parent advocating for a 2e child - understanding where the discrepancies told the story re my child's abilities and challenges was extremely helpful in advocating (more so than having a GAI, which we did have). It was also my experience that I just had to keep repeating the same story over and over - without emotion - but I was also in a situation where the school district did not want to offer accommodations or services and did not generally use a discrepancy model to qualify students for IEPs or 504s. I was ultimately successful in getting an IEP for my ds in elementary and he transitioned to a 504 in high school, as well as getting access to gifted programming. Having the neuropsychologist evaluation helped not only with understanding what his challenges were (our school district was no help re this) - but also because in advocating when the school staff would argue that ds didn't have a challenge etc and shouldn't qualify for services I could reply by asking "You are disagreeing with a degreed, certified and locally respected neuropsychologist?" - which was usually immediately effective in shutting down the attempts to close off further discussion by school staff.

    Good luck as you advocate - it can be really tough!

    polarbear

    Top
    #246042 - 09/06/19 01:29 PM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: sh22]
    polarbear Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/29/11
    Posts: 3360
    Originally Posted By: sh22
    Yes, we homeschool, so not looking for school - provided resources per se.

    DD requested the testing - she wanted to know why she struggles with (esp.) math.


    I apologize - I'm reading backwards through the replies so didn't see this before posting my previous reply smile

    Your dd wants to know why she struggles with math - with the testing she's had so far it seems she knows part of the answer to that question - she's got achievement testing that backs up her concern that there is something at play that's not allowing her to achieve to her full potential. There is still a missing piece, however - what is causing the discrepancies in scores between achievement and ability? And how does that correlate to the challenges your dd is experiencing with math recall etc? Those are things that can likely be clarified through further testing, either through the school district or a neuropsych eval.

    Originally Posted By: sh22
    For me, I'd like formal accommodations for testing. She has completed 3 AP tests in time, but felt stretched to complete the essay portions. I can't even imagine her getting through the SAT math sections with her lack of math fluency....


    If you can get further documentation that shows your dd has a specific challenge it will be helpful in getting College Board accommodations. It will also be helpful to have a 504 plan or IEP through the school district when seeking College Board accommodations. I think you can advocate for both of these even if you are homeschooling- I didn't homeschool, but when my ds was in school homeschool students were able to qualify for 504 plans and IEP services through the school district. The easiest way to qualify for College Board accommodations is to have your school district to request the accommodations and to provide evidence your student is using accommodations - the CB prefers the school district make the request - but you can also make the request. We had to make the request as our ds' school refused to do so (even though he'd had an IEP since elementary followed by a 504 plan in high school - his high school insisted they'd "never had anyone who was in the gifted program qualify for accommodations")... so we applied independent of the school and had no problem qualifying with the documentation ds had.


    Originally Posted By: sh22
    The school requires the PPT and IEP meetings - with like 20 people included!! They are visibly afraid that we will enroll DD...


    Seeing so many people invited to the meeting can be intimidating, but it also may work in your favor. It doesn't necessarily mean they are hoping to fight against your dd enrolling or receiving services - it can mean that they are wanting to be sure they have the experts they need at the meeting to cover all potential concerns. Our personal experience was that it was these experts who were in fact more understanding and helpful than the specific school personnel (Sped Rep, Counselor, etc) because they were focused on student needs and challenges rather than whether or not the school wanted to avoid spending resources on the student. If it would help you feel more comfortable, you can bring an advocate with you to the meeting - this could be a professional (paid or volunteer) advocate who is familiar with your school district's process or your dd's challenges, or it could be another parent who is simply there to listen as they aren't going to be as emotionally invested in the situation and might pick up on things that you'll miss. Do you belong to a local homeschool association that might have advice on how to prepare for and approach the meeting?

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

    Top
    #246043 - 09/06/19 01:31 PM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: sh22]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3465
    Her processing speed scores are in the range for which my institution has successfully obtained extended time for the SAT and ACT. If she has been just able to complete the AP tests within the standard time, she probably does not need 100% extended time (which, in my experience, some students find to be diminishing returns, because of the overall length of time in the testing room). 100% also requires finding and paying for a test proctor, whereas 50% extended can be handled by most regular test sites.

    Things to consider:
    1. Essay is not required on either the SAT or ACT conventional exams. SAT has changed the essay so many times in the past several years that it has limited predictive utility for admissions purposes anyway.
    2. Some portions of the tests allow calculator anyway. Her reasoning appears to be stronger than her computations, which in turn is better than her automaticity. I expect she will be fine for those parts. It might be helpful to try the sample test on line, and see how much of it really requires a calculator (not as much as you might think; my kids barely touched their calculators on the SAT, and one of them has fairly low fluency of all kinds). If she does okay on the practice test, keeping in mind that she still has a few years of high school to go, that might be reassuring.

    Does she feel like she now has enough information to understand her own learning better, especially in math?

    Top
    #246135 - 09/30/19 07:48 AM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: sh22]
    sh22 Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 03/17/10
    Posts: 11
    Hello all -

    Thanks for all your advice and information. I just wanted to update after the PPT meeting.

    As expected, they were most uninterested in a careful evaluation of her "average" scores vs. her higher potential, but we did get some traction with her "very low" math scores, and after quibbling a bit about the value of our homeschooling, the group did write up an official IEP for math calculation. They also handed over paperwork to apply for testing accommodations, which was probably our most concrete goal.

    Thanks for all the information, and to everyone who read or posted. We can move forward with the testing evaluation to help DD to understand her brain and its potential.

    Top
    #246136 - 09/30/19 10:12 AM Re: WISC-V score help [Re: sh22]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3465
    Thanks for the update! Good to hear some productive actions came out of it.

    Top
    Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


    Moderator:  M-Moderator 
    Recent Posts
    Plea for advice- HS testing no longer LD
    by aeh
    Today at 09:10 AM
    Lost in CT
    by Pemberley
    Today at 07:09 AM
    Not feeling fulfilled
    by puffin
    Yesterday at 12:53 PM
    Maine School of Science and Mathematics
    by Pdxgft
    12/08/19 01:22 PM
    What did you do with your Pre-K/K child?
    by Alannc44
    12/08/19 05:06 AM
    Davidson Institute Twitter