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    #245968 - 08/29/19 05:42 PM Re: Desegregation Plan: Eliminate All Gifted Programs [Re: Bostonian]
    sanne Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/30/16
    Posts: 289
    I haven't read everything, but wanted to jump in and say that the racial gap in identifying gifted children is closed by a thrid option I didn't see mentioned yet.

    Same-race teacher identifying students. So including equal numbers of Black and Hispanic teachers in the identification process would likely close the gap significantly. Also measures of potential rather than measures of acquired learning would be important for the identifying gifted children in a less-privileged student population.

    I don't like how articles above set this up as a false dichotomy. There are other options. The system does not need to stay segregated, nor do they need to dismantle the existing gifted program. The problem is not the program but the current selection. :facepalm:

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    #245983 - 09/02/19 12:35 PM Re: Desegregation Plan: Eliminate All Gifted Programs [Re: sanne]
    madeinuk Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/18/13
    Posts: 1439
    Loc: NJ
    Originally Posted By: sanne
    I haven't read everything, but wanted to jump in and say that the racial gap in identifying gifted children is closed by a thrid option I didn't see mentioned yet.

    Same-race teacher identifying students. So including equal numbers of Black and Hispanic teachers in the identification process would likely close the gap significantly. Also measures of potential rather than measures of acquired learning would be important for the identifying gifted children in a less-privileged student population.

    I don't like how articles above set this up as a false dichotomy. There are other options. The system does not need to stay segregated, nor do they need to dismantle the existing gifted program. The problem is not the program but the current selection. :facepalm:


    I can only hope that the highlighted text was a bad joke.

    Such a system would be open to almost unimaginable levels of abuse. I agree on teaching those with high potential - an IQ test would do this without any option for abuse.
    _________________________
    Become what you are

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    #245986 - 09/02/19 01:10 PM Re: Desegregation Plan: Eliminate All Gifted Programs [Re: Bostonian]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3448
    As it happens, there is already a fair amount of research on this topic for GT programs in general. The simplest and most equitable solutions generally employ multiple standardized data sources, and universal screening. The main points at which inequity enter are in the nomination process, and in environmental differences in opportunities for cognitive, EF, and academic development outside of school. Previous posters have referenced some of the effects, pro and con, of relying on teacher nominations. To clarify, the abuse is already present in systems which rely on any form of teacher nomination as a gating item (and the list of such systems includes a significantly large fraction of those obtaining in our current educational establishments); it is simply a question of the direction and extent to which it occurs.

    Of course, there is a limit to the impact the institutional school can have on out-of-school factors, so the factors that can be affected then contract to the design of universal screening. And, of course, any efforts to reduce inequity in instruction from one building to another.

    In the case of the programs referenced earlier in the thread, my understanding is that universal screening with multiple standardized data sources has not historically been the practice.


    Edited by aeh (09/02/19 01:11 PM)

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    #245995 - 09/03/19 01:09 PM Re: Desegregation Plan: Eliminate Gifted Programs (NY) [Re: Bostonian]
    Bostonian Online   content
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2587
    Loc: MA
    In Debate Over New York’s Gifted-Students Program, an Expert Gets Spotlight
    Joseph Renzulli’s method aims to offer students of all abilities hands-on projects that tap into their interests
    By Leslie Brody
    Wall Street Journal
    Sept. 2, 2019 2:20 pm ET

    Joseph Renzulli, an 83-year-old pioneer in gifted education, says please don’t label a child “gifted.”

    Instead, call her a gifted mathematician, singer or poet. “I talk about the development of gifted behaviors,” he says, “rather than ‘you’re gifted and the kid next to you is not.’ ”

    Dr. Renzulli’s work was touted by a diversity panel that surprised many New York City families last week with its call to end the district’s current form of gifted programs, and to scrap the standardized test for 4-year-olds that determines entry.

    The panel, appointed by Mayor Bill de Blasio, cited Dr. Renzulli’s “schoolwide enrichment model” as an alternative.

    Rather than separating young children deemed gifted into their own classrooms, Dr. Renzulli promotes a broader effort to offer students of all abilities hands-on projects that tap into their interests. When all children get such opportunities, he says, those who show strong motivation, creativity and leadership can dive into deeper work but don’t need to be siloed.

    “Give more kids the chance to throw the ball around and we’ll find out which should be quarterback,” says Dr. Renzulli, a professor at the University of Connecticut.

    He has a minority stake in a company, Renzulli Learning, offering a database that lets students and teachers find projects online that appeal to their particular interests, skill levels and learning styles, whether dissecting a virtual mummy, designing a playground or inventing a board game.

    Some parents don’t believe such an approach can nurture academic excellence. And some education experts caution the model is extremely hard for teachers to execute when facing classes of 30-plus students with wide ranges of ability and preferences.

    ...

    ****************************************************************

    There is a "g" factor, and academic abilities in math and language are positively correlated. So "gifted" or high-iQ can be useful labels.

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    #245998 - 09/03/19 04:52 PM Re: Desegregation Plan: Eliminate Gifted Programs (NY) [Re: Bostonian]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4138
    The Renzulli approach, as described here (enrichment), has been big in our area. Thinking it was better than nothing, and created a generally positive vibe, I went along with it to a degree.

    This article changed my mind, and showed me the absurdity of how much we were shortchanging kids who needed more.
    A brief extract follows, of the article as found posted on the NAGC website:
    Home » Information & Publications » Gifted Education Strategies » What it Means to Teach Gifted Learners Well
    What it Means to Teach Gifted Learners Well, By Carol Ann Tomlinson, Ed.D, The University of Virginia.

    6.Instruction for gifted learners is inappropriate when it is rooted in novel, "enriching" or piecemeal learning experiences. If a child were a very talented pianist, we would question the quality of her music teacher if the child regularly made toy pianos, read stories about peculiar happenings in the music world, and did word-search puzzles on the names of musicians. Rather, we would expect the student to work directly with the theory and performance of music in a variety of forms and at consistently escalating levels of complexity. We would expect the young pianist to be learning how a musician thinks and works, and to be developing a clear sense of her own movement toward expert-level performance in piano. Completing word-search puzzles, building musical instruments and reading about oddities in the lives of composers may be novel, may be "enriching,"(and certainly seems lacking in coherent scope and sequence, and therefore sounds piecemeal). But those things will not foster high-level talent development in music. The same hold true for math, history, science, and so on.

    This article reprinted from the May 1997 issue of Instructional Leader, with permission from the Texas Elementary Principals and Supervisors


    This article also appears on the Way Back Machine, internet archive; Saved 95 times between Sept 3, 2014 and Sept 4, 2019.

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    #246053 - 09/08/19 10:53 PM Re: Desegregation Plan: Eliminate Gifted Programs (NY) [Re: indigo]
    MumOfThree Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/11
    Posts: 1524
    Loc: Australia
    Originally Posted By: indigo
    This article changed my mind, and showed me the absurdity of how much we were shortchanging kids who needed more.

    This article also appears on the Way Back Machine, internet archive; Saved 95 times between Sept 3, 2014 and Sept 4, 2019.


    Fabulous quote Indigo, thank you

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    #246054 - 09/09/19 04:09 AM Re: Desegregation Plan: Eliminate Gifted Programs (NY) [Re: Bostonian]
    Wren Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1461
    Having gone through the process, I have a few comments. The OLSAT, which was used when DD was entering school has a problem since you don't know who is giving the test. Sometimes it is someone with a heavy accent. Since we had DD tested for a gifted preschool, we knew her IQ was around 150. When she took the OLSAT at 4 yo she tested around 60th percentile. The next year took it with someone else and was 99th percentile. There were 3 accelerated elementary schools for gifted kids. One was located in an area many affluent people didn't want to go, hence the school was about 95% AA with a scores lower on the OLSAT than the Upper West side school that had 99th percentile only. There were also some other popular gifted programs that were not technically accelerated but were great programs, great parental involvement -- parents generally raised about 1 MM per annum to support schools in computer labs and instructors, spanish programs etc. Obviously these schools were in certain demographic areas. You did not have this kind of parental involvement in some pockets of Harlem. Even if you get rid of the testing and gifted, you still would have parental involvement in schools supplementing. And I do not know how they would change the high school system that has been established for almost a century. Where you test to get into the top high schools in the country. Sty, Bronix Sci. And Hunter is underwritten by city university. What happens to Hunter? That is over 100 years old and is for HG kids. Free.

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    #246057 - 09/09/19 09:48 AM Re: Desegregation Plan: Eliminate Gifted Programs (NY) [Re: Wren]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4138
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    ... great parental involvement ...
    ... did not have this kind of parental involvement in some pockets ...
    ... parental involvement in schools supplementing...
    Over the years, parental involvement has been correlated with student success. Parental involvement can mean many different things, from traditional parenting including character development (morals & ethics, sense of right and wrong, well-formed conscience, golden rule, work ethic, motivation, responsibility, self-discipline, etc), to being a coach, mentor, and sounding board for the child, or being an advocate for the child to the system, or volunteering in classrooms and on field trips, or providing fundraising for programs.

    A few old posts that mention parental involvement:
    1) who gets into gifted programs (2015)
    2) parenting arms race (2014)
    3) Common Core movie (2014)
    4) parents not allowed to see test results (2013)

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    #246058 - 09/09/19 10:00 AM Re: Desegregation Plan: Eliminate Gifted Programs (NY) [Re: MumOfThree]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4138
    Originally Posted By: MumOfThree
    Originally Posted By: indigo
    This article changed my mind, and showed me the absurdity of how much we were shortchanging kids who needed more.

    This article also appears on the Way Back Machine, internet archive; Saved 95 times between Sept 3, 2014 and Sept 4, 2019.


    Fabulous quote Indigo, thank you
    Thanks, MumOfThree.
    smile
    It is mind-boggling that the article has been around since 1997 (more than two decades), exists on the NAGC website, and yet its wisdom is not being leveraged on a broad scale.

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    #246219 - 10/15/19 08:09 AM Re: Desegregation Plan: Eliminate All Gifted Programs [Re: madeinuk]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4138
    Originally Posted By: madeinuk
    Originally Posted By: sanne
    I haven't read everything, but wanted to jump in and say that the racial gap in identifying gifted children is closed by a thrid option I didn't see mentioned yet.

    Same-race teacher identifying students. So including equal numbers of Black and Hispanic teachers in the identification process would likely close the gap significantly. Also measures of potential rather than measures of acquired learning would be important for the identifying gifted children in a less-privileged student population.

    I don't like how articles above set this up as a false dichotomy. There are other options. The system does not need to stay segregated, nor do they need to dismantle the existing gifted program. The problem is not the program but the current selection. :facepalm:


    I can only hope that the highlighted text was a bad joke.

    Such a system would be open to almost unimaginable levels of abuse. I agree on teaching those with high potential - an IQ test would do this without any option for abuse.


    While universal screening tests have been found to be more accurate and equitable than teacher recommendation, there are some students who may not quite meet the identification criteria. Additionally, there has been criticism of parity on IQ test questions, over the years. Taking these two factors into account, the recommendation to have teachers of diverse racial, ethic, cultural, and socioeconomic backgrounds help identify students who were not identified by tests has been suggested by several sources. I think it is great that sanne reminded us of this.

    I believe the important distinction is the order of the identification criteria:
    1) universal screening
    2) IQ test(s)
    3) teacher recommendation
    Where teacher recommendation is not a preliminary filter, but rather another potential step utilized to identify students as gifted (high potential) and add them to the pool.

    For clarity, in this context, when I say "gifted (high potential)" I am thinking more of Gf, fluid intelligence (innate intelligence, as seen in pattern recognition, abstract reasoning, problem solving, puzzles)... not Gc, crystallized intelligence (acquired knowledge and experience, as seen in vocabulary, general information, analogies) or G, general intelligence.

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