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    #245017 - 03/14/19 03:51 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    Wren Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1552
    I think it shows up in the kid not being able to do the school work. DD is in a HG school like Hunter, 7-12. And there are no lower math credits. It is all accelerated. And there are some kids that struggle. We have a friend who's DD was in Hunter and dropped out after 8th grade because it was too hard. She goes to a regular HS now and gets top grades. If you get into Harvard without having the ability to keep up, you won't. There was that book about kids that are MG and top of their school and then get into IVY schools and it is a whole different level and have a breakdown. There is one in our extended family. Had done all AP courses, perfect SAT and went to Princeton and failed physics. Not for a lack of trying, but it was at a whole different level than she was used to. Took a year off and went back and did political science. Nothing against political science, but just saying that if you cannot do the work, it will show. The peer group is mostly what you are going to get at top schools.

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    #245019 - 03/14/19 07:45 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: indigo]
    mckinley Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/03/18
    Posts: 114
    Originally Posted By: indigo
    there may be a noticeable trend toward "grade inflation"


    This economist argues that grade inflation probably doesn't exist and backs his argument up with some research, and is not afraid to mention research that disagrees with that hypothesis.

    Is grade inflation a real problem?

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    #245022 - 03/14/19 08:39 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: Bostonian]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4262
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    Originally Posted By: indigo
    As an example from recent news of a student who may have graduated without gaining the knowledge and insight that the populace might expect from one holding such credentials ...

    Criticizing particular politicians will divert this thread from the topic of Ivy League Admissions.
    Thank you, Bostonian. I would shudder to think that any forum member would choose to utilize my post as a jumping-off point to divert the thread. I related a potential example of grade inflation at an elite international powerhouse without mentioning any person's name, party, or ideological views.

    As just one of 4 points made in the post, I remained on topic: The OP anticipated quite wide ranging discussion, and recent posts have addressed whether some students who gained entrance to elite colleges may ultimately be weeded out by rigorous curriculum and find themselves unable to graduate.

    ETA:
    Originally Posted By: mckinley
    Originally Posted By: indigo
    there may be a noticeable trend toward "grade inflation"


    This economist argues that grade inflation probably doesn't exist and backs his argument up with some research, and is not afraid to mention research that disagrees with that hypothesis.

    Is grade inflation a real problem?
    If no one objects, I will mention this post on an old thread about grade inflation... possibly conversation could continue there, or on a new thread, to avoid veering off-topic on this thread. smile

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    #245093 - 03/21/19 06:29 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2595
    Loc: MA
    College Coaching Doesn’t Hurt the Poor
    By Hafeez Lakhani
    Wall Street Journal
    March 20, 2019

    ...

    There is a misconception circulating that advantages bought by the rich result in spots being stolen from the poor. This oversimplification distorts the reality of how elite schools’ admissions departments put together carefully balanced classes. Colleges need to enroll some proportion of students from wealthy backgrounds to maintain financial stability. Thus admissions coaching helps wealthier applicants compete for spots already set aside for students with privilege. It doesn’t cannibalize spots for lower-income or first-generation students.

    Selective universities painstakingly admit a wide range of applicants: public- and private-school students, first-generation college-goers, students of diverse regional and class backgrounds, students with various academic interests, etc. Consider that almost 60% of Harvard’s class of 2022 attended public schools and 17% are the first generation of their families to attend college. This suggests that Harvard—as a proxy for selective universities—is doing a good job making sure that privileged applicants are competing mainly against each other.

    In holistic admissions processes, universities consider each candidate in the context of his resources and advantages, such as parents’ earnings and education level. Thus Harvard’s first-generation freshmen reported average SAT scores of 2118 (using the 2,400-point scale in place from 2005-15), while those who weren’t first-generation reported an average of 2257. Similarly, students from families that earn less than $40,000 a year had an average score of 2157, while students whose families earn between $250,000 and $500,000 had an average of 2280.

    ...

    ********************************************

    The New York Times had an article on how students used college consultants:

    ‘I’d Die of Guilt if I Did That:’ Families Who Hired College Consultants Discuss Where They Drew the Line
    When paying for admissions help is a standard practice in a community, parents and children say they feel pressure to keep up.
    By Lela Moore
    March 15, 2019

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    #245094 - 03/21/19 08:09 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: Bostonian]
    indigo Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/27/13
    Posts: 4262
    Interesting articles, Bostonian.
    Thanks for posting these and keeping us up-to-date on analysis following the college admissions scam. smile
    I thought the following was especially good to know:
    ...
    There is a misconception circulating that advantages bought by the rich result in spots being stolen from the poor.
    ...
    privileged applicants are competing mainly against each other.
    ...
    In holistic admissions processes, universities consider each candidate in the context of his resources and advantages, such as parents’ earnings and education level.

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    #245100 - 03/23/19 04:30 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    Wren Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1552
    Since it seemed to be mainly coaches taking a bribe, I think it will be very hard going forward to scam a sport. I do not know how much you can stop someone for taking the SAT for you. Although maybe they will check IDs better.
    I thought that colleges were tracking outcomes from schools. So if a kids with 4.0s from certain schools do more poorly than 4.0 students from another high school, they bell the grades lower. I also notice on college confidential that they don't seem to rate debate well since so many kids that don't get in with great scores and debate club president are deferred or rejected. I think there are too many with debate on their CV so it gets rated lower. While sailing is less prevalent and gets a higher admission rate. But with sailing you have to a have an online profile in the sailing community and race scores so it is impossible to cheat on official sites.

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    #245105 - 03/23/19 02:22 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: 22B]
    Wren Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1552
    I think it isn't worth it for the coaches now that these guys got caught. A couple of coaches only took the bribe once and now they are out of job, going to jail.

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    #245116 - 03/25/19 05:21 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: Wren]
    ashley Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/26/12
    Posts: 639
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    I do not know how much you can stop someone for taking the SAT for you. Although maybe they will check IDs better.

    Someone was taking the SAT on behalf of the applicant because they faked learning disabilities (with bribed assessment reports) and requested for double time (?) on the SAT which allowed the students to take the test in a hotel room where someone doctored the answers or took it on behalf of the student. There is nothing that can be done about these things unless there are strict rules about proctoring the extended-time tests at a central location with cameras and cracking down on fake LD assessments etc. This scam has so many facets that it needs to stay in the news for longer and make the public aware of the many ways in which the cheating was going on.

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    #245117 - 03/25/19 05:53 PM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: ashley]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2595
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: ashley
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    I do not know how much you can stop someone for taking the SAT for you. Although maybe they will check IDs better.

    Someone was taking the SAT on behalf of the applicant because they faked learning disabilities (with bribed assessment reports) and requested for double time (?) on the SAT which allowed the students to take the test in a hotel room where someone doctored the answers or took it on behalf of the student. There is nothing that can be done about these things unless there are strict rules about proctoring the extended-time tests at a central location with cameras and cracking down on fake LD assessments etc. This scam has so many facets that it needs to stay in the news for longer and make the public aware of the many ways in which the cheating was going on.

    The College Board, if it does not already, should have a database linking SAT scores with student addresses, test locations and the names of proctors and testees. A pattern of students often traveling a long distance to take a test with a specific proctor, with accommodations, and getting high scores would trigger an investigation.

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    #245138 - 03/28/19 05:26 AM Re: Ivy League Admissions. [Re: spaghetti]
    madeinuk Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/18/13
    Posts: 1448
    Loc: NJ
    Originally Posted By: spaghetti
    SAT already cancels scores quite liberally if they think it's statistically rare to have a certain improvement in scores. In my dd's testing, 3 in the room got 800 in math. Scores were delayed pending an investigation. They didn't say why they were investigating, just informed dd that due to irregularities (not sure that's the word), and investigation had been initiated and if determined legit, scores would come.

    Kids talked to each other and figured it out afterward. Good thing they were sitting no where near each other. They were worried it was about the proctor getting up and looking in the hallway briefly -- but apparently it wasn't that. However, dd knows plenty of kids who were cancelled due to too much improvement--- they can take it again for free to verify higher scores.

    With this aggressive policing, I'm really surprised the scandal happened at all.


    From what I read, the surrogate test taker was just that good! He could basically dial a score in to the highest possible score that wouldn’t raise any red flags based the child’s on prior scores

    This is why I think that Bostonian’s suggestion ought to be implemented. I am sure that surrogate test taking occurs more often than we know.


    Edited by madeinuk (03/28/19 05:28 AM)
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