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    Joined: Nov 2018
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    Yusani Offline OP
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    We have been on a long road with 2 of my 3 children. They are smart but struggle severely with executive function.

    Examples: They have completed homework in their folders that they forget to turn in. They do not do basic tasks like put their plates in the sink or brush their teeth without multiple prompts. When I tell them to go put on a shirt and pants it can take 15+ minutes because they stare off into space or twiddle a bit of thread or a Lego they found on the floor. My son stares off into space a lot and forgets where he is walking to while walking. They do not pay attention in class. My daughter can be severely scolded for behavior and 5 minutes later will be sitting alone singing happy Broadway songs. ADHD and Autism spectrum have been ruled out by the psychologist.

    On a recent WISC-V test, my son scored in the 99.5% for verbal and 99% for visual/spatial. His processing speed, however, was THIRTEENTH PERCENTILE.

    During the same time period, my daughter was assed by the psychologist and she gave false answers. For example, she said she was bullied in Kindergarten. When I asked her about it, she did not seem like she had been caught in a lie. She seemed more like "Well, I was supposed to put something on the paper so I did?" Like as if she understood it to be a creative writing assignment, but she is in the 6th grade so it is unclear to me how she couldn't have understood the intent of the testing.

    A thought occurred to me today that perhaps what we are experiencing is extreme imaginative overexcitability. Since my husband and I both work full time, the children have many extracurricular activities, and they struggle with executive function, we have resorted living a very structured, routine based lifestyle. Everything is scheduled and planned in advance to keep us afloat. But, it hasn't "fixed" anything. We are somewhere just over "survival" mode.

    My kids seem to live in their own heads. They seem unaware of what is going on around them. I have tried to get tasks accomplished with to do lists and organization. But, if their behavior is a result of imaginative overexcitability, have I been using the wrong tools? If you can't manage to put your dirty dishes in the sink because you keep getting derailed by visions of a robot you are going to build, should I instead try to make putting away dishes more engaging to keep them tuned in? And how on earth is that even possible because doing dishes is just... mundane. And so are many essential tasks.

    Should we reduce extracurricular activities (dance, music lessons, and musical theatre) so they have more time to spend in La La Land? Would that give them more energy and focus needed to complete the essential tasks?

    Any advice is welcomed. Is there a way I could find a specialized therapist who could help us with this?

    Thank you.

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    aeh Offline
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    Welcome!

    From what you have described, it may be that a little more unstructured time would allow both your children some breathing room for imagination. Honestly, they don't have to have -extreme- imaginative OE to benefit from unstructured time. Routine is important to individuals with executive function weaknesses, but so is flexibility. I'd first want to see how they present while engaged in their extracurriculars, though, as those are creative activities, that might be the only times during the week where their imaginative cravings actually are met. Do you see the same EF struggles when it comes to dance/music lessons and rehearsals?

    In class, the lack of focus may have multiple possible origins. They may simply be understimulated, by a mismatch between their personal instructional needs (zone of proximal development) and the low level of instruction provided. If the homework doesn't appear meaningful to them (due to the low instructional level, or being perceived as busy work), it may be insufficiently engaging for them to remember to do it or hand it in. At home, it may help to create visual checklists for routine activities, posted in the places they are most likely to see and do them. And FWIW, requiring multiple prompts for the daily activities you described is not out of the range of typical for this age.

    There is certainly value in making mundane activities into a game or a challenge. I know GT adults who think fondly back to making dishwashing into a game (maximizing efficiency by sorting into compact data packets! optimizing circulation of water around utensils by determining the best mixture of flatware of different shapes!).

    Some practical skills resources on EF:
    "Smart but Scattered" - Peg Dawson
    https://www.amazon.com/Smart-but-Scattered-Revolutionary-Executive/dp/1593854455

    HOPS: "Improving Children's Homework, Organization, and Planning Skills" - Joshua Langberg
    https://www.nasponline.org/books-and-products/products/books/titles/hops-for-parents


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    They sound like pretty normal children to me. When you talk to them about what they want to do or what they are thinking about when they stare off into space, what do they say? Do they have a clear understanding of their role and your expectations? You might be surprised about their interpretation.

    My brother worked out that to get a hug, you first did something to get in trouble. After mom disciplined him, she would then later give him a hug. She only figured out what was going on when trying to figure out why he was negotiating the punishment down to a pat on the head. Once she had that conversation, then they agreed he could just ask for a hug.

    Your kids probably also have a natural desire to be independent. Instead of putting their dishes in the sink, what if they put everyone's dishes in the sink? In other words, give them opportunities to be the 'grown up'. All of the reminders and task lists and gamification can reinforce the impression that your need is someone to remind to do things instead of someone to be 'grown up'. The kids want to satisfy your needs, so consciously or subconsciously they act in a way that lets you play the role they think you desire. Kids whose parents literally need their children to be grown up (due to illness or some other incapacity) are usually pretty good at taking care of essentials.

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    While your children sound like fairly typical children, I also see somethings you might want to consider.

    Originally Posted by Yusani
    They have completed homework in their folders that they forget to turn in. They do not do basic tasks like put their plates in the sink or brush their teeth without multiple prompts. When I tell them to go put on a shirt and pants it can take 15+ minutes because they stare off into space or twiddle a bit of thread or a Lego they found on the floor. My son stares off into space a lot and forgets where he is walking to while walking. They do not pay attention in class.

    While a lot of this may mirror completely "normal" behavior for children their age, it's possible there's something more going on, especially if you're seeing these signs repeatedly and all together. I'm not a professional, just a parent, but fwiw my ds who has dyspraxia had very similar behaviors when he was your children's age. He did a lot of staring off into space both at home and at school - but he wasn't daydreaming, he was putting off doing a task that was difficult for his brain to coordinate. You might want to observe what is actually happening when your son gets dressed - does he seem to be slow and clumsy at all, or does he seem to have no issues with it? Does he move slowly in general? Was he on the slow end of any of his early developmental motor milestones?

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    On a recent WISC-V test, my son scored in the 99.5% for verbal and 99% for visual/spatial. His processing speed, however, was THIRTEENTH PERCENTILE.

    Was there any additional testing done to determine why there was such a large gap in processing speed? My dyspraxic ds had a relatively large gap in processing speed vs other subtests on the WISC, not as large as your ds however, and a series of other tests was administered to attempt to determine what was at the root cause of the gap. There are any number of reasons that such a large difference in scores occurs - processing speed is timed, so if a child writes slowly or has fine motor issues the score can be impacted, if a child has vision issues they might struggle with either time or being able to complete the task correctly, if a child is tired and just doesn't try their score might be impacted. It's the follow-up series of tests that will help determine what's really going on, and that large of a gap in score most likely warrants at least some looking into to understand.

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    A thought occurred to me today that perhaps what we are experiencing is extreme imaginative overexcitability. Since my husband and I both work full time, the children have many extracurricular activities, and they struggle with executive function, we have resorted living a very structured, routine based lifestyle. Everything is scheduled and planned in advance to keep us afloat. But, it hasn't "fixed" anything. We are somewhere just over "survival" mode.

    Structure is something that was necessary for my dyspraxic ds needed as a coping mechanism before he was diagnosed. He still needs structure much more than a typical kid, but it's easier to make structure work for kids who need some kind of help when you know what the child actually needs, and you can set up remediation/support/etc to focus where it's truly needed.

    I'm not much of a fan of the concept of "overexcitabilities" so you can take what I say with a grain of salt, but fwiw, so much of what you said sounds very familiar to me, as the parent of a 2e child. You also noted your child has been evaluated for ADHD and autism but doesn't fit either diagnosis - fwiw, there are many overlapping symptoms and behvaiors shared by ADHD, autism and dyspraxia.

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    doing dishes is just... mundane.

    I hate doing dishes. There's no shame in that lol! I think most of us hate it. But... I wouldn't automatically assume that the reason your kids aren't doing dishes or other routine mundane boring-as-can-be and annoying-as-can-be chores is simply because they're human and don't want to. It's really and truly possible for some kids to be over-the-top intelligent in some areas and still struggle with the brain connections needed to perform tasks that become automatic for the rest of us early on. If the situation is one where you're having to tell your kids over and over again to do the dishes, and then they eventually just do it, and get it done without a lot of help, that sounds like a typical kid their age. If instead, they just never get to it, or they seem to move extremely slow when they are cleaning them, or they're a bit clumsier than you might expect another child their age to be, or if they seem quiet and "lost in their thoughts" while working on them, they might be struggling with the how-to do it piece of the task.



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    Is there a way I could find a specialized therapist who could help us with this?

    I'm not sure you need a specialized therapist or perhaps more testing to determine what type of help is needed (if any). Did the WISC testing your kids have involve any further testing to tease out what caused the gaps in subtest scores, or was it WISC only testing? Was there any achievement testing, and if so, were there achievement scores consistent with what you'd expect from the high WISC scores?

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

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    My brother staring off into space and taking forever to get ready turned out to most likely be early signs of epilepsy that manifested later. So there can be a lot of different reasons behind behavior. I try to make a distinction between behaviors that are annoying and ones that are potentially harmful. And personally I also spend a lot of time trying to keep my imagination in check.


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