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    KILH Offline OP
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    Hello,

    I am from the UK and am very new to all this. Have recently had DD who is 10 assessed as I was mostly concerned about her attitude towards school. She constantly states she hates school as it is boring thinks a lot of the tasks are pointless and detests homework as it is just repeating what she has learnt at school etc. I think she fits a lot of the characteristics of a gifted learner, has a lot of sensitivities and is definitely a bit quirky.

    Her FSIQ came out at 91, however sub test scores ranged from having an age equivalent of 6 years 2 months (digit span) to over 16 years 10 months (picture span). Psychologist noted some language reasoning strength and obvious visual memory strength.

    When I asked about the discrepancy in the WMI he just stated this was not common. Can anyone tell me The significance of such a discrepancy in WMI and the significance of having such a strong visual memory? Would she be a gifted visual spatial learner/2e? Psych also mentioned during verbal feedback that he felt she wasn�t really applying herself and was a bit emotionally reserved.

    The other thing that I wasn�t sure of is that she had significant discrepancies between her predicted achievement and her actual achievement on the WIAT-III. So it actually looks like she is over achieving. I am wondering if this is because the WISC couldn�t accurately measure her ability? Thank you in advance for any advice and wisdom it will be greatly appreciated as I still feel I�m trying to get to grips with all this.

    KILH xx

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    aeh Offline
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    Welcome! So sorry we didn't see this hiding in the new posts.

    Your DD certainly sounds like she has very diverse learning skills. There isn't enough information in what you've listed to suggest whether she is GT of any description. Perhaps if you are willing to share the subtest scores from the WISC and the WIAT subtest scores, it may be easier to offer some feedback. (If not comfortable posting publicly, feel free to pm me, and we can discuss further.)

    Typically, apparent overachievement does indicate low assessment of ability, but it depends a bit on what type of achievement it is, and how one is determining that it is significantly discrepant.


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    KILH, just to let you know, aeh is our resident expert on IQ testing, and you can feel safe talking to her privately about your scores even if you don't want to post them publicly. She does not work for Davidson; she's just an expert who is kind enough to stay around and help us all. smile

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    KILH Offline OP
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    Hello,

    Thank you for your replies her results are as follows:

    WISC-V

    VCI 108 70%
    Similarities 13
    Vocab 10

    VSI 89 23%
    Block design 8
    Visual Puzzles 8

    FRI 88 21%
    Matrix 8
    Figure Weights 8

    WMI 97 42%
    Digit Span 5
    Picture Span 14

    PSI 89 23%
    Coding 9
    Symbol search 7

    FSIQ 91

    WIAT-III

    Word Reading 114 82%
    Reading Comp 102 55%
    Decoding 117 87%

    Numeracy 90 25%
    Maths Problem Solving 105 63%

    Spelling 10 73%

    I can understand her scores are not in the gifted range but to be honest I thought her overall IQ would be higher as her teacher advises that academically she would be at the top of her class. Teacher says she doesn�t stand out as exceptional but they have noticed recently some challenging behaviour, although she never pushes it to the point of getting in trouble. They feel she plays mind games with the teacher and at times her class mates. The subjects she likes at school are computing and art. She says art makes her angry though as she basically can�t produce what she wants to. At home she can be challenging at times has angry outbursts and I feel she has very good verbal skills, you definitely don�t want to get into a debate with her!!!

    Since I last posted we have had an initial appointment with an optometrist who noticed a couple of issues so D has now been referred for a vision therapy appointment. Although we don�t have a diagnosis yet I�m thinking about some kind of visual processing issue and I�m guessing if something like that could have led to depressed WISC scores.

    Thank you!

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    KILH Offline OP
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    What I�m also not sure about is that her picture span score was 14 but I�m not sure why it has this as a number as she hit the ceiling in this part of the test so effectively her age equivalent was given as somewhere over 16years and 10months. I have seen on this forum higher scores than 14 so I�m not sure I understand how her picture span score was determined??

    Thanks

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    aeh Offline
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    Overall, she does have scores that suggest Average ability, both cognitively and academically. I would not describe her WIAT-III as overachievement, but as consistent with her verbal cognition, which is Average, approaching High Average (verbal reasoning is High Average (equivalent to 110s), so we could reasonably suggest that this is the optimal estimate of her cognition, validating your sense that she presents as higher than the FSIQ obtained). (BTW, I assume that spelling score is actually 109, and not 10.) She does present with personal weaknesses in visual spatial and fluid reasoning domains, and likely with specific aspects of working memory, all of which appear to be best estimated in the Low Average range. If there are vision or visual processing issues, these scores may change at some point in the future, with effective intervention. To be fair, though, my experience with the FR subtests is that vision doesn't affect them quite as much as it does the VS subtests. What I do find associated with lower FR is the rigidity, quirkiness, sensitivities, and sometimes challenging behavior that you are reporting; this may be conceptualized in the context of nonverbal learning disabilities.

    WRT Picture Span, I should note first that hitting the ceiling in age-equivalents is not the same as hitting the ceiling of the subtest, especially at this age, which is roughly in the middle of the age span of the test. Actually, before that, I should note that age- and grade-equivalents are not a recommended measure for interpreting this instrument (or most psychoeducational/neuropsychological instruments, really). The scaled and standard scores are what the instrument is designed to interpret. This scaled score is properly considered the Very High (not quite GT) range. Secondly, there are several key differences between DS and PS, any one of which could result in this kind of split. DS is auditory, and PS is visual. DS is symbolic, while PS uses concrete-meaningful images. DS includes three conditions: forward, backward, and in sequence. PS has only the forward condition. I can speculate on several possible reasons for the difference on this data set, including: perhaps your DC does better with remembering meaningful information than random symbols; her rote memory (forward) may be much stronger than her manipulation/working memory (backward and sequencing); she may have better visual memory than auditory memory (despite verbal performance stronger than visual spatial thinking). Without additional context, I can't tell you which of these is most likely.

    As to her teacher's reports: her decoding skills would place her in the top reading group in most average-sized classrooms, but her comprehension skills are quite consistent with average verbal cognition. This lines up well with being in the top of her class, but not standing out as exceptional. The challenging behavior very well could be related to the disparity between Average to High Average verbal cognition and Low Average visual performance (whether for perceptual or visual reasons). Numerical Operations is in the low end of the Average range, which would not place her in the top end of the class in a typical classroom, but in a middle to lower group. This may be related to the relative weaknesses in working memory, which is an important contributor to accurate math computations. On the other hand, her math applications/word problems are solidly Average, which is probably keeping her afloat in math. I'm not surprised art makes her angry, given her profile of visual relative weakness. At some point in the next few years, as math changes from arithmetic to abstract problem solving, she may begin to find math increasingly frustrating as well, especially if her fact fluency (not assessed/reported here) is lower than her computational skills. I'm guessing she's in fourth grade, which is often about when that transition begins. This may also be feeding her current difficult school experience.

    Although her current data do not necessarily indicate a learning disability, I would keep a close eye on her math achievement moving forward, as well as her coping skills for frustration tolerance and social perception, as these are all risk areas associated with lowered visual-perceptual and nonverbal fluid reasoning skills.


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    Originally Posted by aeh
    What I do find associated with lower FR is the rigidity, quirkiness, sensitivities, and sometimes challenging behavior that you are reporting; this may be conceptualized in the context of nonverbal learning disabilities.

    My apologies to the OP if this sidetracks, but a question to aeh. I always got the impression that NVLD was associated with weaknesses in the VS part of the old Perceptual Reasoning measure in the WISC-IV, as opposed to the fluid reasoning measures (but descriptions did tend to be fuzzy). Does NVLD still associate the same way with low FRI now that visual-spatial has been moved to a separate measure?

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    aeh Offline
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    So the complication with NVLD is that it is defined more by what it isn't than by what it is--it's not a language-based learning disability (hence nonverbal). Not-language could mean visual spatial skills, and it could also mean nonverbal reasoning (which is much of the FRI). My observation with NVLD is that the long-term deficit academically typically ends up in higher-level math--which could be due to challenges in visualizing it, or challenges in conceptualizing it.

    Yes, the classic NVLD is visual spatial in nature, but for whatever reason (visual spatial or nonverbal reasoning), many people who could be given the NVLD descriptor are rigid/rule-bound, quirky, and have challenges with social perception and emotional regulation, which is why one of the ongoing discussions for years has been what the distinction between NVLD and high-functioning ASD is.

    In terms of data sets associating NVLD one way or the other, I don't know that there is a good research base on that topic with the WISC-V at this moment.


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    KILH Offline OP
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    Hello,

    Thank you so much for your replies, they are very relevant. It is interesting that you mentioned NVLD as it has been something that I thought about. How ever what threw me off that was that I read it was usually associated with good auditory memory, the opposite in D�s case, but as you mentioned not much reasearch in the area. I don�t find her particularly rigid or rule bound and I actually think she has very good social perception. She understands humour and sarcasm and would go as far to say she relishes a witty conversation.

    She does however have issues with emotional regulation and in the last year has been having quite a few angry outbursts and this is usually a result of her trying to push the boundaries at home, so possibly some oppositional behaviour. She is very sensitive to criticism and I actually think she is perfectionist and I think all this school is rubbish and boring talk is actually a cover as I think she probably cares very much about school but is frustrated that she can�t perform at the level she wants to.

    Interestingly for about a year math has been a source of frustration for her and this is when I started to see a change in her behaviour. At the beginning of last year she became very stressed about math saying she was rubbish at it etc. When I talked to the teacher she said she did it notice any issue with maths and thought it was a confidence issue so moved her down a math group to boost confidence. My D was deveatated by this, said it was the most embarrassing thing to happen in her life but refused to let me talk to the teacher about it as she didn�t want to hurt her feelings. As mentioned this could be related to working memory weakness but I have also read it�s usually the first subject you see issues with in NVLD.

    I guess my plan is to see how vision therapy goes. It does appear that it can make a significant difference to IQ scores and may be enough to level things of enough to reduce some of the frustration. I am then thinking it may be a good idea to get a full Neuropsych evaluation to rule out or confirm other difficulties also!

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    aeh Offline
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    Actually, it's not necessarily good auditory memory that one sees, but good language memory, which is not what is assessed by Digit Span. In fact, her strength in Picture Span may be more consistent with good language memory, as the images involved can be encoded as language much more readily than the numbers in DS can. A better indicator of her listening memory vis a vis NVLD would be a sentence or word list repetition task vs a spatial span task.

    I mention rigidity because sometimes the emotional dysregulation, sensitivity to criticism, perfectionism, oppositional behavior, etc. are actually manifestations of anxiety fed by weaknesses in mental flexibility. AKA, rigidity. I would agree with your sense that her negative talk masks frustration. Your observation that the onset of the behaviors was coincident with math challenges is consistent with NVLD.

    You have some thoughtful plans in train, and sound like you have a good sense of the feelings and motivations that underlie your DD's behavior. Keep us posted on how the vision therapy and other interventions develop.


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