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    #244585 12/30/18 03:44 PM
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    This question is not about my kids, but about me. We played a game called Q-bitz the other day that starkly highlighted an area of terrible weakness for me. In this game, you are given cubes with designs on them and cards with designs and have to reproduce the designs. I did sort of okay in the first two rounds where you can see the cards while recreating the pattern (though much worse than my son and husband), but in the last round, you look at the card for 10 seconds, then must recreate the design from memory. I could not do this AT ALL. I was lucky to get 2 or 3 cubes correct (i actually scored better placing cubes at random). I suspect this is why I have virtually no sense of direction and certain other big holes in my spatial skills. I am curious what this issue is and if I would be likely to have an LD or something like one if tested today. Here is a look at Q-Bitz: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/2642211/qbitz (The game is fun, but I am truly bad at it! Neither of my kids has this issue, fortunately for them.)

    ultramarina #244586 12/30/18 06:32 PM
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    Well you definitely do not want to try block design on any of the Wechslers, then, because this is essentially the same cognitive skill, with visual memory layered on top of it! I can think of several other measures you'd likely have difficulty with, too, all of which have something to do with visual processing or visual memory. It appears that Q-bitz exposes a visual-spatial problem-solving weakness, with particular vulnerabilities when you have to encode/store the visual design. Typically, I expect learning challenges in mathematics, especially geometry, or in written expression (especially mechanics/handwriting/organization).

    So yeah, you might test out with an LD if comprehensively evaluated. You seem pretty high functioning to me, though, so I expect you have some good compensatory strategies!


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    ultramarina #244589 12/31/18 05:27 AM
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    My immediate thought was to point you to the thread on aphantasia, but I see when I hunt it down that you already commented at the time that you didn't think it applied. Might be worth another look, though. And if you google, there's a ton of info out now that didn't exist at the time:
    http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....9849/Re_Aphantasia_How_to_be_blind_.html

    That thread was a revelation for me. I'd always thought my family were extreme off-the-charts visual spatial (and they are), but that I was just "normal" in comparison. That article started a conversation that made me realize I have no "mind's eye". At all. None whatsoever. It explains so. much.

    "I didn't think you meant it literally!" Yup.

    I do believe that the guy who wrote the original post cited above is dealing with a range of additional issues - IIRC correctly, he had problems with memory, sound and some other things which don't seem to be an inherent part of aphantasia. In my own case and most others, the term is usually used to describe just that missing mind's eye piece.

    We never tried the Q-bitz version where you turn down the card; I imagine my results would be similar to yours. Playing with cards up with hyper VS-son, I found we had diametrically opposed approaches. I would look at the card, figure out the first cube needed, describe it in my head (e.g. "white triangle, apex in top right corner"), place cube, and then go back to the card to figure out the second cube, etc all the way through. No real sense of the overall design. DS would stare at the card, memorize the picture, the re-create it as a whole, usually without ever looking at the card again. I was actually often faster than him (he has slow processing and fine motor issues to boot) - but his approach could be scaled up to almost any level of complexity, mine could not.





    ultramarina #244590 12/31/18 06:01 AM
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    aeh, you are bringing to mind some questions I've been long meaning to ask, if you don't mind sharing your wisdom a little further on some of the issues you raise above.

    DD12 (dyslexic, inattentive ADHD, probably dysgraphic) has challenges in math, both in facts retrieval but also in grasping concepts, like what *is* multiplication or division, even when we worked on such things in a variety of hands-on and visual ways. She seems to have no number sense. For instance, in grade 5, given 48 divided by 12 and the choices of either (a) 44 or (b) 4, she didn't have the faintest awareness that 44 ought to be easily eliminated as a possibility.

    She's been doing Jump Math for the last 2 years (yeah!) which is wonderfully clear and coherent and linear (and minimizes writing) and now does very well, but I worry she still lacks number sense and that larger conceptual understanding, even though she's become quite proficient with the procedurals. (For myself, I always found school math easy, including grade 13/ university calculus. Fell apart in physics, though - in retrospect, anything that required visualizing and problem-solving rather than simply applying known procedures. I'm still faster than DS in basic algebra/ computations - but he has the complex AoPS-type problems solved before I've even finished reading them, and it then takes 10 minutes and several whiteboards to get me to grasp what he's done, in his head).

    I struggle with directions (I have to memorize everything like a list of facts, which I don't tend to retain well over time - there's no map in my head or picture of landmarks in their relative positions). DD, however, is in a whole other category: she can quite literally get lost walking around the block, and commonly steps out the door and heads off in the opposite direction as needed.

    And yet - her block design at age 8 (old WISC, only VS score) was 98th. She also claims to be able to picture rich scenes in her head (if not rotate and manipulate objects like her brother/ father).

    So I have long wondered how to understand/ assess the gaps/ support/ remediate this weird mix of strength and extreme holes in her VS and math skills, and to figure out what she will need as she heads soon to high school.

    And finally, I am intrigued by your comment that poor VS correlates to challenges in written expression (my strength) - how does VS typically impact writing?

    Thanks so much as always, oh font of all knowledge! And I hope you - and everyone - are finding much joy with their families these holidays.

    ultramarina #244593 12/31/18 09:31 AM
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    Platypus, the connection between VS and writing is mainly in mechanics, and the downstream effects of mechanics on fluency. Some individuals with VS weaknesses struggle with the visual-symbolic aspects of written language (which may affect reading as well as writing). In many, they present early on as dyslexic, but once they attain fluent reading, their language relative strengths come to the fore, and they may even become above average readers (as academic reading switches from learning-to-read to reading-to-learn, it becomes a language task, with less of a spatial component). But writing has more complex visual spatial demands than reading does, which can cause writing problems to linger even after access to text is not a concern. In an individual with language strengths, the long-term writing deficits will eventually (for most adults) be resolved by assistive technology (aka, normal wordprocessing supports), which reduces the barriers to functional handwriting, spelling, and punctuation to negligible, in all but the most severe cases.

    For your DD, she may have a profile I have seen a few times, which combines visual spatial strengths with quantitative reasoning weaknesses. Most of the time, VS and QR group more together than not (which is why the old Wechslers had the Perceptual Reasoning Index/Perceptual Organization Index/Performance IQ grouping, which lumped VS, Fluid Reasoning, and sometimes QR together), but sometimes they don't (hence the revised Wechslers, which separate VS from FR, and offer an optional QR). I had a student not long ago whose VS scored above the 99.9th %ile (the highest score I have ever seen on the VSI in an examinee), but had totally average fluid and quantitative reasoning. Actually, this student has some other similarities to your DD--also dyslexic and dysgraphic, with mild ADHD, however, they've had more success with math development--though they don't always display those skills effectively in class. I would suggest that your DD may benefit from continuing to use visual math strategies, in addition to the success she's had with JumpMath, to begin making some connections between her visual strengths and her math vulnerabilities. Preferably through fun, discovery activities. There are some nice apps and games curated here by youcubed, including resources that relate to algebra: https://www.youcubed.org/resource/apps-games/

    It sounds like your DD, based on the combination of high BD, picturing rich scenes, but not mental (or, apparently, navigational) 3D manipulation, may work better with meaningful or contextualized visual materials than with abstract visual. (Do you recall, by any chance, how she did on matrix reasoning?) It may be that she would do better combining some kind of narrative or storyline with the visual (a mental or literal video, in other words). Have you tried Times Tales for math facts?

    And I have to admit that I'm not strong with directions, either. One of my entertainments (pre GPS!) used to be trying to give verbal directions to my highly VS friend over the phone. Or attempting to make heads or tales of a quick sketch of directions somewhere provided to me by the same friend. (Even better was trying to convey directions verbally to the same friend based on a napkin sketch left by my even more VS SO. A verbal person trying to interpret and translate visual directions into words so that a visual person could translate them back into visuals.) Also, I have trouble following directions backwards (the road looks different from the other direction). I find that I do best with directions when I tag them to meaningful landmarks--not just objects or images, but places that have a story attached to them. Though it makes me a terrible giver of directions. (Since you weren't there that time there was a fender bender at that intersection, nor do you remember the tree with the odd branch shaped like a backwards "L", with a big hornet's nest attached to it--which has since fallen down in a windstorm.)

    All the best to you and your family as well!


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    ultramarina #244595 12/31/18 03:05 PM
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    Quote
    Typically, I expect learning challenges in mathematics, especially geometry, or in written expression (especially mechanics/handwriting/organization).

    Math was an area of relative weakness for me in school, but my SAT score was still around 80th percentile. As to written expression, I am a professional writer! I scored an 800 on the English achievement test (not the verbal SAT--different test--but I also did very well on the verbal SAT). So, that part does not apply. Interesting. However, as I've probably posted about before, I took many year to learn right from left, have no "mental map" of places, have a lot of difficulty rotating objects in space, and have various other problems with spatial tasks and spatial memory.

    Quote
    I would look at the card, figure out the first cube needed, describe it in my head (e.g. "white triangle, apex in top right corner"), place cube, and then go back to the card to figure out the second cube, etc all the way through. No real sense of the overall design

    Yes, this is exactly how I did it. I instinctively recognized it as the type of compensatory strategy I've been using all my life. I wasn't all that slow at it, but I knew it was not really how I was "supposed to" do it. I do a lot of things this way--describe it in my head verbally.

    ultramarina #244609 01/03/19 04:33 AM
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    As always, aeh, you are an amazing guide to the weird world of our brains and behaviour. Thank you for always making so much time for us!

    And yes, of course you are right smile , her fluid reasoning was dead average (50th MR, 63rd PC). I've often wondered what a more nuanced range of VS measures would show - I assume that BD notwithstanding, *something* would reflect her tendency to get lost on the way to the bathroom. I'm guessing it would take more than the second measure on the new WISC, though? She's always felt rather NVLD-ish, dyslexia notwithstanding.

    And yes, meaningful context matters a ton for her memory. We have a good range of memory measures, and they go up dramatically when there's story vs. meaningless data to remember (clearly seen in real life too - her recall of which monster is coming up and who kills it, exactly how, in every single chapter of Rick Riordan is quite astounding).

    The way humans mix and merge our cognitive strengths and weaknesses really is extraordinary to contemplate. For much of my family, writing is a barrier to thinking. For me, it is necessary to write *in order to think* - sometimes I suspect my brain is located in my fingertips, because I don't know what it's doing until I see it my conclusions come out on screen/ paper. And mom says I came out of the womb with a book already in hand. And yet, I can't even picture the classic green triangle in my head, let alone contemplate rotating it! The things my family can do in their heads leave me awed.

    ultramarina #244619 01/04/19 02:30 PM
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    Originally Posted by ultramarina
    Quote
    I would look at the card, figure out the first cube needed, describe it in my head (e.g. "white triangle, apex in top right corner"), place cube, and then go back to the card to figure out the second cube, etc all the way through. No real sense of the overall design

    Yes, this is exactly how I did it. I instinctively recognized it as the type of compensatory strategy I've been using all my life. I wasn't all that slow at it, but I knew it was not really how I was "supposed to" do it. I do a lot of things this way--describe it in my head verbally.

    This compensatory strategy prompts me to wonder whether this might be related to aphantasia?
    (Hat tip to Platypus101 who thought of this much earlier.)
    smile


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