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    #246159 - 10/02/19 12:55 PM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: philly103]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3285
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: philly103
    Speaking just for myself and my child - playing a musical instrument has moved down the list, playing the right sports has moved up - squash, lacrosse, water polo, crew, etc.


    You may wish to focus on increasing your income instead, unless you're already able to afford $75,000 annually (I'm not asking --- I'm just reporting facts about preferences). The evidence shows that admissions are very heavily biased toward applicants from wealthy families.

    See this excellent article in the NY Times. Quotes:

    Quote:
    The most selective colleges in America were the least socioeconomically diverse. ... At “Ivy plus” colleges ,... more than two-thirds of undergraduates, on average, came from families in the top income quintile, and fewer than 4 percent of students grew up in the bottom income quintile. At the very most selective colleges, low-income students were even more of an endangered species; at Yale, for example, Chetty found that just 2.1 percent of the student body came from the bottom fifth of the income distribution.


    Quote:
    If you work in admissions at a place like Trinity was before Pérez arrived, SAT scores can provide a convenient justification for admitting the kind of students you might feel compelled to accept because they can pay full tuition. It’s hard to feel good about choosing an academically undeserving rich kid over a striving and ambitious poor kid with better high school grades.



    Quote:
    “Few enrollment-management people will admit this publicly, but we’re all sort of in the same boat,” Boeckenstedt told me when I visited him in his office at DePaul in 2017. “Admissions for us is not a matter of turning down students we’d like to admit. It’s a matter of admitting students we’d like to turn down.”



    AND

    Quote:
    In fact, Boeckenstedt’s chart shows an almost perfect correlation between institutional selectivity and students’ average family income, a steady, unwavering diagonal line slicing through the graph. With only a few exceptions, every American college follows the same pattern.

    There is a popular and persistent image of college admissions in which diversity-obsessed universities are using affirmative action to deny spaces to academically talented affluent students while admitting low-income students with lower ability in their place. Boeckenstedt says the opposite is closer to the truth.



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    #246160 - 10/02/19 01:43 PM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Val]
    philly103 Online   content
    Member

    Registered: 03/02/17
    Posts: 68
    Originally Posted By: Val
    You may wish to focus on increasing your income instead, unless you're already able to afford $75,000 annually (I'm not asking --- I'm just reporting facts about preferences). The evidence shows that admissions are very heavily biased toward applicants from wealthy families.

    See this excellent article in the NY Times. Quotes:

    Quote:
    The most selective colleges in America were the least socioeconomically diverse. ... At “Ivy plus” colleges ,... more than two-thirds of undergraduates, on average, came from families in the top income quintile, and fewer than 4 percent of students grew up in the bottom income quintile. At the very most selective colleges, low-income students were even more of an endangered species; at Yale, for example, Chetty found that just 2.1 percent of the student body came from the bottom fifth of the income distribution.


    Quote:
    If you work in admissions at a place like Trinity was before Pérez arrived, SAT scores can provide a convenient justification for admitting the kind of students you might feel compelled to accept because they can pay full tuition. It’s hard to feel good about choosing an academically undeserving rich kid over a striving and ambitious poor kid with better high school grades.



    Quote:
    “Few enrollment-management people will admit this publicly, but we’re all sort of in the same boat,” Boeckenstedt told me when I visited him in his office at DePaul in 2017. “Admissions for us is not a matter of turning down students we’d like to admit. It’s a matter of admitting students we’d like to turn down.”



    AND

    Quote:
    In fact, Boeckenstedt’s chart shows an almost perfect correlation between institutional selectivity and students’ average family income, a steady, unwavering diagonal line slicing through the graph. With only a few exceptions, every American college follows the same pattern.

    There is a popular and persistent image of college admissions in which diversity-obsessed universities are using affirmative action to deny spaces to academically talented affluent students while admitting low-income students with lower ability in their place. Boeckenstedt says the opposite is closer to the truth.




    Yeah, I know. The data out there should be pretty disheartening to any family with a middle class income.

    It's interesting that the things like legacies, sports, donors and children of faculty are all also heavily correlated with higher incomes as well.

    I think that many of the Ivies have moved to free tuition for families at $65k. And some variant of 10% of their income for families making more than that but less than $100k, $150k, $200k depending on the school.

    But, in line with what you said, it's unlikely that a kid is going to be able to rise to the highest level of achievement in any of Harvard's ratings criteria without significant parental investment along the way.

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    #246161 - 10/02/19 03:19 PM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Val]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2592
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: Val
    Quote:
    In fact, Boeckenstedt’s chart shows an almost perfect correlation between institutional selectivity and students’ average family income, a steady, unwavering diagonal line slicing through the graph. With only a few exceptions, every American college follows the same pattern.

    SAT scores of children, like IQ, are positively correlated to parental income. If you take two children, one from a family with income of $50K and another from a family with income of $200K, maybe there is only a 55-60% chance that the child from the richer family has a higher SAT score. But if you randomly select 1000 children each from families across the country with incomes of $45K-$55K and $180K-$220K, the average SAT score and IQ of the children from the richer families will almost always be higher. Since colleges enroll thousands of students, one should expect that higher-SAT schools have students from richer families.

    Top
    #246167 - 10/03/19 09:33 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3285
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    SAT scores of children, like IQ, are positively correlated to parental income. If you take two children, one from a family with income of $50K and another from a family with income of $200K, maybe there is only a 55-60% chance that the child from the richer family has a higher SAT score. But if you randomly select 1000 children each from families across the country with incomes of $45K-$55K and $180K-$220K, the average SAT score and IQ of the children from the richer families will almost always be higher. Since colleges enroll thousands of students, one should expect that higher-SAT schools have students from richer families.


    The story debunks the myth that wealthy people are brighter as an effect of wealth and test prep (as if the college admission scandal wasn't enough):

    Quote:
    At Trinity, Pérez’s predecessors had been able to capitalize on a pattern that admissions officers say they often see: At expensive prep schools, even students close to the bottom of the class usually have above-average SAT scores, mostly because they have access to high-octane test-prep classes and tutors.

    “O.K., you’re not motivated, you’re doing the minimum at your high school,” Pérez explained, describing the students Trinity used to admit in droves. “You have not worked as hard as your peers. But you did the test prep, and you learned how to play the SAT game.”


    Quote:
    But if the rich student you’re admitting has a higher SAT score than the poor student you’re rejecting, you can tell yourself that your decision was based on “college readiness” rather than ability to pay.

    The problem is, rich kids who aren’t motivated to work hard and get good grades in high school often aren’t college-ready, however inflated their SAT scores may be.





    Top
    #246168 - 10/03/19 04:44 PM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Val]
    Wren Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1472
    Originally Posted By: Val

    An article from the Harvard Crimson says that legacy admissions are five times as high as non-legacy admits: Harvard Crimson


    This is bizarre. What does this even mean? That the percentage of legacies getting in from the pool of legacies applying is 5 times the amount of non legacies getting in from the pool applying? So there is a good chance that out of the 50000 applying many are not so great candidates. Not all of those 50K applying have great SAT scores or great anything. They just apply. Also, the rate of athletes applying and getting in is approx 70%, I heard. Don't quote me. And JudAU's heresay is similar to what my DH experienced when he was fundraising from his class. Who applied, who got in. How much some people paid -- millions and their kid did not get in. Even reading college confidential. There were legacies that did not get in and were surprised. They thought their scores and grades were good. I also think that when and who is reading your app makes a difference. Are you on the bottom of a pile, nearing the end of an evening? Why the essay seems to make such a difference. You wake the person up.

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    #246170 - 10/03/19 06:03 PM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Wren]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3285
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    This is bizarre. What does this even mean?


    It’s pretty basic arithmetic, actually:

    Quote:
    Over 33 percent of legacy applicants—Harvard hopefuls with at least one parent who graduated from the College or Radcliffe—gained admission to the Classes of 2014 through 2019...

    the preference given to legacy students disproportionately favors white students.

    In his filings, he claimed more than 21.5 percent of white admitted students are also legacy admits. Around 6.96 percent of Hispanic admits, 6.63 percent of Asian-American admits, and 4.79 percent of African-American admits were students with legacy status...


    Quote:
    But Harvard has not disputed the preference given to legacy students.


    You guys are trying to argue against a point that Harvard concedes openly. Plus, Harvard’s overall acceptance rate in 2016 was 6%, meaning essentially no one but white students were given a preference (and African-Americans were given an anti-preference).

    If you want to explore why legacy students among your acquaintances with good scores and grades were rejected, you could always take a poll comparing legacy acceptance and rejection according to race, request for financial aid, and how much their parents had donated.


    Edited by Val (10/03/19 06:11 PM)
    Edit Reason: Clarity

    Top
    #246171 - 10/03/19 06:18 PM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Val]
    madeinuk Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/18/13
    Posts: 1440
    Loc: NJ
    Originally Posted By: Val
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    SAT scores of children, like IQ, are positively correlated to parental income. If you take two children, one from a family with income of $50K and another from a family with income of $200K, maybe there is only a 55-60% chance that the child from the richer family has a higher SAT score. But if you randomly select 1000 children each from families across the country with incomes of $45K-$55K and $180K-$220K, the average SAT score and IQ of the children from the richer families will almost always be higher. Since colleges enroll thousands of students, one should expect that higher-SAT schools have students from richer families.


    The story debunks the myth that wealthy people are brighter as an effect of wealth and test prep (as if the college admission scandal wasn't enough):

    Quote:
    At Trinity, Pérez’s predecessors had been able to capitalize on a pattern that admissions officers say they often see: At expensive prep schools, even students close to the bottom of the class usually have above-average SAT scores, mostly because they have access to high-octane test-prep classes and tutors.

    “O.K., you’re not motivated, you’re doing the minimum at your high school,” Pérez explained, describing the students Trinity used to admit in droves. “You have not worked as hard as your peers. But you did the test prep, and you learned how to play the SAT game.”


    Quote:
    But if the rich student you’re admitting has a higher SAT score than the poor student you’re rejecting, you can tell yourself that your decision was based on “college readiness” rather than ability to pay.

    The problem is, rich kids who aren’t motivated to work hard and get good grades in high school often aren’t college-ready, however inflated their SAT scores may be.






    This and too many similar articles conflate wealth with earned income.

    Actual multi-generational wealth confers genuine advantages and privileges that folks who only have a high earned income can only dream of.

    Personally, I have had it up to my back teeth with hearing the income==wealth fallacy.

    Plus college costs and taxes ensure that the 'only high income' people (the middle class) stay in their place.

    The gullibility of most, even on this board itself, not to see through this shell game actually astounds me.
    _________________________
    Become what you are

    Top
    #246172 - 10/03/19 07:50 PM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: madeinuk]
    philly103 Online   content
    Member

    Registered: 03/02/17
    Posts: 68
    Originally Posted By: madeinuk
    This and too many similar articles conflate wealth with earned income.

    Actual multi-generational wealth confers genuine advantages and privileges that folks who only have a high earned income can only dream of.

    Personally, I have had it up to my back teeth with hearing the income==wealth fallacy.

    Plus college costs and taxes ensure that the 'only high income' people (the middle class) stay in their place.

    The gullibility of most, even on this board itself, not to see through this shell game actually astounds me.


    Even if you're not conflating wealth with income, high income confers genuine advantages and privileges that people who only have a median income can only dream of.

    If one can see the advantages presented by multi-generational wealth, one can equally see the advantages presented by high income.

    Quality of education either in terms of private schools or in terms of more expensive homes in better school districts being a noted example that doesn't require generational wealth for advantage.

    Scope and scale of extracurricular activities is another.

    The advantages of income are just as prevalent and impactful as the advantages of generational wealth.

    Top
    #246173 - 10/04/19 08:45 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: philly103]
    Thomas Percy Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/18/12
    Posts: 203
    It is not just income and wealth. It is also class. That is why wealth needs to be multi-generational.

    http://bostonreview.net/class-inequality-law-justice/richard-ford-harvard-ruling-misses-point

    Top
    #246177 - 10/04/19 02:09 PM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    Wren Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1472
    I have known white students with double legacy, where the parents donated millions and the kid got rejected. I have known parents, double legacy, got the first 2 in and the 3rd got rejected, though she had comparable scores with the first, but the environment got more competitive. These were big, steady donors. If the scores don't line up, it doesn't matter if you donate -- probably a half billion will get you admission, or if you are double legacy. They told the Kennedys not to let John John apply because they didn't want to reject him, hence he went to Brown. I do not know why the people on this board think it is so easy for legacy? I saw first admit AA students get into Harvard with 1420 SAT scores. You read through and you can see a bunch. First time college. They are shocked they got in. So if the word is out that first time AA applicants can get in with lower scores, how many apply? They will get a full ride since they probably come from lower income. I would apply. Out of about 900 EA, about 350 are legacy, 250 athletes. And then you have some Dean's list of faculty etc. And it makes sense that a larger portion of legacy admits are going to be white. Historically Harvard has been a white male school. Then they were letting in some others. But historically it was not diverse. So why is it a surprise that 21 % of white admits were legacy? I know of one AA girl, with perfect SAT math scores, double legacy Harvard. Got in. But also got in everywhere else. Because she was an AA girl with perfect SAT math scores. She opted for MIT. Is a white girl with perfect SAT math scores going to get in everywhere she applies? And a good chance an asian girl with perfect math scores has even a harder time getting into her choice.

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