Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links
DITD Logo

Learn about the Davidson Academy’s online campus for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S.

The Davidson Institute for Talent Development is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Davidson Fellows Scholarship
  • Davidson Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute
  • DITD FaceBook   DITD Twitter   DITD YouTube
    The Davidson Institute is on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube!

    How gifted-friendly is
    your state?

    Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update

    Who's Online
    0 registered (), 0 Guests and 33 Spiders online.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    Gxtd, NYC2011, varsha dongre, Caril, Happy Dolphin
    10643 Registered Users
    November
    Su M Tu W Th F Sa
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    Page 3 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
    Topic Options
    #244256 - 11/05/18 06:58 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2588
    Loc: MA
    I hope the judge orders that any use of "racial boxes" be ended.

    Arguments Over How to Prove Racial Bias Drive Final Day at Harvard Trial
    By Nicole Hong
    Wall Street Journal
    November 2, 2018

    ...

    Friday’s closing arguments focused on a central question: Does Harvard’s admissions process impose an illegal penalty on Asian-American applicants because of their race?

    Harvard’s lawyers said no, arguing the institution’s data showed there was a slight, positive effect on the likelihood of admission for Asian Americans who were women or from California. Both sides also agreed Harvard didn’t racially discriminate against Asian American legacies. And Harvard says it gives preference to low-income applicants of all races, including Asian Americans.

    “If there was discriminatory animus,” said William Lee, a lawyer for Harvard, “why would it be directed only to certain categories of Asian-American applicants?”

    The plaintiffs’ lawyers said it was possible to discriminate against a group’s subset, such as against pregnant women on the basis of their sex.

    Harvard’s own internal reports from 2013 concluded being Asian American hurt an applicant’s likelihood of admission, the plaintiffs said. They said Harvard’s admissions dean ignored those conclusions and failed to investigate further, which they called evidence of intentional discrimination. Harvard said those reports were preliminary and incomplete.

    ...

    Harvard’s lawyers said race is only used as a preference among the most competitive applicants, in the same way exceptional musical talent can make a difference in admissions.

    If the judge finds Harvard liable on any counts, she then would determine a remedy. The plaintiffs originally sought to prohibit Harvard from considering race in future admissions decisions.

    In his opening statement, an attorney for the plaintiffs suggested the judge could remedy any disparate treatment of white and Asian-American applicants by ordering Harvard to group them into the same racial box during admissions.

    Top
    #244260 - 11/05/18 10:18 PM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3285
    Loc: California
    If the use of racial boxes has to go, then legacy, donor, celebrity, and other discriminatory preferences also need to go. IMO, they’re worse than racial preferences in that they enforce and perpetuate privilege.

    If you advocate for discrimination in favor of any group, you advocate for blanket discrimination, whether you want to admit so or not. If you want to end discrimination favoring one group, you need to end it for all of them.

    Admissions need to be merit based, and nothing but. And of course, we as a society need to fix the problems and gross inequalities that create the admissions gaps.

    Top
    #244262 - 11/06/18 06:31 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Val]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2588
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: Val
    If the use of racial boxes has to go, then legacy, donor, celebrity, and other discriminatory preferences also need to go. IMO, they’re worse than racial preferences in that they enforce and perpetuate privilege.

    The judge does not have jurisdiction to ban those preferences. One may think it is unseemly for Harvard to prefer the children of celebrities, but what law is it violating by doing so? Congress could decide that elite schools have become so corrupt that their tax benefits should be withdrawn. I have written repeatedly that purchases of seats should not be deductible as as charity.

    Top
    #244263 - 11/06/18 07:17 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3285
    Loc: California
    Discrimination is discrimination, regardless of which group is being favored.

    I didn’t say anything about the judge’s jurisdiction. I simply said that if Harvard is forced to end one discriminatory admissions practice, it should end them all.

    A student whose mommy or daddy went to Harvard may be more likely than a random person to be qualified for admission there. But this possibility should be irrelevant to the actual admissions decision. All that should matter is the student’s qualifications.

    And the tax deduction thing is just a distraction. The practice of buying a seat for an unqualified student is wrong and shouldn’t happen.

    If Harvard can prefer the children of celebrities, why can’t it prefer the children of members of a given ethnic or racial group?

    Top
    #244264 - 11/06/18 08:22 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Val]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2588
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: Val
    Discrimination is discrimination, regardless of which group is being favored.

    Not all discrimination is equally problematic. I don't know many people who think women's colleges such as Wellesley should be forced to admit men. I've read that many private liberal arts colleges favor male applicants, because if the sex ratio gets too skewed, the schools will become unattractive to both sexes. I think MIT has some preference for females. Many colleges are residential communities as well as educational institutions, and they admit students accordingly.

    Top
    #244265 - 11/06/18 08:32 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3285
    Loc: California
    You’re trying to avoid the point.

    Say a college decides to admit a less qualified candidate because mommy or daddy is a graduate/famous/a donor. The college does this because it sees the admission as benefiting the college in some way.

    The college has the same opinion about admitting a less qualified student from North Dakota or from a given racial/ethnic group. There is no difference.

    If one discriminatory practice (“racial boxes”) is unfair and must be ended, then they all are (alumni boxes, donor boxes, fame boxes), and they must all be ended. Admissions have to be fair, for everyone.

    Discrimination in all its forms undermines society as a whole. Discrimination in favor of the wealthy is simply another form of discrimination, albeit with more serious consequences than discrimination in favor of the underprivileged.

    Top
    #244266 - 11/06/18 08:34 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    atticcat Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/29/14
    Posts: 54
    What if anything did it have to do with with intellectual property rights?

    Top
    #244267 - 11/06/18 09:18 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Val]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2588
    Loc: MA
    Harvard charges $70K a year and has a $37 billion endowment. I favor treating it like other businesses. Businesses are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of race, but they do discriminate on the basis of willingness and ability to pay. That's how a market economy works.

    Top
    #244268 - 11/06/18 09:22 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    mckinley Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/03/18
    Posts: 114
    Don't forget merit boxes. Seems fair.

    Top
    #244269 - 11/06/18 09:36 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3285
    Loc: California
    Harvard is not a business. It’s a non-profit. If it wants to go the for-profit college route and start paying all sorts of taxes, it can give what it likes to its biggest customers.

    Until then, the argument that it’s okay to discriminate in admissions in favor of wealthy people but not poor people is intellectually dishonest in its face. This type of discrimination has led this nation into a hot mess, and it’s time that overprivileged Americans grow up and share their cake.

    Prince William had to get the minimum A-level scores to get into St. Andrews, the same as everyone else. My friend, who was the provost’s kid, did too. No one is suffering unduly because of transparent admissions, but many people do suffer when the deck is stacked in favor of small groups. A perfect example of that is the admissions arms race that’s been damaging the mental health of school kids for over 20 years now.

    Top
    Page 3 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >


    Moderator:  M-Moderator 
    Recent Posts
    John Hopkins CTY Program
    by JudAU
    Yesterday at 08:27 PM
    The ultimate brag thread
    by JudAU
    Yesterday at 07:32 PM
    Any doctors offer SB-5 test
    by gam3
    Yesterday at 11:58 AM
    Fun math problems for kids
    by cmguy
    Yesterday at 10:52 AM
    How Expected Family Contribution is calculated
    by nicoledad
    11/18/19 10:22 AM
    Davidson Institute Twitter