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    #244132 - 10/18/18 10:07 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: stemfun]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3285
    Loc: California
    Added: something I find particularly objectionable about the NYC thing is that they're going to reserve the spots for students from low-income schools, as opposed to low-income students.

    What does this mean?

    From the NY Times:

    Originally Posted By: NY Times
    And who makes it into the program will also change. Students are currently eligible if they meet the city Education Department’s criteria for being disadvantaged. But under the new plan, only students who attended high-poverty middle schools will be accepted.


    This means that low-income Asian students who don't go to a low-income school won't qualify. Instead, they'll qualify to be denied admission because they aren't poor in the right way. Note that a previous story in the Times said that some of these families sacrifice buying food to pay for tutoring.

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    #244135 - 10/18/18 11:24 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2589
    Loc: MA
    As I wrote before, you are not supposed to receive anything of substantial value in return for a tax-deductible donation. Some Americans, rationally or not, value admissions for their children at some universities at more than $1 million. Non-profits must provide receipts for large donations. For Harvard and the "donor" to exchange a million dollar "donation" for an admissions spot, which can reduce Federal income taxes by about $400K (using a marginal income tax rate of 40%), is a big tax fraud. The honest thing to do would be to simply auction off a limited number of spots and do away with the pretense of charity.

    Bloomberg, which sells expensive financial terminals to Wall Street, knows it audience.

    Harvard's Not-So-Secret Admissions Factor: Donors Get a Boost
    By Patricia Hurtado
    Bloomberg
    October 18, 2018, 7:00 AM EDT

    A Harvard dean was thrilled. The undergraduate college had just admitted the offspring of some wealthy donors, and now the money was expected to pour into the university.

    "I am simply thrilled about all the folks you were able to admit," David Ellwood, then the dean of the John F. Kennedy School of Government, wrote to Admissions Dean William Fitzsimmons on June 11, 2014. "All big wins. [Name redacted] has already committed to building and building. [Name redacted] and [name redacted] committed major money for fellowships -- before the decisions (from you) and are all likely to be prominent in the future. Most importantly, I think these will be superb additions to the class."

    ...

    In a second email, in which the names of students and family are redacted, a Harvard development officer discussed with Fitzsimmons the application of another student with rich parentage.

    "Going forward, I don’t see a significant opportunity for further major gifts," the officer wrote. "[Name redacted] had an art collection which conceivably could come our way. More probably it will go to the [name redacted] museum.”

    Athletes, especially those from wealthy families, are particularly coveted at a school with a $39.2 billion endowment, or so it seems.

    In an October 2014 email, the school’s former tennis coach thanked a dean for meeting a visiting applicant. "He was unsurprisingly thrilled to meet you," the coach wrote. “[Name redacted’s] family for some time donated [name redacted] to Harvard and two full professorships over the last few years."

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    #244136 - 10/18/18 11:32 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Val]
    stemfun Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/23/12
    Posts: 100
    Originally Posted By: Val
    Added: something I find particularly objectionable about the NYC thing is that they're going to reserve the spots for students from low-income schools, as opposed to low-income students.

    What does this mean?

    From the NY Times:

    Originally Posted By: NY Times
    And who makes it into the program will also change. Students are currently eligible if they meet the city Education Department’s criteria for being disadvantaged. But under the new plan, only students who attended high-poverty middle schools will be accepted.


    This means that low-income Asian students who don't go to a low-income school won't qualify. Instead, they'll qualify to be denied admission because they aren't poor in the right way. Note that a previous story in the Times said that some of these families sacrifice buying food to pay for tutoring.


    I do wonder why they are reserving slots for 'low income schools' instead of 'low income students' in low income schools. Low income students (of all races) in low income schools are more disadvantaged than low income students in higher income schools because the education received in low income schools is simply not on par with that from higher income schools which tend to have better teachers and resources (including after school support). Low income students in higher income schools could also be said to be more disadvantaged than their higher income counterparts in the same school.

    However, if the education received and resources available in all K-12 schools were the same, affordable after school prep for all were available and all parents were aware of what is needed to give each child a fair shot then no slots will be needed for low income students.


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    #244139 - 10/18/18 12:47 PM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    mckinley Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/03/18
    Posts: 114
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    For Harvard and the "donor" to exchange a million dollar "donation" for an admissions spot, which can reduce Federal income taxes by about $400K (using a marginal income tax rate of 40%), is a big tax fraud. The honest thing to do would be ...


    ... just receipt the donation as not tax deductible. But that assumes that a fair market value has been determined for admission to Harvard.

    Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking discusses the idea that Harvard (and Yale) looking for extroverted applicants goes back to the late 1940s.

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    #244156 - 10/20/18 05:34 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2589
    Loc: MA
    Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Affirmative Action Trial
    By Anemona Hartocollis
    New York Times
    October 19, 2018

    ...

    Harvard also looks at factors like parental occupation, which Mr. Fitzsimmons said offer clues about financial hardship, and intended major, to avoid having too many students with the same educational interests.

    For instance, he said this week, there had been huge increases in would-be engineers and computer scientists, but Harvard had to be wary of admitting too many, because “a whole bunch” of them “will end up happily ever after at M.I.T. or Caltech.”

    “One thing we always want is humanists,” Mr. Fitzsimmons said, adding that there were “fewer and fewer” of them.

    *********************************************

    The above is what I noticed that I had not seen in other articles about the trial.

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    #244175 - 10/23/18 02:29 PM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    Wren Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1464
    What about athletes that barely make the scores but get big scholarships and take up spots? If it is all score based, then you may completely change college sports. That aint going to happen in America.

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    #244176 - 10/23/18 03:24 PM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    NotSoGifted Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/14/12
    Posts: 445
    Ivies don't give athletic scholarships (or any scholarships). They have an Academic Index, and athletes must meet a minimum number. The team average A.I. has to be not too different than the overall student body average A.I. (maybe within a standard deviation - I don't remember).

    That being said, if you are a big impact player for a certain sport, you can get away with the minimum A.I. Ivies sometimes then "recruit" athletes that are good players, not great, but have a high A.I. to boost the team average.

    There was a classmate of one of my kids who was a big impact player in her sport, and she was probably on the low end of A.I. Kid had a 1200 SAT, and managed the academics (in a not too demanding major).

    However, that is about as low as they will go. Said kid had a sibling who played the same sport at a public Ivy, and had lower scores - that kid struggled with the academics.

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    #244191 - 10/26/18 07:37 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Thomas Percy]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2589
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: Thomas Percy
    Yep, one type of applicants were discriminated against for sure, the introverts.

    Is an Extroverted Applicant Better Suited for Harvard Than an Introvert?
    New York Times
    By Anemona Hartocollis
    October 25, 2018

    BOSTON — Days before the opening of a trial accusing Harvard of discriminating against Asian-American applicants, the college issued new guidance to its admissions officers earlier this month on what personalities it is seeking in its incoming freshmen, a question at the heart of the case.

    The new guidelines for the Class of 2023 caution officers that character traits “not always synonymous with extroversion” should be valued, and that applicants who seem to be “particularly reflective, insightful and/or dedicated” should receive high personal ratings as well.

    The disclosure of the new guidelines on Thursday, the ninth day of the trial in Federal District Court here, address central concerns in the case. The group challenging Harvard’s affirmative action efforts, Students for Fair Admissions, says that the university limits the admission of Asian-American students by giving them lower personal ratings and stereotyping them as quiet and studious. Harvard has denied stereotyping or discriminating against any racial or ethnic group.

    The advice on personal ratings does not mention Asian-American bias. But the case has raised the question of whether elite colleges’ preference for certain character traits in applicants — such as extroversion — is culturally biased.

    One of the odder quirks of the trial testimony has been how often the word “effervescence” has come up. It has been hammered home that Harvard values applicants who are bubbly, not “flat,” to use another word in the Harvard admissions lexicon.

    Admissions documents filed in court awarded advantages to applicants for “unusually appealing personal qualities,” which could include “effervescence, charity, maturity and strength of character.”

    Now “reflective” could be a plus as well.

    ...

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    #244198 - 10/27/18 07:12 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    philly103 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 03/02/17
    Posts: 66
    THe introvert vs. extrovert thing is interesting because there is some research out there that extroverts make for better leaders and are better at climbing to the top of organizations because of a social bias towards them. For a school that values the prestige of its graduates, one can see the value in pursuing extroverts.

    As an introvert, it kind of sucks to know.

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    #244199 - 10/27/18 08:07 AM Re: Harvard admissions lawsuit [Re: Bostonian]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3449
    More accurately, the research indicates that extroverts are perceived to be better leaders, and thus more likely to be hired and to be paid more. In actual objective measures of performance, they are no more likely to be effective than introverts are, and in some cases are markedly less effective. It is true that the same research pool has found that HBS in particular values extroversion. In the sense that they are attempting to generate a consistent product, it is understandable that HBS would select for certain personalities. For the rest of the university, however, that decision is less easily supported.

    The background section of this paper reviews much of the recent research:

    https://digitalcommons.fiu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=lead_research


    Edited by aeh (10/27/18 08:13 AM)

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