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    Joined: Sep 2018
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    Star448 Offline OP
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    Short version: is there really a difference between a 129 and a 130 on the In-View CSI? Anyone have info on what the SAGES actually tests?

    Hello everyone,

    New to this community and landed here after becoming incredibly frustrated with our public school in NJ. DD7 is certainly gifted. She was an early reader/talker, has always been advanced in reading fluency and comp, has always asked thoughtful questions, and so on. We had concerns early on she had issues with focus, but working with a psychologist we learned she was likely quite bored during her 1st and 2nd grade classes, and this is why she wouldn't complete work and tune out occasionally. We had her complete a WISC-V a few months ago. Her GAI was in the mid-130s with the Fluid Reasoning and Verbal indices in the high 130s. There is no doubt from ELA grades, or in talking to her teachers, she is a very advanced reader.

    Her teachers have not really differentiated for her, however. If pressed, the admin and teachers will claim they do reading groups and hand her books "at her level", but I don't consider this actively supporting a child who has this potential. There is a G&T program in the district, but it doesn't begin until 3rd grade. So this year, my daughter would be eligible. I thought given her profile she would automatically qualify. Nope.

    In March, she and her classmates took the In-View. She maxed out one of the verbal categories at the 99th % and the other scores, except for non-verbal, were close (NV was somewhere in the low 80th %). Her CSI was one point from the district's required cut-off for "automatic qualification". ONE POINT. And this is why now, we have no idea whether she will be accommodated by being included in this program.

    One of my first questions: is there really a difference in ONE point on the CSI measure of this test? As I understand it, a standard error of measurement would apply. She is in the range of two SD above the mean, and I'm so frustrated the district, per the principal, "has to take a hard line on the number". It seems arbitrary and ignorant. Is it time for me to talk to the superintendent and bring in math? I'm really not trying to be snarky. I'm so concerned because no one seems to be able to explain to me why this number is the cut-off, or why the one-point difference matters when these other things are so obvious.

    When I referenced her WISC-V (far superior as a measure of her potential, right?) to try pushing back against this one-point exclusion, the gifted teacher told me the district refuses to acknowledge it. I don't remotely understand how this is acceptable. The psych who administered the test is well-known and regularly works with area public schools. She wrote a short letter with recommendations and explanations of DS's performance.

    We now have no idea whether she will be recommended into this program. Her report cards are mixed, and we find some of her teachers are frustrated by her "lack of focus" and "distractability". Her second grade teacher especially - the one who would likely refer her, or not, for this program - used to get annoyed at her when she completed workbooks before the other students and would find her sneak-reading her own books from home or staring out the window. We had tried working with one of her reading teachers to differentiate, but she basically refused. After this happened, admittedly I allowed her to bring in her own books, because she would cry and become anxious at the thought of "sitting around all day doing nothing" during class last year.

    The "compromise" the school is willing to make now is to have her take the SAGES in two weeks. I have no idea what this is, but my basic understanding of it from cursory Google searching is that it's an achievement test based on accrued knowledge. I fear now that my daughter will be tested on the US State capitols or something, perform poorly, and face another year of stagnation.

    Believe me, we do all we can at home. But I feel my daughter is being treated unfairly here and not accommodated as she should be. She's introverted, and I also feel this an a lack of self-esteem are impacting the way teachers see her (as "gifted" or "not").

    Any thoughts or advice would be very much appreciated. If you've read this far, thank you so much.

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    aeh Offline
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    Welcome!

    Short answer, part 1: no, there is not a meaningful difference between 129 and 130.

    Long answer, part 1: As a parent, I get your frustration--but as someone who has been on the other side of the table for GT decision-making, I also understand why the district has to have policies. If there were none, those children with more savvy parental advocates and the financial resources to obtain private testing would gain an advantage over children with identical profiles without those resources. And since the children without built-in advocates tend to be disadvantaged to begin with (they usually have to overcome more to achieve the same nominal qualifications), this creates equity issues. Not to mention lawsuits and OCR investigations.

    Short answer, part 2: yes.

    smile

    Long answer, part 2: SAGES-2 contains two types of tasks. The aptitude measure is essentially a nonverbal cognitive (IQ) screener, which is not as robust as the WISC-V, since it is a screener, but does have the advantage over InView that it is individually-administered, which allows the examiner to gauge and maintain student attentiveness and engagement. The achievement measure consists of a language-related task (verbal and social studies), and a math-related task (math and science). By my recollection, US state capitols do not have a prominent place in scoring.

    In the case of your DC, the SAGES-2 aptitude measure may or may not increase her likelihood of GT qualification, as it principally assesses her apparent weakest area on the InView. However, on the WISC-V, the task is most similar to the FRI, which was a strength. Perhaps the difference is related to group vs individual assessment, in which case the result may be more like that on the WISC, but that is difficult to predict from the available data. The achievement measure, OTOH, may have a more clearly positive effect, since you describe her as an early and avid reader, which typically has score-raising effects not only on language/knowledge-related tasks, but on science-knowledge-related tasks.

    Scoring on the SAGES-2 can be reported using either population norms (in which case the district is probably looking for a number at or above the 98th %ile), or GT norms, in which case the cutoff is probably more like the 50th %ile (i.e., at or above the mean for identified GT students).


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    Star448 Offline OP
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    I can't thank you enough for both the perspective and the information. I hadn't thought of the bigger picture with the cut-off # for the district G&T program. Of course the school has to have uniform or routine measures in place to prevent more privileged students from gaming the system!

    I was being a bit cheeky about SAGES and state capitols, but your explanation certainly helps me to understand the test as a screening mechanism. We'll see what happens if that's the only option they leave us with.

    I'm not sure where my DC will end up in all of this, but at least having her evaluated via the WISC has helped us understand how her mind works a bit better, and also has clarified what would help her become more engaged and challenged. I'm trying to remain cautiously optimistic as it's a new school year with a new teacher, and they may be better at differentiating. But we're still recovering from a 2nd grade experience where she was not only bored and anxious, but frequently reprimanded for being distracted when she sought out any stimulation that would help her feel active. I hate that she's beginning to understand the daily classroom experience in this way. I'm doing everything I can to counter that with more positive experiences that meet her needs -- and I'm just asking the school for a little help. I feel like we're getting massively stonewalled. I'm sure we're not the first!

    Thanks again.

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    aeh Offline
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    You are very welcome. I hope your DC gets what she needs; with your support outside of school, I think her chances are good. And if the school system proves not to be the right fit for her, you might also consider other options, such as partial or full time homeschooling/unschooling, online schooling, etc. If you're spending enough time and energy on afterschooling to feed her cognitive needs it may start to make sense to just transition the whole educational experience to one tailored to her needs.


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