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    #243895 - 09/18/18 11:38 AM Freshman with newly diagnosed ADHD-Have you BTDT?
    OCJD Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/29/12
    Posts: 68
    Hello all, (apologies in advance for the length)
    My DS14 was dx this past summer with mild ADD (basically inattentive type) and dysgraphia (I did it finally Polarbear!).

    He tested HG back in 3rd grade. Was dx this past summer and we started him on low dose Concerta then up to the next dose (36 mg) during the first week of school. The neuropsych work up showed a steep drop off in IQ on the WISC-V(which he took unmedicated and tested at around 134). The tester said he was all over the place and just would not keep on task.

    He's enrolled in a small private school with small classes and is taking 4 Honors classes (he had to test into those). I frankly thought things would be better now that he's on meds. He started off okay but he's failed three tests (two in Bio and one in Spanish). He claims he did not know how to study for the Bio tests but claims to understand now (we will see). Spanish he claims he failed b/c it was a pop quiz. He's received some middling Bs on Geometry H tests. The teachers are really organized so there is little surprise as to what is being tested.
    He has so much work every night that it seems all he does is homework and study for tests and my husband and I work with him a lot to keep him on task and on track. He's at 3 As and 3 Bs but I don't think he can hang on to the As and is on the brink of Cs and I see the real possibility of a semester report card of Bs and Cs. I'm not looking for him to graduate with some kind of amazing GPA but I do want to help him carve a path to some upward progress.

    We have not asked for accommodations. Why not? I don't really know why. Maybe I don't know what to ask for yet. I know part of the problem is that it takes him likely 2x as long as any other kid to do the work because he is slow. The other part is the work, especially the bio, requires a deeper level of thinking that I am not certain he can access yet. English 2H he is managing but it's because we review the material together a lot and I make sure he's at a good understanding. He's has not forgotten any homework assignments and is much more organized than he was in the past. We sit with him every week and plan out the week's homework and tests.

    Possibilities are dropping 1-2 of the honors classes which may hurt him in the long run with colleges, but really, maybe that is not the point anymore.

    There is just reconciling myself to the fact that it will be a long slog and no one will come up for air for a few years.

    Or letting him swim or (likely sink) for a year or so until he adapts. But will that happen? Can ADD kids learn to deal with this?
    I don't want him to have to work every minute when he's not in school as I don't think that is healthy for him.

    I'd consider a higher dosage of meds although he already does not eat much and is just about 6ft 1 and very skinny.

    On the good side, his social skills have improved remarkably to the point where he's made new friends and asked someone to go to Homecoming with him.

    Anyone have any advice to help me the see the big picture when trying to help an ADD kid make it through high school? I know I am missing what's important but I'm so exhausted, I'm having trouble seeing it.

    Thank you.

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    #243905 - 09/19/18 04:23 AM Re: Freshman with newly diagnosed ADHD-Have you BTDT? [Re: OCJD]
    Platypus101 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/01/14
    Posts: 665
    Loc: Canada
    Not so much BTDT as "am there, beating my head against the wall". Working on some similar issues with DS14, grade 9, extremely inattentive ADHD plus writing disabilities (not dysgraphia, more like expressive language). Unbelievably slow in doing, well, anything. Issues has been obvious for a long time, but only formally diagnosed last spring. We are experimenting with medication, to unclear success so far.

    So we haven't solved this one, by any means. Still, my first advice is, don't go for sink-or-swim. If he could learn to swim by himself, by definition he wouldn't have ADHD. It's not that the way he is, is the way he must always be. He can learn some skills, improve his executive function. Perhaps more importantly, he can figure out his weaknesses and develop his work-arounds and compensation mechanisms and support systems. But all this takes time, a LOT of it. And it takes direct, explicit teaching and an insane amount of repetition and practice.

    I find what I am always reminding myself is that so much that is absolutely obvious, absolutely basic, plain common sense is utterly mysterious to this kid. You have to spell it out. Repeatedly. No matter how simplistic it seems. No matter how gifted they are. Think of them as missing the parts of their brain where they get this stuff. You have to strap on structure from the outside, because they just don't have it within.

    Our big goal this year is to have him not working constantly on unfinished schoolwork (especially since its all in his weak areas - writing - and has stopped him from pursuing his passion areas - math, physics - for lack of time). His psych and his teacher of the last two years have both urged us to see reducing the homework time as a top priority. I couldn't agree more, but it's not easy. From the sound of it, your son is already working really, really hard - but it's not doing the job. So how do you figure out what kind of working different he needs?

    One big help for me is to let go of the idea of the standard pathway. The kid is moving in his own way, at his own speed, and some of that is way faster (though acceleration is verboten around here, alas) and some is much slower. So what does your kid need, in order to be doing well, and living a real life that is rewarding for him? Maybe he does need to dial back on some of the honors classes. But maybe he needs those harder classes (mine really does), just less of them? In our case, DS is doing a reduced courseload this year, so he has both built-in support time, and time during the school day to complete work that he can't get done in class. Maybe he catches up on credits in summer school, maybe not. He may take longer to graduate, and I need to learn to be comfortable with that (I graduated two years early; this is weird for me, but I'm so not him).

    We are just starting to figure out what accommodations might look like in high school. But it's clear he desperately needs them. We're also still working on/ ramping up skills-building at home (and he has a learning strategies course at school). He really needs to be explicitly taught this stuff, and it's really hard for him to learn, and it takes a loooooooong time. I guess that's my attempt at the big picture. He can do this - but he can't do it alone, and it ain't gonna be fast nor easy. If it helps, here's some of my favourite resources:

    The theory - Russell Barkley:
    http://www.russellbarkley.org/factsheets/ADHD_EF_and_SR.pdf

    The practice - Seth Perler:
    https://sethperler.com/7-systems-outside-box-learners-desperately-need/
    https://www.youtube.com/user/ShineOnEducation

    Here's a good example:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFBDc_fCckc

    Dawson's Smart But Scattered remains a go-to resource for practical tips, as does ADD-itude:

    https://www.amazon.com/Smart-but-Scatter...MAR0GQKDHGW50RR

    https://www.additudemag.com

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    #243907 - 09/19/18 05:50 AM Re: Freshman with newly diagnosed ADHD-Have you BTDT? [Re: OCJD]
    howdy Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/04/13
    Posts: 279
    I wonder if this med is effective at this dose.

    An idea to consider is if he is not able to pay enough attention in class, he may be trying to teach the material to himself at night, and then complete the work, thus the homework takes him forever.

    I might bring up this idea diplomatically, try to get to the root of the problem.

    I would also help him study and make sure he is doing his work on time, for a short period of time to help scaffold him. This will be tricky as he is older, and may not want your help.

    I would ask the doctor about dosage or trying a new class of meds.

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    #243919 - 09/19/18 07:02 PM Re: Freshman with newly diagnosed ADHD-Have you BTDT? [Re: OCJD]
    OCJD Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/29/12
    Posts: 68
    Thank you all~
    Howdy- Yes definitely that was what was happening last spring with Algebra back in middle school. He was starting to crater and it turned out he was not absorbing anything in class. We know it's better now but given that it's block schedule, he has 75 min classes and I'm worried that he fades toward the end of a class period and definitely toward the end of the day. We are going to talk to his doctor about upping the dosage. thank you so very much for your kind input.

    Platypus--Yes that is me! I feel so much empathy for you. I especially feel for your son regarding his inability to pursue his passions for math and physics at present. We are the same but with biology and science. I'd love to also reduce the homework. So far, we've identified one culprit which is Bio Honors, supposedly the most difficult class that even the super organized and high achieving kids complain about. He has block schedule at his high school so only has it every other day but they fly through the material and do double the work in each class. It's just so frustrating trying to help him keep on top of this class in the midst of everything else. Case in point, we worked hard with him all weekend and Monday to study for three tests he had Tuesday. We had everything planned out. He had written his Lab report all weekend and tried to get ahead of some work so he could just study Monday. Then boom, pop quiz in Spanish. Pop quizzes don't work for him so he failed it and it was so upsetting because he felt like he had carefully managed everything that weekend. (this is after failing two bio tests).
    Next week, he has bio three days and he has a test EVERY SINGLE DAY in it plus another lab report and other stuff due in it. This is aside from the Geo H homework, Eng. 2H essays and tests, Spanish Unit test, and other stuff due.
    It's just too much. We discussed dropping the Bio H and going into regular bio but he doesn't want to because he's embarrassed. But given the little time they spend on each chapter, I don't know what he's getting out of it anyway.
    Your post really helped me to see that I need to let go of what I thought it would be like for him.
    He does have the ability to take classes in the summer and online so we are going to have him do stuff like theology (it's a Lutheran school) online during the summer to lighten the load during the year. A 5 year plan for high school is a good idea!

    We are also trying to figure out accommodations. Oddly he doesn't have trouble finishing tests but maybe if he had more time he'd think about the answers more deeply and actually get more correct.
    I also connect with your comment that he'd do better if he could. I heard a great podcast on Tilt about that. We try to keep in mind that he'd do everything he is supposed to if he could. He just can't hold it in his head long enough on a daily basis.
    Interestingly, Spanish 1 is giving him trouble because he is not absorbing it well in class and given that it's, well literally a foreign language to him and so much of the teaching is done in class, I think it becomes an additional barrier to learning it later in class.

    I truly appreciate all those links. I'd read lots of Barkley and read Smart but Scattered over the summer and implemented some of those strategies. The Seth Perler site was very helpful.
    I think even though I really boned up over the summer, it did not really hit home until high school started. Then it became "Oh, I see what they mean now".
    It seems like we will work with him extensively and think that he's got it down now and then he'll take several steps back.
    I think I'm just tired because basically I come home from work, we look at what he's got to do and spend the next 5 hours working. And I spend half my work time worrying about him which is not good for anyone.
    I hope things work out for your son. Please keep me posted on any helpful accommodations you come up with and I will share anything I develop.
    I'm especially interested in ways to help him retain information he learns in class.

    best wishes to you and your DS.

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    #243920 - 09/19/18 07:24 PM Re: Freshman with newly diagnosed ADHD-Have you BTDT? [Re: OCJD]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3638
    You might also look at HOPS, a homework and organization intervention designed for either parents or teachers to use for coaching students through explicit instruction in study and organization skills.
    https://www.nasponline.org/books-and-products/products/books/titles/hops-for-parents

    This is slides from a training on the intervention posted by some school district. I can't vouch for the actual content of this slidedeck, as I haven't viewed the whole thing, but it should at least give you a bit of an idea of how HOPS works.

    https://www.scred.k12.mn.us/UserFiles/Servers/Server_3022443/File/special%20ed/HOPS.pdf

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    #243922 - 09/20/18 04:51 AM Re: Freshman with newly diagnosed ADHD-Have you BTDT? [Re: OCJD]
    LazyMum Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/09/15
    Posts: 105
    This isn't an accommodation, or ADHD specific, but my mum used to teach exam skills to high school students, e.g.:

    During reading time have a look at how the exam is set out, how many sections, the weighting of the sections, how many points per question, etc. Make some rough mental calculations about how much time you should allocate per section/question. Note to anything you think you might have trouble with.

    Once you're allowed to pick up a pen, write down the start/finish time for each section, so you know how long you have, eg., Section A 10:00am-10:15am, Section B 10:15am-10:40am, etc., making sure to allocate time at the end of the exam to review/correct your answers or and work on anything you couldn't figure out at the time. Then go back through and read each question again, underlining any important terms to make sure you don't make silly mistakes, e.g. mean v median, how v why, (making up examples, but you know what I mean), and marking any big-point questions with a star.

    Now go back and start doing the exam. If you come up against a tricky question, only use your allocated time per question, then mark it with an asterisk, move on and come back to it when you've finished.

    Following a strict exam procedure like that can help a student to not get stuck on a question and run out of time. When you've finished all the questions, go back and check your working/answers.

    Do not leave the exam room early, even if you think you've got everything right. Keep checking for silly mistakes, recalculate everything, make sure you've used the number of decimal points they asked for, etc. All the little things. smile


    Edited by LazyMum (09/20/18 04:54 AM)

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    #243929 - 09/20/18 10:28 AM Re: Freshman with newly diagnosed ADHD-Have you BTDT? [Re: OCJD]
    polarbear Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/29/11
    Posts: 3363
    Nice to "see" you OCJD!

    I haven't had time to read the other replies - here are a few thoughts for you -

    Originally Posted By: OCJD

    He tested HG back in 3rd grade. Was dx this past summer and we started him on low dose Concerta then up to the next dose (36 mg) during the first week of school. The neuropsych work up showed a steep drop off in IQ on the WISC-V(which he took unmedicated and tested at around 134). The tester said he was all over the place and just would not keep on task.


    When was he tested this latest time - before he started taking Concerta or after he'd been on it for awhile? (sorry I'm easily confused lol!)

    Quote:
    He claims he did not know how to study for the Bio tests but claims to understand now (we will see). Spanish he claims he failed b/c it was a pop quiz. He's received some middling Bs on Geometry H tests.


    FWIW, figuring out what is going on when kids don't test well can be really challenging! My older dd has had a rough time with testing in high school, even in her strongest subjects. We've wondered for years (she has too) if she doesn't have mild ADHD. She also simply lacks some ef skills that surround test-taking that seem to be intuitive in many other kids. There also seems to be a bit of a long-term memory challenge (possibly) or perhaps she's not really truly "learning" her coursework (this is what a few of her teachers like to theorize - that she thinks she's learned a concept because she does well on her homework, but when she's doing homework the concept is fresh in her head, and she also has the ability to flip back in notes or a textbook to see an example if she's stuck momentarily - but testing takes place far enough removed from the actual lesson that if she hasn't studied/learned a concept to the point that it's somewhat automatic, the knowledge is not there to pull on in the test. We really didn't see any of this before she got to high school and I'm not sure why we didn't unless it's simply due to the increased demand in homework/learning/etc.

    Originally Posted By: OCJD

    He has so much work every night that it seems all he does is homework and study for tests


    FWIW, this was my dysgraphic ds' entire high school experience - I'll go into more detail below. It was far from an ideal situation, and if I could have changed anything about high school, I would have lightened his homework load. We were a bit stuck as he chose his high school program and really loved the school. Unfortunately the classes he was doing the most homework in were most often the classes that he wasn't interested in and didn't enjoy.

    Originally Posted By: OCJD
    my husband and I work with him a lot to keep him on task and on track.


    I had to support my ds with organizational skills quite a bit too - it can be very frustrating but fwiw, it was what he needed to make them become automatic. Dysgraphia is, at its root, a lack of ability to develop automaticity. This impacted challenge with automaticity impacted my ds in several ways outside of handwriting, and particularly in organizing his work.


    Originally Posted By: OCJD
    We have not asked for accommodations. Why not? I don't really know why. Maybe I don't know what to ask for yet.


    Did the neuropsych give you any recommendations for the accommodations that he needs and would be helpful? If not, I'd suggest going back to the neuropsych for an hour appointment (just you), and going through your ds' report one more time and asking for specific recommendations for accommodations.

    Originally Posted By: OCJD
    I know part of the problem is that it takes him likely 2x as long as any other kid to do the work because he is slow.


    I'm curious what type of dysgraphia he was diagnosed with? Did the neuropsych mention if it's fine-motor related? Is he using a computer or other word processor for his work? Caveat - my ds didn't rely on handwriting at all in high school (or even for years before that) but he was still relatively "slow" when completing work. The fine motor challenges that were contributing to his dysgraphia also made it difficult for him to keyboard quickly. He also simply moves slower than most people - he's not thinking slower, just moving slower.

    Originally Posted By: OCJD
    The other part is the work, especially the bio, requires a deeper level of thinking that I am not certain he can access yet. English 2H he is managing but it's because we review the material together a lot and I make sure he's at a good understanding.


    Was there any indication in his testing that he might not be a proficient reader? Some of what you mentioned above re testing sounds a lot like what happens with my dyslexic dd. She is really strong in math and science, but sometimes completely lost both in class and on tests when her reading skills trip her up.


    Originally Posted By: OCJD
    Possibilities are dropping 1-2 of the honors classes which may hurt him in the long run with colleges, but really, maybe that is not the point any more.


    If I could redo one (or two) things from my ds' journey through high school, I would have encouraged him to drop the honors classes in the areas he wasn't interested in pursuing in college, and focused on taking honors and extra classes in the subjects that really interested and excited him. This would have helped him in several ways: it would have led to less homework frustration, less time spent on homework, and overall an easier way of helping him stay positive about life and school in general. It might also have given him an opportunity (time and energy) to pursue a "something more" in his area of interest that would have helped his college application.

    Originally Posted By: OCJD
    Or letting him swim or (likely sink) for a year or so until he adapts. But will that happen? Can ADD kids learn to deal with this?


    I wouldn't leave him to sink or swim. One of my relatives taught their kids to swim (literally) by throwing them into the deep end of the pool without life jackets or training. It worked for them - and they all went on to become high-ability swimmers who competed on swim team in high school. If anyone had ever thrown me into the deep end of a swimming pool as a child I would have drowned. I don't float above water, I float about one foot under. Where you can't breathe. What does this have to do with anything? My cousins likely learned how to swim easily because they had a natural ability to swim. I've only been able to learn how to swim with my head out of water using very rudimentary skills in spite of repeated lessons over a lifetime - simply due to my natural abilities. Your ds likely doesn't have the skills he needs (at this point in time) to just be left to sink or swim in school. It's a slog to provide what feels like never-ending support and hard to see your child have to put so much effort into school - but it's also what you need to deal with at this point in his life. To make it easier, observe as much as you can as you help him, and read/research/ask questions as much as you can to put together a plan that provides learning support as well as accommodations. As time goes on, with the appropriate support, your ds will develop the skills he's going to be able to develop, he'll find ways that work for him to accommodate the skills that he might not ever be able to acquire (if there are any of those), and the hard work that you and he put in will pay off.

    One thing that helped both myself and my ds a lot when we'd get discouraged over thinking everything was taking so much work was to look back one year, or one month, or over some arbitrary period of time, and recognize the gains he had made - whatever they were. There were always gains to find and celebrate... we just typically didn't see any of it when we were lost in the thick of things.

    Best wishes to you and your ds,

    polarbear


    Edited by polarbear (09/20/18 10:40 AM)

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    #244626 - 01/08/19 12:51 PM UPDATE - Freshman newly dx with ADD [Re: polarbear]
    OCJD Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/29/12
    Posts: 68
    Hello all!!!
    I wanted to provide an update given all the kind answers I received above. I should have posted earlier but I did not want to jinx it.
    Recall, after starting meds in the summer and embarking upon a difficult freshman year course load, DS14 started failing tests despite the fact it appeared he was working basically all afternoon and evening after school. After we discussed possible dropping 1 or 2 of his honors classes including the very stressful and difficult Bio Honors, he said he knew what he needed to do. Darn it all, if he didn't then just take off. He started studying a little differently, talking to teachers and seeking help when needed, accessing all the practice items the teachers had available, and continued to plan out his weekly and monthly work and test schedules. He then started a run of several Bio H and Geo H tests with 100%. He went into finals for the semester with all As but still needing to get at least Cs on his finals in order to maintain his As. He ended up getting As on all his finals except Spanish but still finished with all As for the semester. He also got an A+ on his Bio H final and a 94 in that class.

    The grades are obviously very nice but I am mostly so happy for him that he found a way to work harder and smarter rather than longer. Maybe a switch went on in his head, I'm not quite sure. He still had to work hard and plan everything meticulously, which makes me happier because it seems that was another key to his success.

    He also continued to make new friends which was very gratifying since he was not the best at that before. Our home life also improved as our interactions at home became so much more positive because I learned to just let him be and let him ask us if he needed any help such as quizzing him on material the night before a test or helping him edit a paper that he wanted input for.

    We did end up getting a 504 because he needed to type all his English timed write tests in class as well as certain homework assignments that the teachers had previously required be handwritten. That helped his English grade a great deal and gave him confidence in his writing abilities. Plus I know he will need it in place if we need to seek accommodations from the College Board. But right now, he is only using the accommodations for typing although I don't rule anything out.

    Polarbear-Thank you again for all of your kind and wise input and comments. When he did his new IQ testing this past summer, he had been on Concerta for about a month and a half. The day he took the IQ test this summer that yielded the 134, he was off of it for the day.

    Your point about the entrenched learning of a topic prior to a test was very well-taken and we used that information with DS. In studying for a Geo test, for example, he made sure he went over practice questions, then took a few and then "taught" them to me or DH so that we knew he could explain and understand because we believed that would help make it "automatic" for him. So thank you for that point.

    We ended up indeed lightening his homework load simply by seeking the typing accommodation. With the dysgraphia, everything that involved writing even on his Ipad with his Apple pen took so long. Once he could type everything, the time he took was decreased which gave him a better overall feeling about the rest. And yes, he is still not as fast as others even when using a keyboard because he is just not a fast typist but I think he had a better attitude about it when he understood he was not having to write out a two page paper or do a timed write in class by hand writing it.

    He apparently has fine-motor dysgraphia. We did not see any reading fluidity problems. He has always been a strong reader of topics that interested him. Luckily for us, the biology became more interesting AND he learned how to access it in a way that stayed with him. It was amazing how he was retaining the information.

    The other gratifying thing that happened is that he discovered a real passion for architecture and design. He has always been interested in those areas but started looking into designing planned communities, houses, and other spaces. We found a couple who were retired architects and they have been giving him three hour lessons every Saturday for the past three months, which he loves. They have been helping build a portfolio of plans, sketches, and the like. Now he is thinking he would like to study architecture/design/urban planning in college with a specific emphasis on residential and low income housing.

    I am by no means thinking we can all put up our feet and sit back and wait for his acceptance to Stanford. (LOL) I just cannot believe that we have come out on the other side of that tunnel from September. I know other tunnels may be ahead but I feel better equipped to help him help himself reach his goals. Next up: PSAT/SAT/ACT boot camp!

    The other notable thing that came out of all this is that I think it very likely I've had ADD since childhood. But that is a topic for a different forum.

    I truly truly appreciate all of the kind input and helpful comments you all provided. You are wonderful people who are so generous with your wisdom and experience.

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    #244627 - 01/08/19 01:23 PM Re: UPDATE - Freshman newly dx with ADD [Re: OCJD]
    aeh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/26/14
    Posts: 3638
    Big fist bump to OCJD and your DS! That he figured out some strategies that work (rather well!) for him, and some new passions, is even more important than the excellent grades he turned in for the semester.

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    #244633 - 01/09/19 03:27 AM Re: UPDATE - Freshman newly dx with ADD [Re: OCJD]
    Platypus101 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/01/14
    Posts: 665
    Loc: Canada
    Wow, OJCP - this is an amazing update! I am so happy for your DS, and you must be so proud. He's taken incredible initiative with his own work and in reaching out to his teachers, and shown impressive self-awareness in figuring out how to work better. So well done!

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