Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment PSAT 9th

Hello all. We have successfully made it to high school with our girls, one DYS, one untested, but we know at least MG. We are now in a small private school, and it turns out they give the PSAT in 9th, 10th, and 11th. From the sources I have found it is considered advantageous to do some prep work for the PSAT as the 11th grade test is used to determine National Merit Scholarships. Correct? So do we view the PSAT 9th and 10th tests as part of that prep work and not worry so much about them? Our girls have already taken the SAT and previous to that, the Explore test via Duke Tip so they have some experience with testing.

Next question - DD13 took the previous tests without accommodations, and I want those in place before this upcoming test period. How long does it take to get those set up with the College Board? DD already has these accommodations set in her 504.

Anything else I need to be aware of?

Before you get too invested, I would seriously consider whether the NMF scholarship is something your kids would use- it can be a great deal, but only if your kids decide to attend specific schools; many schools ignore it completely. I don’t know, but in the end I felt it didn’t seem to add much to our DDs application, as many (?most) kids applying to the same schools had similar scores.

If your girls have already taken the SAT, then you already have information about how they do with this format (though the PSAT format is somewhat different, our kids didn’t find the differences to be significant).

So I guess I would use those data points to guide you in how much prep you want/expect them to do. Our kids (both untested) luckily do standardized tests very well- both easily cleared the benchmark for NMF taking the PSAT cold, without having done the SAT or ACT. (and one went in with the wrong calculator, so did the math without it, the other had a huge nosebleed and almost didn’t make it to the test center on time...). But we kind of expected them to have an easy time, and our kids abhor test prep, so we just went with that.

If you know your kids have areas that need work, you could consider it, but you have several years before the 11th grade test, and personally I think that just taking the PSAT twice beforehand, as your girls would be doing, should be more than adequate (unless they have test-taking challenges).

Regarding accommodations, we don’t have experience with this, but I think there are several past threads that address this issue. If I remember correctly, it can be a difficult thing to achieve, and scan take a while.

Good luck!

The PSAT 9 and 10 mean nothing. The PSAT/NMSQT can be s big deal depending on you situation. Daughter had a friend who got $200,000 to go to Alabama. It pays for everything. She was a semi finalist and from Illinois. My daughter is taking this year. The thing she learned is much of the math on their is learned from junior high and much she forgot about. I think s little refresher might of helped. I agree for many it means nothing but for some it’s a big deal

I'm not familiar with the PSAT-8 etc, so I'm not sure if taking it provides worthwhile prep for the PSAT taken for NMSF qualifying. Our school district lets sophomores take the qualifying PSAT as a practice run in sophomore year if students want prep, but my perspective on that (which is extremely limited to a very small sample lol!) was that it didn't really change the outcome of who landed where in terms of top percentiles - the kids who were going to score in the 98th-99th percentiles scored there, whether or not they took the practice test.


A semi-finalist doesn't actually receive a National Merit Scholarship... but scoring well does get your child on a lot of lists to receive information from colleges who will be excited to have your child apply, and that in turn can lead to a potentially large scholarship etc. Our ds was a NM finalist but few of the colleges he was interested in attending actually offered actual NM scholarships, and the ones that did had highly competitive admissions with all-around high PSAT and SAT scores as well as great GPAs - so in order to stand out an applicant needed more of something unique and different. My ds ended up attending a school that doesn't support NM scholarships but did send an auto-invite to apply when they received his PSAT scores... there were several invitations like that, where a student was given opportunities to apply without going through letters of recommendation etc unless they wanted to include additional info. DS got a great scholarship to a great college that he was one of his top choices so all an all-around win. On the flip side, I think the same would have happened with his SAT scores if he'd never taken the PSAT.

Re test prep for college, I'd take advantage of anything you can get at no cost through school if your girls want to do the prep, but if you're paying for prep or if your girls have limited time or patience for test prep, I'd focus on either SAT or ACT - those are tests you can improve scores on through prep courses. My ds wasn't interested in taking the PSAT test as practice as a sophomore and he still scored high enough to. e a finalist. I have a junior again this year who is very likely not to score high enough for NM, but we are having her take the test simply as practice for sitting through a standardized test in the same environment she'll have to take the SAT or ACT in later this year - not because exposure to the actual test will help with SAT but because she gets anxious when testing and for kids who have worries about time or performance etc that are large enough to impact their performance, practice in a similar environment *might* be helpful in learning how to cope with anxiety when testing (I included "might" in quotes because I'm sure there are a lot of kids who might just find that practicing would make them more anxious... our dd feels the practice will be helpful for her to learn how to manage her test stress... even though she's already worried about the test).

Re College Board accommodations - my recommendation is apply for them asap. CB has a system set up to allow schools to apply for students who have IEP/504 accommodations... so the first thing you should do is see if your school will apply for your dd. In our case, our school refused to apply for our ds (even though he had a 504 and a clear record of diagnosis, need and prior use of accommodations). We applied independently and he received each of the accommodations we requested, but we were very thorough in being sure we had read and understood everything the CB was looking for in making the request. If you get into the process and have any questions about how we approached our request, feel free to pm me. FWIW, having gone through the process to apply for CB accommodations and having received them helped make applying for accommodations in college easy.

Best wishes,

polarbear

eta - the reason I suggested applying for CB accommodations asap isn't that it takes a long time for the CB to determine if a student is eligible, but to give yourself time to appeal if the initial decision is a "no".

Taking the PSAT in 9th and 10th helps to prep for the PSAT in 11th and the SAT. My youngest is in 9th, so she'll be doing the silly PSAT 8/9 this year. I understood the old PSAT & SAT that my older two took - I just don't get why you should take a baby version of the PSAT instead of the real thing, but that is a rant for another day.

I think that the PSAT in 9th and 10th helped my middle kid hit the needed NM score in 11th grade. She didn't do much prep besides the PSAT, so just being familiar with the test helped.

In the end, NMSF/NMF didn't help her, but she knows that she could have chosen a college that would have been full tuition (or more) given the NMF status. It isn't the NMSC scholarship of $2,500 that makes the big impact, it is the schools that will give you tuition or more. Alabama has been mentioned, and a recent addition are some of the Florida schools. Their full ride NMF offers used to be just for in-state, but now they are offered to out-of-state students too.

Middle kid received a full tuition scholarship (not NMF related) to another school, but we asked her to apply somewhere where she knew she would get a large merit offer and would be happy to attend. Getting the needed NM score can assure your kid that they'll have some options for good merit.

One thing to remember is that the PSAT cutoff score varies by state - so it may be easy or not-so-easy to hit depending upon your location.

DD is in 9th grade. But needs a standardized test score for application to a program next year. We are in Toronto and it is very difficult to do the PSAT/NMSQT, unless it is in your school . Her school only gives it to 11th graders, doesn't have extra tests. Though the head of academics is trying. The test is Oct 10th. A consulting company suggested she just do the SAT in Dec. What is the big difference between the SAT and PSAT/NMSQT? The consultant said it was pretty much the same.

There is not a big difference between the PSAT and SAT as far as the questions and test format, though the PSAT is a shorter test. The big difference is that once you hit 9th grade, the SAT scores stay on your College Board record, so if a college requests you send all scores, they see your 9th grade score (which is likely to be lower than an 11th grade score).

You say you are in Toronto. Is your child a Canadian citizen or a US citizen? For NM purposes, you need to be a US citizen or a permanent resident of the US. You can be living abroad, take the PSAT and qualify for NM, but only if you meet the above qualifications. And those living outside the US typically must meet the highest qualifying cutoff score.

Hmmm, we are currently living outside the US but are American citizens. So our girls have to meet higher cutoff scores? How does this work?

The individual who is setting up testing is going to email the College Board tomorrow about accommodations. He emailed me something from the CB that states they do not review requests for the PSAT 8/9 but do so on the other tests. Since this test is given in September it may mean my husband and I have to request accommodations next year since having the school do so won't be possible due to summer break. Thank you, Polar Bear for all your help.

Each state has different cutoffs, which can change from year to year. Basically, I think the goal is to take a proportional number of kids from each state, which means if you are from, say, NJ or California, you have much more competition than if you are from a lower-performing/less populous state. Kids who are outside the US, or who are boarding school students, are not included in specific states. The international students have to clear the highest state cutoff; I can’t remember the rule for boarding students, but I am pretty sure they are also held to a higher cutoff (but it might be regional, not sure).

There is a lot of informed discussion about NM on the Compass Prep blog by Art Sawyer; you can ask questions and he is very good about providing specifics when he can.

https://www.compassprep.com/national-merit-semifinalist-cutoffs/

Thanks. She is American. Actual dual. Born in NYC and then I got her cdn citizenship. Convenient.
Well, it is a matter of what she can do. If the school gives her a spot, then the PSAT/NM whatever. Otherwise the SAT is her only other option.

But since it will be 2+ hears before she takes it again. I don't think it will be awful.

Some random thoughts in response to OP and a couple of other responses: If you have a high ability child, I would definitely opt for the SAT over the PSAT 8/9 or the PSAT/NMSQT due to the extremely low ceiling issue. Keep in mind that the current SAT is not like the one given prior to 1989 and accepted by MENSA. The ceiling is much much lower. In order to lower the ceiling even more, the PSAT 8/9 maxes out at 1440 (720M/720RW) while the PSAT/NMSQT maxes out at 1520 (760M/760RW) as compared to the SAT max of 1600. This actually makes it harder for 99+ percentile kids to score in the 99+ percentile because when you lower the ceiling, many more students hit it and careless errors and luck of the draw become a factor. If DC's talent search SAT scores are already in the 1500 range, then it is impossible to reach that score on the PSAT 8/9 and a potential toss-up whether you will on the PSAT/NMSQT. I mentioned luck of the draw because on an easy PSAT, a single missed problem can subtract 10 or 20 points from the maximum score (the actual PSAT 8/9 DS/DD took last fall). The SI (selection index) is 1/10 the sum of the Math score plus two times the Reading/Writing score so for NM (National Merit) purposes, it is possible to miss Semi-Finalist status in the toughest states with a score of 1490 if it's 760M/730RW. It is possible to miss the NM boat by missing a total of two problems in the RW sections on an easy version of the PSAT. Of course, there are some states with an SI as low as the commended cut-off of only 212 (compared to 223 in the toughest states, including Americans aboard) where you can achieve NM with a score as low as 1360 (600M/760RW).

Would you care to elaborate please? I must be being spectacularly dense/obtuse this morning because I am understanding that statement to mean that literacy is weighted 20 times more importantly than numeracy 1:20. In other words, that a person's Maths score will at most count for 1/21 of their total ( assuming ceilings on both sections are reached). This doesn't sound right - what am I missing?

The new exam scoring is very confusing. My older two took the three part SAT/PSAT, so the scoring was easy to understand. If I am wrong, someone please correct this explanation.

I think what is being said is that it is the math score (say 710) divided by 10, so 71. Then the Reading and Writing converted raw scores, which will each range from 8 to 38. Add those together - say 32 and 35, so 67. Then multiply 67 by 2 and add 71 for a selection index of 205.

I think that the PSAT scoring going back before the three part SAT/PSAT was the math section plus two times the verbal. What is interesting is that while I would expect the heavier verbal weighting to favor girls, historically, more boys have been NMSF (though there are more girls taking the PSAT than boys).

What do you mean, opt for it? Opt for it for what situation? They have to take PSAT for NMSF, correct? I am in a large state with a child who is likely to be somewhere on the bubble for NMS. Her verbal scores were higher than math on the PSAT 8/9.

Yes, you need to take the PSAT (in 11th grade) for NMSF. Since the College Board keeps all SAT sittings that you take from 9th grade on, and since some colleges require that you send all test scores, it is better to take the PSAT as a 9th grader. The PSAT is not sent to colleges. If you top out the PSAT, then you know you're probably good for NMSF and will do well on the SAT.

If you want to take the SAT, there are usually organizations and test prep companies that will offer a practice SAT in real test-like setting. Just make sure the test company didn't make up the questions - make sure it is an official practice SAT or a past released test.

My son a sophomore took PSAT 8/9 last year. He will also take the PSAT10 this spring I believe. He was more comfortable with the SAT in the spring thru NUMATs.

I am thinking about a prep class over the summer, not sure it will help. Not sure he will buy into it. I think the whole NMF should not ride on one test on one day.

I believe this is current info.

https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/pdf/sample-psat-nmsqt-score-report.pdf

The PSAT/NMSQT is not mandatory in our district. It costs like $16 to take. Most don't take it. The SAT at ours is taken in April junior year. It's free and mandatory

I'm in a somewhat similar situation - my DD14 took the SAT in 7th and 8th for CTY/SET/TIP. As she's already taken it twice, we're going to take this year off.

She'll take the PSAT next year to prep for the NMSQT version the following year (though I doubt it's any different), and then SAT in late 10th and 11th.

It sounds like you're considering the PSAT in 9th, not the PSAT 8/9. If you are going to test this year, I'd recommend the PSAT - the 8/9 seems to be of no value, IMHO.

For others who may be reading with a DYS student in 7th/8th - I highly recommend taking the actual SAT towards the end of 8th (and once before as practice, if possible). The student gets experience with the actual test, and it comes off their records as if it never happened. But if the student does manage a very good score (as mine did, and I suspect other DYS'ers could), you have the option to keep it and have a score "in the bag" well in advance of college applications.

She did write the PSAT NMSQT since it was for the 11th grade. they gave her a spot since she neededd the score for a summer program application. It seemed very easy. This cannot be a reflection of the SAT. Otherwise I do not understand why everybody doesn't get a perfect score. How comparable is the PSAT NMSQT to SAT?

The PSAT is similar to the SAT, just fewer questions. My older two took the 2400 format SAT & PSAT, and you could get a good idea of how they would do on the SAT by looking at their PSAT scores. (Now the College Board has the wacky 1520 limit on the PSAT vs 1600 on the SAT, so it is a little more difficult to compare.)

While the PSAT/SAT may be easy for some, the College Board has always tried to make the tests such that the average score on each section will be around 500. I think that the current SAT format average score is about 1060.

The good news is, if your daughter can hit a perfect or near perfect score, that she will be NMSF when she takes the PSAT junior year. As a US citizen living abroad, she still qualifies for NMSQT. The citizen living abroad cutoff PSAT score is always very high, so scoring well as a freshman bodes well for junior year.

Thanks for the info. So you still have to take it in junior year. Taking it already doesn't count? Annoying.

The PSAT 8/9, PSAT10/NMSQT, and SAT are on the same scaling, which is why there is a lower ceiling on the PSAT/NMSQT (and even lower on the 8/9). The idea is that the PSAT scores estimate the scores you would get if you took the SAT at that same time, and thus make it simpler to track progress across tests.

National Merit Scholarships are based on 11th grade PSAT, so you only have to take them if you're interested in the NM program. PSATs don't count at all for college, so NMS is really the only reason to take them. (I suppose taking a standardized test under actual conditions, but not counting, is a benefit).

SAT's are generally accepted for 5 years. I'm in the odd position of having DD14 take the PSAT the next 2 years but possibly not taking the SAT again, after her 8th grade score.

It was my understanding that most colleges want an SAT score taken more recently than the 8th grade. I believe they desire one in the last two to three years but not sure, perhaps others can comment.

I also believe that if you make NMSF that you must confirm your score by taking another SAT in order to get NMF?

I don’t know what colleges want, but the second part of the above comment is correct. For national merit consideration, you need to have confirming SAT scores within a certain time frame (I think is is roughly a year before the PSAT was taken, but can’t remenber exactly) up until something like the fall of senior year. They also recently changed the rules, so that kids can use an ACT score for confirmation instead of SAT, but I don’t know details of the time frame (assume it’s similar).

In conversations with HS guidance counselors, posts on College Confidential regarding admissions, and chats with a few college, no one has expressed this requirement. None of the college admission requirements sites I checked has such a constraint.

NMSQT does look to have a requirement for a supporting SAT score for award - some time between October 10th grade and December 12th grade.

The only college I can think of that specifically states that test scores must be from junior or senior year is CMU. And I've heard stories that they have accepted scores from 10th grade, but have no confirmation.

NMSQT does require a confirming score, but going forward (HS Class of 2020), I believe they will accept an ACT score. No one knows what ACT confirming score will be required, but likely will be the equivalent of the confirming SAT score. I don't know what the confirming score is for the new SAT, but for the old one, it was just a bit below the Commended score - so nothing difficult if you already hit the right PSAT score.

I finally remembered my password here! Hallo old friends! I have a question. How do you know if you are taking PSAT10 or PSAT11? Just curious, as it probably doesn't matter much. My 10th-grade son's school offers PSAT for 11th graders, but they said if they had room, 10th graders could come and take the test, so I thought he was taking the same test as the 11th graders?

OMG blast from the past! St pauli girl ... welcome back!

Hey there! I guess I would just ask the school. At our school, the sophomores are invited to sit for the PSAT too, and they all just take the regular PSAT, same as the juniors.

To be honest, I don’t understand the rationale for offering different levels of the PSAT at all, but maybe someone else here can shed some light. It sounds like a marketing ploy to me.

PSAT 8/9 is used by our district for class placement freshman year.

We received our girls' PSAT 8/9 scores the other day, and now I better understand this "luck of the draw" and careless error situation. While they both scored in the 99 percentile they each did not get perfect scores; DD13 forgot to answer one, and DD14 misunderstood how many questions there were and had to rush through the end of the test causing her to miss 1 or 2. Just one missed question caused the score to go down 10 - 20 points mentioned by Quantum2003.

So here is my question - do kids need perfect scores to get National Merit recognition? DD13, while a DYS'er, just isn't wired to jump through the hoops to get to perfection on a test. DD14, our overachieving girl, does not need the pressure to get that perfect score.

So here is my question - do kids need perfect scores to get National Merit recognition? DD13, while a DYS'er, just isn't wired to jump through the hoops to get to perfection on a test. DD14, our overachieving girl, does not need the pressure to get that perfect score.[/quote]

This is why I’d think very carefully about planning any intensive prep for the PSAT. It does come down to whether the kids makes a couple mistakes, jIMHO. Of course, there are a lot of variables. If you live in a high cutoff state or are international, there is even less margin for error.

And then it also depends on the college board- this recent sitting of the PSAT had some controversy. There is an alternate test date, so there are actually two forms of the exam given. Apparently the alternate test was ridiculously easy, so the resulting curve was brutal, meaning that missing one or two questions was enough to really tank the total score; you can read more about it on the compass prep site (there is an informative blog there by someone named Art Sawyer)-
Compassprep.com

Personally, our kids would not have tolerated prep for this, and I would not have pushed it at all, but that is easy for me to say, when we were not looking at schools which provide NMF scholarships. As far as college admissions, I truly believe that they care more about actual SAT scores- perhaps they agree that placing so much weight on one exam, and not a particularly challenging one, is kind of silly. I guess the main benefit we saw was lots of targeted college junk mail, if you consider that a benefit.

If you have a college board account it should have all the info. If you don't have an account sign up My sophomore son took the 8/9 last year and the PSAT/NMSQT this year.
That is what it is listed as on Collegeboard.

ETA: He also took the SAT last year (freshman) and will be taking 2 AP exams this year along with 2 SAT single subjects this year.

Mine took the 8/9 freshman year, the PSAT 10 sophomore year and the PSAT 10 NMSQT junior year. No one takes just the PSAT junior year at our school junior year. All juniors take the SAT in April.

DS is a sophomore and took the SAT in August for an upcoming residential school application. He prepared over the summer for the SAT and did well. It was only $10 to take the PSAT and since he had already prepared for the SAT he did not need to prepare again.

His scores were pretty similar although he actually did slightly better on the PSAT, 1500. Hopefully he can repeat it next year.

He used Khan Academy for his prep and it worked out very well.

Thanks! And...I immediately forgot my log in after posting, haha.

Thanks! It says PSA/NMSQT on the college board site, so I guess I have my answer. I guess my kiddo could also be taking a 4 AP exams this year since he's taking 4 AP classes?

PSAT 10 and PSAT/NMSQT are exactly the same, except the 10 is taken in spring of 10th grade (and has percentiles accordingly), and the NMSQT is taken in fall of 10th or 11th grade (and has norms accordingly). If you take it in the fall, it is the NMSQT by definition, regardless of nominal grade. There are norms for nationally representative 10th-, and 11th-graders, and taken from actual test-takers.

https://collegereadiness.collegeboa...ing-the-tests/compare-psat-nmsqt-psat-10

https://collegereadiness.collegeboard.org/pdf/psat-nmsqt-understanding-scores.pdf