Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Copying from the board

DS is in 7th grade. He does really well in most areas and really likes school. But he has always had trouble copying things from the board into his notebook.

This year, he is required to copy a list of the day's work into the calendar book (called agenda) that he is required to have. This isn't his homework assignment he is supposed to be writing. It is just a list of what they will be doing in class.

He was supposed to do this every year, but it was not tied to the grade. He thought it was useless and never did it. This year he says it is part of the grade and is very worried that he will not be able to get it copied.

His handwriting is fine and he can write his own stories or answers without problems. It is the issue of copying verbatum from the board that is the problem.

We saw an optometrist who gave us eye exercises for convergence insufficiency. This has helped with copying page to page but not with board to page. Some of it is just that it is boring and he thinks it's stupid. I do tend to agree. I want him to spend his time keeping track of his homework, not what they did in class. But I doubt I have much say in this.

Does anyone have any insight into this? Any strategies for getting it done as painlessly as possible.

DS does not have any formally diagnosed 2E issues, but probably has some level of ADD.

I think that learning to copy something verbatim is very important. Here's why:

1. When kids start subjects like algebra, they have to copy complex polynomials and suchlike from a textbook. If they don't get the information exactly right, they get the problem wrong.

2. This skill is also important when you have to copy directions to get from one location to another, when you have to pay a bill etc.

3. When made to copy something verbatim, you are forced to look at every detail of what you're copying. This helps develop attention to detail and hopefully makes the process become more second-nature.

That said, the teacher would do her students a big favor by explaining her reasons for having her students do this. When it was explained to my DS-then-7, his attitude about it changed and he started trying harder.

Just my two cents; take it for what it's worth.

Val

Val, you make good points, but as technology invades our lives more and more each day, I think/hope some of the issues you mention might fade in importance...(I am thinking of digital cameras, the web, smart boards in classrooms, laptops, blackberries and other organizer tools, etc.)

The point about developing attention to detail would surely still apply, but I think there must be many more interesting ways to develop this skill.

Acs -

Having a very similar sounding child, I would be tempted to find out how much not doing the copying would affect his grade, in a respectful manner of course. If it was just going to be a few points off...maybe just take the hit.
Some teachers might take offense at this, but if you make it clear that there are some slight issues with tracking (if that's the right term), perhaps it will soften the blow.

My first reaction to the question of copying from the board was that it seemed like mindless busywork. The teacher is trying to focus the kids on a sequence of events by making them write the information down. But you make some very good points, Val. In college, which is a long, long way off for a 7th grader, I had to become exceptionally skilled at writing complex physics and math equations from professors who could fill blackboards faster than I could every have imagined humanly possible. It is a skill that must be learned and practiced. Now, whether 7th grade is an appropriate place to start, I don't know?

I will say that had a similar, but different obstacle to overcome in school. I have always had a very difficult time hearing information. I must be a highly visual spatial person, since I could never process audible information. I can't hear phone numbers and understand them without writing the numbers down. I could never hear a foreign language without picturing the words appearing on an imaginary screen. Oral spelling tests were a killer for me in elementary school, since I could not hear words and write them down. I had to visualize them in order to process the information. And I remember breaking down in tears in 4th grade because I could not complete the weekly oral multiplication timed test, where the teacher would say the problems (5x4), (9x8), 6x4) and the student would be required to write the answers at a fairly fast pace.

I still struggle with it, but I found that constant practice is the only thing that trains my brain to accept audio information. In college, I found that I had to learn to write not only all of the physics equations on the board, but also what the professor was saying as he filled up blackboard after blackboard. That is where the true gold mine of information was hidden.

So maybe times are advancing to the point where technology can compensate for these areas where individuals struggle. But life is much easier if you tackle these things head on, IMHO.

Maybe you can help him practice by copying lists of things that truly interest him? Step by step instructions for assembling something, programming something, cooking something? Find his passion and turn it around until you can use it to further a goal?

Val,
DS has already completed High School Algebra and is starting on Geometry this year. He can and does copy pretty accurately when he had a good reason for it. But it is hard for him.

To start each day with writing down what they will be doing uses up his energy and good will. To give you an example of what he wrote in his agenda last year: "Today I will compare and contrast the movie and the story for the The Nightingale. I will read Aida for comprehension. I will view the film of version of The Nightingaleand create a Venn diagram. I will predict, ask, and summarize." He has about 3 minutes to do this. The teacher says that they have to write it down so their parents know what they are doing in class. DS is a chatterbox and he tells me what he does in class. I do not need him to write it in his agenda. He also has a number of unusual classes in different parts of the building and is typically later than most kids getting into class (for example, this year he is taking the bus back from the high school and comes into class late every day but is still expected to copy into his agenda!)

So I am not arguing for not teaching him copying skills. He is copying and getting better at it. But to copy this much information for no reason is a hard way for him to start his day.

Chris, I am thinking that he might just take the hit. I think that 7th grade is an excellent time to start making decisions about what is actually important, prioritizing, and dealing with consequences for those decisions. If he gets a low grade in 7th grade English, it probably won't end his academic career!

Still, if anyone has any suggestions about how to make copying easier, I know he would be interested in hearing them.

Could he write down a modified form? The first think I notice is all the wasted words there. Notes are meant to remind you of something already in your memory, not to replace your memory.

If I were writing the notes for myself, here's how I'd write them:

compare/contrast movie vs. story: Nightingale
Venn the film
Aida for comprehension
predict
ask
summarize

It's faster, easier, and conveys all the same info, especially if he tells you about it all anyway. (Maybe the teacher is assuming kids aren't talking!)

Would this be an acceptable compromise, perhaps, if the goal is to communicate with parents?

Yeah, Kriston, I suggested that. It seems like a great idea. I know I process information more by paraphrasing and summarizing than by copying verbatim. Engaging his brain in the activity would address the ADD problem, I would think.

But he tells me that the teachers want it verbatim. However, if the choice is between summary or not at all, then it seems like summary is better. I will suggest that again.

Thanks!

OK, MON, I won't tell him that you recommended it. I'll just tell him that I know of someone who did it!

The agenda space is in columns with 3 days lined up on the page. So each column is only 1-2 inches wide. Each subject box has only about an inch of height and has 3 lines to write on. This may make the writing without looking technique more challenging.

Actually, the more I look at the confined space he has to write in, the clearer it becomes that this really isn't sufficient for a kid (with a dull pencil) to be working in. Poor kid!

Oh, acs! I completely misunderstood the question. I assumed that it was a list of items that would be covered for the day, which is more along the lines of what Kriston suggested. I was picturing something along the lines of:

Math assignment, pages 294-303
LA: Aida, compare and contrast
etc....

All of those extra words seem quite pointless. Maybe the teacher should also have them write how they feel about each assignment too. <snicker!>
And she is assigning a grade to this?

This should not be for the parent's benefit. If she wants to communicate with the parents, then she should post it on her web site, instead of making the kids write it down. Our DS's teachers post daily assignment on their web sites. Kids should be focused instead on activities that activity contribute to their learning.

I think you're right. And I don't have any other suggestions that haven't already been made.

Maybe he is misunderstanding? Or perhaps the teacher would be more flexible if you approached her. Has it been determined whether or not it's a physical problem or an "I don't want to do it because it doesn't make sense for me" issue?

If it's a physical difficulty I don't see why the teacher and you couldn't come to an agreement on how to accomplish this in reasonable way, given his situation.

If's purely not wanting to do it and you allow for natural consequences, ie. poor grade, will that be a deterent? Sometimes our view of a consequence isn't seen as a consequence at all by the child.

Good questions, Neato. I don't really have good answers.

In previous years, he has told me that it has to be exactly as written, but there have been no actual consequences for not doing it. So I don't really know what was said. He never got nervous before this year.

This is the first year where he has said that it is part of the grade and that has him nervous. I am hoping that the small amount of anxiety it is causing him might actually make this a teachable moment, a chance for him to try new approaches (like summarizing if they let him or copying without looking down!). Maybe he has matured to the point where it isn't as hard as before. I do want him to try!

We do not have any formal diagnosis, but I suspect there might be some physical or learning issue. He is a really good kid who tries to do whatever is asked of him. But he doesn't just roll over and play dead if there is a problem. He is really good at negotiating whatever he needs from the teachers without involving me. So when he comes home saying that he is having trouble with something, I tend to take it seriously. But I just have my mom-instint and not an actual diagnosis.

Well I say trust your mom instinct. I don't always trust mine, but I'm learning. DD6 kept telling people at school, I can't do that. Well I was getting mad cause I saw how smart she was and I thought she was just taking advantage of her cuteness factor to get out of stuff she didn't want to do.

I was always gentle with her but I did ask her not to tell the school she couldn't do something that we both knew she could and inside I WAS frustrated.

Now it all makes sense after seeing the Dr. for developmental optometry. We find out she needs glasses, is farsighted and was doing that convergence thing you and Doodlebug mentioned. Plus she does have a visual discrepency. In fact in two areas she is in the .2%. That's right, I put a period in front of that 2! OUCH!

Super bright kids are SUCH HIGH COMPENSATORS, it's SO easy to miss stuff. Realistically, the kid shouldn't have been able to read much at all! And she was reading well, she just didn't like to(Wow, I wouldn't have either!) So from now on if something doesn't smell right, I'm probably going to check it out. I don't see the harm.
And the good news is the prognosis is great with the visual therapy.

Maybe it wouldn't hurt to check in with teacher and make sure you know the real deal.

Moms know! They just do!

(Except when denial--GT or otherwise--keeps them from admitting something, of course...)

DS, DH, and I were discussing the problem some more today. It seems that the problem is DS's working memory. The working memory is what holds the info as it is moved from the board to the paper.

The two solutions--writing while still looking at the board, and paraphrasing--by pass the working memory. The disrepency between DS's VCI and WM was something like 50 points on the WISC! (Although on the SB5 which has a more "intersting" WM task, he ceilinged the WM.) But for boring tasks his
WM is not very good and this is a boring task.

DS was feeling more optimistic today, that summarizing would be acceptable. So he may not have to decide about "consequences."