Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion The price is too high!

I would say that those people are mistaken since traditionally public school included a decent dose of character building, along with music and art before budget elements gutted most public school systems. These seem to be the purview primarily of private or religious schools these days.

But To bring it back to the price of college tuition - my original point remains which is that we're capable of largely funding public universities and that we should consider college education as a necessary extension of the public education system (for those capable of meeting the entrance requirements).

For clarity, if you didn't mean "workforce ready", would you explain what you did mean by "the needs of the students it's "educating"," in the context of your post upthread?

It is part of the public education system, however the taxpayer money does not make the cost of tuition free at point of service, to students. To be clear, are you in favor of free tuition at US public universities?

Most people who talk about the amazing work ethic of previous generations fail to mention that those jobs paid, on an adjusted basis, a heckuva lot more then than they do now.

It's amazing how much work ethic you can get from people when you make it worth the effort.

The motivating effect of capitalism...?
Dare we imagine how unmotivated our populous may be under socialism?

The amount of work ethic you can get from people when you make it worth the effort reminds me of sanne's posts upthread, about creative ways in which some individuals have paid for college... and Old Dad's posts about military service.

You were speaking of financial literacy... now jumped to character building, art, and music.

Bloviate, much?

A common opinion among Americans is that asking or expecting the government to help pay for certain stuff is somehow bad and leads to laziness and dependency on handouts and etc. This idea seems to be especially true when the topic is education and healthcare, two things that are essential to the overall success of a society. It does not seem to be applied as regards tax cuts or subsidies to large corporations or the wealthiest.

Look: a government isn't just there to raise an army and collect taxes. For example, the US Constitution states that our government is of, by, and FOR the people. It's supposed to do stuff that benefits the society, including passing laws, building roads, running schools, and a zillion other things.

A major flaw in the American argument is that education benefits the individual, e.g.:


Personal responsibility! is the American rallying cry that leads to a place where people are out for themselves and whoever they decide they should help. This gives us lopsided results and terrible inequalities. Plus, it lets us end up with funding for public schools being cut, and with those funds being replaced by middle to upper class parents. Working class and impoverished parents can't afford that, and the schools become unequal. This is a good example of where this philosophy has failed. Well, for some.

Another is that all this personal responsibility has taken us to ~$1.4 trillion in student loan debt. That money is going to banks. The debt is keeping people from buying houses, cars, clothing, vacations, and a long list of other stuff. It's damaging the economy.

When a person needs 6 or even 8 years to get through college because he has to work part-time at a low-wage job, that's time that could have spent been contributing to the science or the arts, and the economy. Had the person been employed at a good job for those 2-4 years, he'd have had more cash for spending and paid more taxes. But instead, he's yoked to 10-15 years of debt. being a serf isn't in my definition of "personal responsibility." Plus, multiply that one guy by 45,000,000 loan holders, and a fortune has been squandered. But the banks and the colleges sure must be happy. Hey, let's raise fees another 5%!

I'm at a loss to understand a philosophy that claims "pay your own way for college because...personal responsibility," but that doesn't object to guvmint funding for roads, streetlights, the police, libraries, the FAA, the fire department, the sewer system, and so on. Not to mention K-12 schools.

While I don't think college should be free for everyone, I think that tuition at any public tertiary institution should essentially be doable on the proceeds of a low-wage 12-week summer job with maybe 5-8 weekly hours thrown in during the school year.

But unfortunately, the US is and has been a short-sighted nation and I suspect that this argument will mostly fall on deaf ears. Because... small guvmint (except for the programs that benefit me). Because...personal responsibility (especially as regards to lowering my tax bill by cutting programs that I don't need). Because... nanny states are bad (except for intrusive laws and bad lawmaker behavior that I happen to agree with).

The bottom line is that we undermine the entire nation when we yoke millenials (and now the next group) to crushing debt. A society is made out of the people who inhabit it. If we want our society to succeed, individual people need to succeed. That can't happen if millions are yoked to debt and have to pick 2 of the following three each month: 1) buy needed medicine or medical care, 2) pay rent, 3) buy food.

Our priorities are a mess, and I'm sorry that so many Americans buy into ideas that are essentially destroying this society, in order to enrich a very tiny sliver of people. Everyone will suffer eventually, but again, people are too short-sighted to see that. Sad!

Val, I believe you are incorrect.
1) The phrase "of, by, and FOR the people" is not found in the US Constitution, but in Lincoln's Gettysburg Address: 2)The Constitution gives the federal government no role in running schools.
Official analysis of the 10th Amendment at this PDF. US Dept of Ed statement on "running schools" below:
Thank you for sharing your ideology, Val, however please realize that those who disagree with you do not necessarily have a "flaw in their argument".

Having good jobs available which require post-secondary education is a function of a healthy economy. Unfortunately, in the US economy, many jobs are being replaced by technology, leaving jobs in the service sector, and causing a job search to resemble a game of musical chairs.

It is my understanding that US taxpayer federal funding of K-12 schools is in response to some individuals asking for schools in various states (with different economies and costs of living) to have equalized funding. The fact that this federal funding has been granted does not necessarily mean that we ought to enlarge the scope of federal funding to cover other entities. Especially at a time when the economy does not have a plethora of jobs available requiring 4 year degrees.

"We" don't yoke students to college loans. They choose it of their own free will IF they believe that attending college with a college loan is the best option or least-worst option available to them.

May I ask why you choose to live in the US if you dislike it so? After moving here, did you become a citizen? While everyone is entitled to share an opinion (1st Amendment), it may be beneficial for readers of these posts to have transparency regarding the source of the views expressed.

What we may have is a proportion of people standing by the ideas which have built the American Dream of an upwardly mobile society, and others who wish to change society... in ways which they may deem more fair or equitable... but which also entail increased governmental control, unprecedented data collection, increased National Debt, decreased personal liberty.

Those of each viewpoint could call the other short-sighted, and claim the other is destroying society (as you have done). However name-calling is a negative and emotional approach, it does not share facts to build a common knowledge base or demonstrate respect for views other than one's own.

History has shown negative results/consequences of economic and political systems which usurp citizens' rights. This is summarized in the old adage: Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

We agree to disagree.

I did explain it. Here's what I typed:

Taxpayer money makes education free through the 12th grade. Are you drawing an arbitrary line for educating the populace.

As for free public universities - I thought I'd been clear that we should do it since we can do it by re-allocating existing spending.